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Social Security Reform
    #3895211 -

What are y'alls opinions on the social security reform ideas? Do you support the private accounts and changes proposed by the right? Or the left's ideas of leaving things the way they are with the federal government running things?

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #3895284 -

It's going to be a painful transition, but ultimately, I support freedom of choice, and don't have faith in the future of SS. I was actually just reading this policy paper from the Cato Institute before I clicked this thread.


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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Silversoul]
    #3895350 -

From what I've read Bush's supposed privatization is far from it.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: newuser1492]
    #3895387 -

Well, Bush's plan is far from full privatization. I think there are only a few private accounts you're allowed to invest in, which is a bit unfair to the market, which thrives on competition. And also, it's only part of your social security money that you're allowed to invest.


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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #3895703 -

Bush's plan is expensive and stupid.

The Democrats are pretending there is no problem.

Both sides are flat-out wrong.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3896671 -

RandalFlagg said:
Bush's plan is expensive and stupid.

The Democrats are pretending there is no problem.

Both sides are flat-out wrong.


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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3896838 -

RandalFlagg said:
Bush's plan is expensive and stupid.

The Democrats are pretending there is no problem.

Both sides are flat-out wrong.


My thoughts exactly, especially concerning Bush's plan. I just don't see the logic of taking money out of a program in order to "save" it....

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #3896863 -

i'm 100% in favor of privatizing social security. Social security doesn't make shit for money (hovers around a 2-3% or so in interest). You basically don't make shit the way it is now adjusted for inflation which is about the same percentage wise.. There are low risk bonds that are just as safe/risky (social security is NOT 100% guarenteed) that will bring you 4-5% minimum.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #3896995 -

My idea of a saftey net is a cot and 3 bowls of soup a day.  :hellfire:

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: DieCommie]
    #3897000 -

No soup for you!


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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Silversoul]
    #3897109 -

nazi...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3898416 -

that policy is great for people that have the money to put into there own privatizing social security account..what about the people that dont have money and wont put money into a account for there future cus they need it now..then what will happen...so many people will have nothing for there future ...i know other countries that have this privatizing social security and most older people of in poverty...then what...more and more americans are losing there jobs and getting paod less and everything is raising in price...


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"Six words: drop out, turn on, then come back and tune it in -and then drop out again, and turn on, and tune it back in-it's a rhythm- most of us think God made this universe in nature-subject object-predicate sentences-turn on, tune in, drop out- period, end of paragraph. Turn the page- it's all a rhythm- it's all a beat. You turn on, you find it inside, and then you have to come back (since you can't stay high all the time) and you have to build a better model. But don't get caught - don't get hooked - don't get attracted by the thing you're building, cause... you gotta drop out again. It's a cycle. Turn on, tune in, drop out. Keep it going, keep it going- the nervous system works that way. gotta keep it flowing- keep it flowing.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: starptv23]
    #3898524 -

Social security taxes weigh heavier on the worker than just about any other tax. Not to mention that they affect the employer, reducing the amount they can afford to pay or the number of workers they can afford to hire. This would give workers back the amount of money that's taken from them and allow them to invest it in more profitable accounts. It seems to me that privatization would benefit the poor the most.


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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: starptv23]
    #3898537 -


that policy is great for people that have the money to put into there own privatizing social security account..what about the people that dont have money and wont put money into a account for there future cus they need it now..


That is not how Bush's proposed plan would work.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Silversoul]
    #3898592 -


Social security taxes weigh heavier on the worker than just about any other tax.

The younger generation will be completely boned by Social Security if it stays as it is. Not only will we pay social security payroll taxes, we will also pay the federal income tax that will go to pay back Social Security for all of the money that was looted out of it. It will be like being double taxed. Also, we will not get the full benefits of Social Security because there won't be enough money. Our generation(early 20's) is going to get absolutely screwed over.


It seems to me that privatization would benefit the poor the most.

Smart privatization might work. Bush's plan isn't smart because it relies on borrowing yet more money.

I think we should just raise the taxable income for Social Security(right now you only pay Social Security taxes on the first 80 some thousand that you make). If we were to raise the tax ceiling on payroll taxes, we could finance private accounts.

Edited by RandalFlagg (03/10/05 03:59 PM)

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3899145 -

Yeah the ceiling on SS is fucked up. Bill Gates pays like 0.01% (just a random guess) of his income to SS and still gets to collect like every other poor person who pays 12%.

