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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3856070 - 03/02/05 09:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

why are you explaining this to me? do you know where I stand on this issue?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehardcorey
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3868346 - 03/04/05 04:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)


Apparently, the Earth's magnetic field has decreased by 10% in the last 10 years. I'm an electrical engineer. During my studies in sub-atomic physics, I learned that a particles velocity can be effected by magnetic fields. I believe it's possible that more of the Sun's radiation is penetrating the Earth's magnetic field due to it being weaker. If more radiation hits the Earth, shouldn't that also increase the overall temperature of the Earth and can global warming be contributed to this? I've been bouncing this idea in my head for a while now and I can't see why this MAY not be true.


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InvisibleCalifornia
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: hardcorey]
    #3868519 - 03/04/05 05:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Industrial emissions do the job that our now mainly dormant volcanoes did. Just a thought/theory.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: California]
    #3868574 - 03/04/05 05:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you quantify the heat released by emissions and measure the course of history, man can only be attributed to affect the earth to a fractional degree. Most of the heat produced from our emissions are lost on a daily basis.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: hardcorey]
    #3869098 - 03/04/05 07:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hardcorey said:

Apparently, the Earth's magnetic field has decreased by 10% in the last 10 years. I'm an electrical engineer. During my studies in sub-atomic physics, I learned that a particles velocity can be effected by magnetic fields. I believe it's possible that more of the Sun's radiation is penetrating the Earth's magnetic field due to it being weaker. If more radiation hits the Earth, shouldn't that also increase the overall temperature of the Earth and can global warming be contributed to this? I've been bouncing this idea in my head for a while now and I can't see why this MAY not be true.




First off, I'm pretty sure the field has weakened 10% over the past 150 years. And even that number is suspect.

That said, I think the problem here is that it would have to be a two step process. During a pole reversal, more radiation reaches the center of the Earth instead of being drawn to the poles. This radiation could do a lot of damage to our electrical technology. But it couldn't directly warm the Earth, as it's above the heat and visibility spectrums. The danger is that enough of this radiation could eat away at our atmosphere, which would undoubtedly lead to warming. So this could eventually happen. But it would probably occur when the field is at its weakest, which will be at least 4,000 years from now (assuming we're even in the beginning phase of a reversal!). I'd be more concerned about the increased volcanic and tectonic activity that theoretically occurs throughout a reversal.


--------------------
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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3871185 - 03/05/05 02:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Most of the heat produced from our emissions are lost on a daily basis.




What do you mean lost?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinehardcorey
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Gijith]
    #3872197 - 03/05/05 10:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:



That said, I think the problem here is that it would have to be a two step process. During a pole reversal, more radiation reaches the center of the Earth instead of being drawn to the poles.






Instead of, "drawn to the poles", do you mean, "deflected from the poles"?

Quote:

This radiation could do a lot of damage to our electrical technology. But it couldn't directly warm the Earth, as it's above the heat and visibility spectrums.





I disagree. I'm posting this thread in Politics, Activism and Law so here's the law:

E=hf where h is Plank's constant, f is frequency and E is energy which is a function of heat. C=fl where C is the speed of light, f is again frequency and l is wavelength. Therefore, you can't say that wavelength is not related to heat. If we're talking about gamma radiation, UV or just plain visible light, they all carry heat in the form of oscillating energy of the particles and the Earth is susceptible to heat changes from any of them.

Quote:


The danger is that enough of this radiation could eat away at our atmosphere, which would undoubtedly lead to warming. So this could eventually happen.





I agree. Another Internet colleague put it best so please allow me to share his thoughts because I find them interesting:


True, if the external magnetic field is stronger. Each particle is its own little monopole magnetic. A series of magnetic fields will accelerate a given particle.

Heat causes a deterioration of a magnetic field.

Increased heat further agitates the electrons in an atom, making them less susceptible, i.e., more resistant to aligning or flowing. For example: The current carrying capacity, "ampacity," of copper wire is derated because of heat. Because copper wire above absolute zero has resistance to current flow, heat will be generated when current flows. This is the I^2R loss.

Because the Sun is about 10% warmer than it was a century ago, as I recall (from reading of course!), it is reasonable to expect the Earth's magnetic field to have decreased since then.

