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InvisibleSilversoul
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Do bacteria think?
    #3881695 - 03/07/05 08:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Short, but interesting article
Quote:

As one goes step-by-step down the ladder of biological complexity, one discovers that flatworms, plants, and even bacteria display purposeful behavior. Bacteria, which are usually regarded as fairly inert when it comes to responding to environmental pressures, actually react in different ways to dozens of different stimuli. This ability at the very least requires sensory equipment, internal clocks, a memory, and a decision-making capability.

If bacterial activity is all preprogrammed (the reductionist view), are not humans also preprogrammed? Human programs are larger and more complex, of course, but still devoid of "thinking." Conversely, if humans really do think; that is, transcend preprogramming (free will, if you wish), then bacteria must also think. The third possibility is that at some step in the ladder of life, "higher" life forms begin to think. There is little evidence that life is split so profoundly between thinkers and non-thinkers.




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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3881723 - 03/07/05 08:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Everything living with a brain can think IMPO.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Fliquid]
    #3881729 - 03/07/05 08:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

our gell like brains have nearly no moving parts and become good substrate for image storage and consideration.

a mass of bacteria seethes too much - too unsteady
and each is too small a gell bag on its own to get much of a picture storage


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3881748 - 03/07/05 09:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well.. Live in areas where live should not be possible has been proven possible. So for me it would be logical that bacteria with small gell bags are able to think, even if it is in a very low IQ.



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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Fliquid]
    #3881753 - 03/07/05 09:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What if our "thouht" proces doesn't occur in the brain....but comes from our "spiritual" awareness?

That would explain why ALL living things display some form of "intelligence"..... even tho they don't have a highly evolved brain like we do.


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: niteowl]
    #3881762 - 03/07/05 09:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
What if our "thouht" proces doesn't occur in the brain....but comes from our "spiritual" awareness?

That would explain why ALL living things display some form of "intelligence"..... even tho they don't have a highly evolved brain like we do.




Might also be possible, if you see if from that point of view.
But I personally don't see things that way. I do believe in energy of beeing, but not in the spirit. I like to see this from a more scientific point of view.  :smirk:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Fliquid]
    #3881772 - 03/07/05 09:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fliquid said:
I like to see this from a more scientific point of view.




What about this...
There is little evidence that life is split so profoundly between thinkers and non-thinkers.


The current "scientific" view is that we "think" with our brain. If a bacteria (which dosent have a brain) is showing signs of "thinking".

What is it "thinking" with?


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: niteowl]
    #3881782 - 03/07/05 09:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The point of view I see it from:

So.. If 1 + 1 = 2 then nature has proven that even if 1 + 1 = 2 sometimes nature makes it 1 + 0 = 2.

This makes thinking without a brain possible. So it's both possible with or without.

Thinking outside the box here.  :smirk:


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Fliquid]
    #3881787 - 03/07/05 09:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1+1=3 too...

but yah,no bacteria do not think because if they did they would have seen the Listerine commin'  :ooo: instead....they were...at least(99.9%) killed. :grin:

maybe 0.01% of 'em do.


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Edited by uriahchase (03/07/05 09:44 AM)


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3881800 - 03/07/05 09:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The bigger the processor/brain the larger the processing capacity, bacteria is small.
So they are not able of any strong strategies of attack.
They can only do simple things with their thinking processors.
But they can still think.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Fliquid]
    #3881831 - 03/07/05 10:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

they do process but less information -
they do not stage image sequences like we do.

non-gel and non-local thought content is not actual thought but signal or image fragments which we can integrate.

I am sure bacteria integrate stuff but it is at the level of chemical concentrations and energy ramping and fluctuation.

at best ->"eat eat eat" but maybe not so erudite.


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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3881839 - 03/07/05 10:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So.. How would we see this compared to computers?  :smirk:


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Fliquid]
    #3881886 - 03/07/05 10:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What is it to think?

Thought can be the most miniscul of internal nervous system communications. If bacteria have a nervous system of sorts, then chances are, they have some form of thought process.

Thought and intelligence are not the same thing. Intelligence is not required for thought, but thought is necessarily required for intelligence.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Darcho]
    #3881898 - 03/07/05 10:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1.maybe we need to define thought
and
2.there is no nervous system in a bacterium
and a group of bacteria do not hold still long enough to constitute a nervous system as an aggregate of potentially conductive signal transmitters.
and
3.computers can associate images and can present media masks in sequence, so it is more likey that they could be arranged as thinking machines than bacteria.


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3881907 - 03/07/05 10:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I certainly don't think that bacteria are capable of "thought" in anything resembling a human fashion.

It is blatantly obvious that the human brain is either the seat of all thought/consciousness or it is the pathway by wich thought/consciousness is expressed. Without the brain - consciousness does not occur. End of story.

Bacteria, being only a single cell, are incabable of the kind of large-scale organization seen in the human brain (and other organisms with a highly developed CNS). Therefor I see no way that a bacteria could be said to "think".

Personally, I think that a bacteria runs almost entirely on pre-programmed response, perhaps with a minimal cabability for basic learning. Bacteria are incredibly simple organisms, when layed beside a human being, so I just don't think the complexity exists within them for complex learning/thought processes.

A bacteria's "thought" would go something like:
"there is food ahead -> energy stores are OK -> no need to get food"

It's a very logical cause->effect chain.

I think that humans function this way as well, and that "free choice" is merely an illusion brought on by our multi-layered and multi-faceted thought process (in essence, we trick ourselves into thinking we are not simply reacting to external stimuli).


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: trendal]
    #3881934 - 03/07/05 11:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

even simpler
eat eat eat
too big?---divide---
eat eat eat eat
all preprogrammed

no resources?---dry-up---


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3881938 - 03/07/05 11:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly!

The point I was going for is that any "thoughts" a bacterium might have would follow a well-defined path. Not "free thought", as we like to believe we have.


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And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized


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OfflineWorldbridger
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: niteowl]
    #3881952 - 03/07/05 11:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
What if our "thouht" proces doesn't occur in the brain....but comes from our "spiritual" awareness?

That would explain why ALL living things display some form of "intelligence"..... even tho they don't have a highly evolved brain like we do.




I've heard this one before, but if thought process doesn't occur in the brain, where does it occur? And where are the spiritual spaces of awareness? The scientific facts are way to great to not think that thought doesn't come from the brain.


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OfflineWorldbridger
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: trendal]
    #3881967 - 03/07/05 11:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have a huge cognitive science encyclopedia that has an enormous amount of information on thought process, way too much for me to read and copy down here. All is what I do know is there are many kind of levels of thought processes, at least in humans. In the case of bateria, there would certainly be thought process on a very low level, basic survival pre program settings. It wouldn't have any self consiousness thought process. It only would do work for higher thought process funcioning life forms.


Edited by Worldbridger (03/07/05 01:53 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do bacteria think? [Re: trendal]
    #3881968 - 03/07/05 11:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Exactly!

The point I was going for is that any "thoughts" a bacterium might have would follow a well-defined path. Not "free thought", as we like to believe we have.



No one's saying bacteria are complex. The point is that we have complex thoughts because we're complex creatures, but that doesn't say anything about "free thought." Just that our "programming" is a lot more complex. Bacteria may think "eat eat eat," but it has to navigate to the food, right? And if food is in various different directions, it has a choice of where to go first.


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