I personally think SS should be completely dismantled and merged with welfare because that is what it has become anyways. Our money isn't sitting somewhere collecting interest, it has become part of the government funds just like our taxes that go to welfare. It is basically welfare part II for old people but the tax just has its own special category. Taxes would simply be raised across the board and I think we would end up paying less, giving us the ability to not only set up private accounts but to also do whatever the hell we want with that money and still have a saftey net.

I think we could save tons of money by simply expanding welfare to the old and abolishing SS...but of course my opinion usually draws obscenities and even threats of violence when I try to debate with any liberals. Sadly, I think it really comes down to the fact that old people just don't want to be on "welfare" simply because of the stigma of the word.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Catalysis]
    #3899657 -

Catalysis said:
I think we could save tons of money by simply expanding welfare to the old and abolishing SS...but of course my opinion usually draws obscenities and even threats of violence when I try to debate with any liberals. Sadly, I think it really comes down to the fact that old people just don't want to be on "welfare" simply because of the stigma of the word.


You have nailed this perfectly. Limit it just to the old who need it. I don't care how they feel about welfare, if they've been counting on soc sec to provide for them they've probably been on welfare before.
I'm almost 50. If you promise not to steal any more of my money than you can fucking keep what you've already ripped off. Leave my kids money alone too.

You're complaint about income ceiling is, however, yet another not even thinly veiled fuck the rich tax. Anybody who pays the max soc sec tax is already getting fucked in biblical proportions as it is. Do not ever think that taxing rich people is a limitless resource to pay for entitlements. You may think socialist Europe is a fine model but the shit is about to hit the fan there in such a manner as to make our little soc sec problem look like a flea bite.

By the way, the best way to tell that you're on to something good is when the barking moonbats scream loudest.


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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3899748 -



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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3899845 -

Quote:
You're complaint about income ceiling is, however, yet another not even thinly veiled fuck the rich tax.


No, im not going that far. I shouldn't have used such an extreme example. I agree that the "rich" are getting fucked on social security as well but my statement is more easily related to by the more liberal minded. Just eliminate SS, raise taxes proportionate to income to expand welfare and i think everyone could be legitimately satisfied.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Catalysis]
    #3899880 -


I think we could save tons of money by simply expanding welfare to the old and abolishing SS...but of course my opinion usually draws obscenities and even threats of violence when I try to debate with any liberals.

I am currently enraged at the old people's lobby. They don't seem to give a fuck that all of the stuff that they want for free is going to bankrupt the younger generations.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3900292 -

That's human nature.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3910075 -

zappaisgod said:
Catalysis said:
I think we could save tons of money by simply expanding welfare to the old and abolishing SS...but of course my opinion usually draws obscenities and even threats of violence when I try to debate with any liberals. Sadly, I think it really comes down to the fact that old people just don't want to be on "welfare" simply because of the stigma of the word.


You have nailed this perfectly. Limit it just to the old who need it. I don't care how they feel about welfare, if they've been counting on soc sec to provide for them they've probably been on welfare before.
I'm almost 50. If you promise not to steal any more of my money than you can fucking keep what you've already ripped off. Leave my kids money alone too.

You're complaint about income ceiling is, however, yet another not even thinly veiled fuck the rich tax. Anybody who pays the max soc sec tax is already getting fucked in biblical proportions as it is. Do not ever think that taxing rich people is a limitless resource to pay for entitlements. You may think socialist Europe is a fine model but the shit is about to hit the fan there in such a manner as to make our little soc sec problem look like a flea bite.

By the way, the best way to tell that you're on to something good is when the barking moonbats scream loudest.


I like your thoughts. But what is to stop old people from getting assets out of their name so that they can qualify for a government handout? It will happen.

I am for social security reform and private accounts.

One of the things that I don't like is when people complain that Bush's plan is too expensive but yet also complain that they system is solvent until 2042 or 2052. They act like we have so much money in the system as it is, but they also acknowledge that if we let people invest their own money right now the system couldn't afford it. It is either one or the other.

The shit is going to hit the fan, and it won't be in 2042 or 2052. It will be within the next two decades. The sooner we act upon this the better.

People bash the two party system, but it wouldn't be so bad if we had two actual parties. Republicans are the party of ideas. Sometimes those ideas might not be so great, but at least they have ideas.

Democrats propose no alternatives. They will never again achieve power until they have a gameplan. We would all be better off if they did, because competition makes us better.