Heat causes the electrons in an atom to move farther away from the nucleus, thereby expanding and lightening the atom and any molecule it is in. That's why water vapor, a "greenhouse gas," normally heavier than air, can remain suspended. It can only be seen when it is cooler than the other gases in the atmosphere and, if not swept along by wind, will fall.



Quote:

But it would probably occur when the field is at its weakest, which will be at least 4,000 years from now (assuming we're even in the beginning phase of a reversal!).





No doubt that warming occurs more intensely as a function of the Earth magnetic field. In other words, if there were no magnetic field on Earth, our planet would be extremely hot. However, any change to the magnetic field will result in changes in temperature. I'm suggesting that a 10% may cause a slight change which is what we've seen in the last 100 years. When I say a slight change, I mean the reported 3.6 degrees (from last I heard). I think it's unwise to say the magnetic field/temperature theory is an all or nothing thing. Just like anything else in nature, cause and effects are incremental.


Edited by hardcorey (03/05/05 10:02 AM)


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: hardcorey]
    #3872482 - 03/05/05 12:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

... yes, deflected from the poles. Sorry about that.


Let me try to restate my thinking here. It's been a long time since I studied any real physics, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm way off.
Okay, the only radiation that's going to affected by a changing magnetic field is alpha and beta radiation. Ionic radiation can do a lot of damage. And yes, it carries a lot of energy. But it does not heat matter.

And so I disagree that any weakening in the Earth's magnetic field is going to cause increased warming.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Offlinehardcorey
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Gijith]
    #3872524 - 03/05/05 12:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There's a thing in physics called scattering where an electron (particle) collides with another electron (particle) and energy is given off. Some of the energy is due to Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity. The well known Einstein equation E=m*c^2 describes the energy associated to mass. A not so well known Einstein equation (from vague memory) is the following: E=m*c^2+p^2/m which describes the total energy of a moving particle. The extra second term in Einstein's second equation describes the energy associated to movement of a particle. In the case of particles bombarding the Earth and scattering with local particles, the energy, in the form of heat, is what I'm saying may give rise to global warming. Scattering is a real thing and has been proved in the lab on countless occasions. In fact, as you read this, millions of electrons are being scattered on the surface of your silicon transistors in your computer. That's just the the way it is.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: hardcorey]
    #3872571 - 03/05/05 12:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hmmm.

That is interesting.

Can you tell me more about this scattering? Or do you have a good link for info on it?


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3873730 - 03/05/05 06:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Most of the heat produced from our emissions are lost on a daily basis.




What do you mean lost?




Here is a link to the basis of the global warming argument regarding the loss of heat transmissions and mankind's negligible impact on the state of affairs:
http://www.tmgnow.com/repository/global/corbyn1.html

Tectonic Expansion e.g. earthquakes/volcanoes:
http://www.tmgnow.com/repository/global/expanding_earth.html

Here is a conceptualized view of the fundamentals being omitted from most "textbook" courses:
http://www.holistic-education.org/bulletin1_1.htm (Scroll to the bottom regarding the electrical nature of the solar system, [James McCanney] It's good to have a good scientific understanding of the events, else it's jibberish)

Here is a compendium of Information who's basis relies on the previous foundations presented:

http://www.tmgnow.com/repository/repository.html

If you hold any truth to any of the mechanics presented, take a look at the link on this page involving Velikovsky: bottom of the page under: "Velikovsky Files"... quick overview, this topic and the author presents through historical considerations, e.g. ancient religious texts why Mars has no atmosphere, As Venus was an electrically charged comet (under the plasma discharge model), and essentially sucked the atmosphere from Mars, which helps to explain Venus's environment. Further, the information also suggests that the solar system wasn't all formed at one time, which is the view of modern science. Take it all with a grain of salt, remember to be skeptical of everything.

Also look at the links near the bottom of the page under the title "Seasons of the Earth". Solid foundation, and supported by various sources of scientific fact, as well as references.

P.S.
This is my truth... I'm in no way asserting it's correctness.... but to me, it makes a hell of a lot more sense in way of explaining natural phenomena, instead of the many other explanations... Mind you, it's a lot of theoritical work, but it has a solid foundation. (Believe their was a thread up the other day regarding something to the effect of selling bad science: those who go against the grain are punished) Anyhow, give it a look through; I promise nothing is explained in terms of mystical concepts of reciprocated universes and/or trans-dimensional beings from the 8th dimension that rule the land of "milk and honey" (sorry, creativity left me on that one).

Enjoy a new meme (if you haven't seen it yet) from yours truly. 

Criticisms, of it, including it's outright fallaciousness welcomed :lol:. Just explain yourself.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlinehardcorey
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Gijith]
    #3875072 - 03/05/05 11:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Hmmm.

That is interesting.

Can you tell me more about this scattering? Or do you have a good link for info on it?




Just do a quick search on google. I did a "electron scattering silicon" on google and found a ton of links:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=DVXA,DVXA:2005-06,DVXA:en&q=electron+scattering+silicon

or

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0268-1242/7/3B/081


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3881454 - 03/07/05 05:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting links but its easy to find impressive studies, theories and research to back up both sides of the arguement.


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3881592 - 03/07/05 06:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> but its easy to find impressive studies, theories and research to back up both sides of the arguement.

Exactly! Isn't science fun?! This is why the media is so horrid when it comes to using science as a scare tactic... until there has been independent peer review, which can take many years, it is only a guess.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: hardcorey]
    #3881650 - 03/07/05 07:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Apparently, the Earth's magnetic field has decreased by 10%




are you implying that man has affected the magnetic field?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Seuss]
    #3881710 - 03/07/05 08:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

To be honest, of the evidence Ive seen, I would say that evidence which supports the human interaction side of the arguement looks most impressive and likely to turn out to be correct. However I wont deny that is probabaly because my own intuition leads me to beleive that to be the case and I prefer the research that concurs with what I feel.

I think that also applies to everyone on this board.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinehardcorey
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3881889 - 03/07/05 10:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:

are you implying that man has affected the magnetic field?




No, the well accepted belief is that the Earth's magnetic field flips naturally. See the following link for more information about the cyclicial magnetic events that occurs on Earth.

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/02/27/6900064_Magnet_Pole_Shift/


Edited by hardcorey (03/07/05 10:44 AM)


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Offlinehardcorey
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3881902 - 03/07/05 10:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
To be honest, of the evidence Ive seen, I would say that evidence which supports the human interaction side of the arguement looks most impressive and likely to turn out to be correct. However I wont deny that is probabaly because my own intuition leads me to beleive that to be the case and I prefer the research that concurs with what I feel.





Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Quote:

I think that also applies to everyone on this board.




Not me. I believe the liberal media uses global warming as a public scare tactic in order to hurt businesses. Whether businesses should be hurt or not -- I don't know. I do know that as an engineer, when approaching problems such as global warming, assumption is the mother of all mistakes and any "intuition" can sometimes get in the way of truth. At this time, there is NO final proof. At this time, everyone should be open minded about all aspects of the problem because if we aren't, our actions could cause more harm than good.


Edited by hardcorey (03/07/05 10:53 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: hardcorey]
    #3881921 - 03/07/05 11:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

No, the well accepted belief is that the Earth's magnetic field flips naturally. See the following link for more information about the cyclicial magnetic events that occurs on Earth.




Oh, ok then. It seems everyone blames anything that happens on man. I'm a firm believer that global warming and cooling is a natural occurance. This does not mean that I think we shouldn't worry about pollution, rather they are two different things all together. But that's just my opinion.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Global Warming: The Final Proof? [Re: hardcorey]
    #3881954 - 03/07/05 11:21 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not me. I believe the liberal media uses global warming as a public scare tactic in order to hurt businesses.




You misunderstand. What I meant was that evidence which supports what you believe will look more impressive and convincing than the evidence that supports the contrary.

Nobody on this board has enough scientific knowledge to base their opinion solely on facts without letting their own personal preference guide them.

As for the so called liberal media I think that perception of this is dependent on your own beliefs. However, if the media really is totally liberal biased surely you should be asking yourselves why some of the most informed members of society adopt liberal beliefs!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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