Before Argentina's collapse, payroll taxes for social security amounted to 50% in income. We can solve our current crises by rasing payroll taxes, but that will only make the long term problem worse. Everytime that social security has faced a crisis they have hiked up the taxes and cut the benefits. That will continue to happen until the system just breaks down. You simply can't do that forever. Right now I believe that 80% of Americans pay more in FICA taxes than Federal taxes.

Say what you want, but I firmly believe that they system that we have is unsustainable.

One of the worst parts is that young people are going to pay more in taxes and get less in benefits. They are going to get screwed. The system is projected to be insolvent and bankrupt by the time our young people retire, yet some people don't think that is a crisis. It is only a crisis if you are the ones getting screwed I guess.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3910270 -

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2011

Interesting take on Social Security... very interesting.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3910299 -

This article is bullshit.


All of these claims (of crisis) are simply wrong. The Social Security Administration predicts the program will be able to fully pay all promised benefits through 2042

Only if the Federal government pays back all of the money that was stolen from Social Security. That means my generation (people in their 20's) will be double and triple taxed for Social Security. We will pay the payroll taxes and we will pay the income taxes that go to pay back the looted "Social Security trust fund". On top of that, when we are about to retire we will not even get full benefits. My generation is going to be fucked up the ass. Anybody that says any differently is wrong.


Even if Social Security did face a "crisis" that threatened to reduce benefits, Bush's plan doesn't represent a "fix" for that problem.

This I can agree with.


While Bush pointedly promises no cuts only for retirees or near-retirees, his plan will result in a 30 percent cut in guaranteed benefits for today's 25-year-old workers

So what! I can handle my money better than the government can.


?and private accounts would likely make up less than half the loss, according to calculations by the Center for Economic and Policy Research ("Basic Facts on Social Security," 11/04).

Private accounts are risky....but I doubt those pessimistic calculations that are quoted.


credited Bush with political bravery

I don't like Bush, but it does take bravery to take on such a highly popular yet highly flawed program.


for proposing this non-solution to a non-problem.

Bullshit. I don't trust Fair. They are hopeless Lefties. Reading a Fair article is like watching Fox News. You know they are both full of shit and bias.


In 1964, Barry Goldwater proposed "that Social Security be made voluntary"

I wish it was voluntary.



As an aside, I remember watching a political discussion show on one of the cable news channels. They were debating Social Security and they had some obviously liberal columnist/Radio personality from San Fransisco (gasp!). When the topic of the validity and the solvency of Social Security came up she venomously declared that the only people that would benefit would be the "fat-cat corporate investment houses" and that we as civilized people needed a socially subsidized pension plan. This is the kind of straight-jacketed "entitlement" mindset that will lead this country to bankruptcy.

Edited by RandalFlagg (03/13/05 02:06 AM)

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3910313 -

Told you it's interesting... :lol:

No real analysis as it were, just a bunch of speculations. Anyhow, what did you expect from a system who's funding isn't actually laid in stone (allowing funds to be taken from it)?



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3910335 -


Told you it's interesting...

Its more laughable than interesting.


No real analysis as it were, just a bunch of speculations.

Exactly. And they insist on using the same old tired refutations of Social Security privatization (the investment houses will get even richer!! blah blah blah!!).


Anyhow, what did you expect from a system who's funding isn't actually laid in stone (allowing funds to be taken from it)?

I do not expect much.

Social Security will be a mess. Medicare and Medicaid will be huge messes. The liberals are absolutely afraid to tell people these blunt truths. They rely on the "poor" and "elderly" lobbies to get voted in. They pander to these groups by giving them free stuff. They don't want to tell people that all this free stuff CAN'T be afforded in the next thirty or so years.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want to give medical care and a check every month to people, it will cost money. Where will that money come from? It will come from people like me who pay taxes. What happens when all of my money has to be taken away to pay for all of these entitlement programs because of a huge demographic bubble? That's right.....me and people my age will get fucked.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3910342 -

:thumbup: too true :sad:

The good thing is... that a large portion of those in my generation are concerned with other things involving popular culture among other things...

So they won't realize that they are getting fucked until they... actually are fucked :lol:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3910353 -


that a large portion of those in my generation are concerned with other things involving popular culture among other things... So they won't realize that they are getting fucked until they... actually are fucked

Sad but true. Do you think the rank and file Romans knew when things were about to fall apart? Call me an alarmist if you must. I don't think things are going to "fall apart", but I do think that my generation is going to get fucked. We will have to take care of too many old people and the value of our saved wealth is going to evaporate because of inflation.

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Re: Social Security Reform [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3910363 -

:sad: I agree, that's the sad part... :lol:

I suppose this is the "American Way" though. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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