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3 failed grain attempts, please help :(
    #3869053 -

I have tried Mag's grain tek 3 times and failed all 3.

After the 1st failed attempt, I posted here and people seemed to think my water content was too high and it was suggested that I PC for longer.

So on the 2nd attempt I pc'ed for 90 minutes(about 20 minutes longer than the first time)

After several days, the majority of my jars failed and gave off a very sour smell.

So I tried again a 3rd time and PC'ed for 110 minutes, but now my jars are soured again.

Should I continue down this road and PC for even longer? Is it possible that something else is causing my problem? Could I be overcooking the grain while simmering? Simmering on too high heat?

I soak for 24 hours, simmer for 45 minutes, then rinse thoroughly, then PC.

Thanks in advance for any help.


--------------------
Death is a reason to live

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869102 -

sounds like 2 much moisture though i havent checked what his tek is yet. i just soak rye over night presuming your using rye. if its wheat boil but make sure they are semi dry inside not throughly saturated. did u check to make sure your pressure is high enough. r u using a flow hood or glove box? did you open your jars or did they sour on you without being fucked with?

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869117 -

I am using rye(rye berries)

Not using a flow hood or a glove box. I just transfer them from the PC to a sterile room, allow them to cool, then inoculate, then move to TiT incubator.

The PC goes to 15 psi.

The jars are souring without being opened. I use tyvek on jar lids and a bandaid to cover inoculation hole.


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Death is a reason to live

Edited by RootedGrowth (03/04/05 05:08 PM)

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869142 -

Might try a little gypsum powder (very cheap, any gardening store or some hardware places) in the jars. Helps to suck up the excess moisture. If you're getting wet spot bacteria, this might help. I think pris recommended about 1/8th of a teaspoon per 16 oz grain. GL.


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869144 -

could be the problem how sterile really is a sterile room. i would recommend building a glove box better yet a flow hood. never got the oven tek to work for me but hey my house is kind of messy. nothing works like a flow hood they work in the dirtest of environments never a contam.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869158 -

r u innoculating with spore syringes? that could be the source of your moisture problem. gypsum might work like he ^ said or put verm at the bottom to soak up excess moisture.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869159 -

I usually run a hepa filter in the room for 24+ hours before inoculating.

I am not sure how a flow hood would help. Do you mean I should use a flow hood for my incubator?


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Death is a reason to live

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869177 -

your grain tek are you putting berries then water in a jar and pcooking? i would recommend just soaking them overnight then strain and let a little of that surface water evaporate off(30min) before jaring. a little of that surface moisture adds up off of each berry when put in a jar

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869184 -

no i ment during innoculating what kind of lids are u using?

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869185 -

I soak for 24 hours, simmer for 45 minutes, rinse, then PC.

You think it might be wise to allow the grain to sit 30 minutes before PC'ing?


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Death is a reason to live

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869186 -

no need to simmer

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869204 -

yeah i lay my soaked grain after rinsing on the counter so excess water drips of then start from the top where the grain isnt sitting in water. simmering your putting too much moisture in the berries from my experience. I used to boil the berries to make the work faster but nothing but failed attempts because of too much moisture but everyone has there own tek.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869308 -

My rye tek.  I haven't posted this here in awhile.

Measure out your organic rye berries from a health food store, 1 cup for each quart jar you intend to make. Place them in a large pot. Rinse the heck out of them. Fill the pot with hot tap water, shake and swirl it around and pour it out. Do this three or four times until the water you pour out is clear. You'll be able to see when you have nice clean water to pour off instead of water filled with chaf and dirt. You want to now cover the rye berries with three times as much water as you have rye. Use half coffee and half plain water. In other words, if you have two inches of rye in the bottom of your pan, you should have six inches of water/coffee above that, for a total of 8 inches.  Add one tablespoon of gypsum to the water and stir well. Leave this to sit for 24 hours.  Stir well and set the pot on the stove. Bring to a boil. Boil for ten minutes, then, WHILE BOILING, drain the contents through a very large collander. (spaghetti strainer) If you're making a large batch, you may need more than one collander. Tip the collander side to side to get the rye to drain as much of the water as you can. Then, shake the collander in order to 'toss' the grain. This will cause a lot of steam to rise from your rye. Great. Do this a time or two, then let it sit for five minutes, then repeat. When all the moisture that will drip or evaporate from your rye has already done so, load your jars. The rye should look and feel dry to the touch when you load the jars. All the moisture you need is inside the grain. Fill jars no more than 2/3 full if they are to receive grain to grain transfers, or no more than 3/4 full if they are to be inoculated by spore syringe. Use a lid with a synthetic filter disk, polyfil, tyvek or similar. Cover with foil and PC the jars for at least 90 minutes at 15lbs. I use 120 minutes. When the jars are cool, they're ready to inoculate.


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869342 -

id go with soaking but thats just me. i know his tek works cuz many do it but just doesnt work for me. wheat berries thats a whole different story you can search for some of my posts from like 3 years ago they should be there some where if your intrested.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869446 -

OK here's what I've seen work. First, go get yourself a bag of WBS form the casa de mota for way cheap. Prepare your quart jars. Punch a hole in the lid with a screwdriver or a drill. It doesn't have to be a very big hole. Get some poly-fill, rip off a little piece, and roll it into a cylinder that's bigger than your hole and stuff it into the hole.

Follow the karo tek to make liquid mycelium inoculum, and noc up the grains with this. It works good to punch a hole in the lid of your 1/2 pint(wide mouth is gay) with a nail, and cover it up with some hi-temp silicone sealent(avaiable at automotive shops, normally red). Bingo. Home made re-sealing injection sight. Screw the lids on a little loose to try to minimize the vacuum the pc will form in the jars, and pc for 15 to 20 mins @ 15 psi. Let the PC cool in a clean place. Noc these up in a glove box, or in front of a laminar flow hood since there is a very good chance of air sneaking into these jars, which will contam. them if it's not clean air.

Next, EITHER soak grains overnight OR simmer grains for 1/2 hr or so. There is absolutely no need to do both IME. Next, take your quart jars (fuck wide mouth) and fill them up 1/2 to 3/4 full so you have plenty of room to shake.

PC for 90 minutes @ 15 psi (start 90 mins once pressure cooker reaches operating pressure) Let these jars cool completely in a clean place, like in front of a laminar flow hood. I'm guessing you don't have a flow hood, so take a rag soaked in iso. and cover the hole in the PC once you take the weight off, and let them cool completely in the PC. This is going to take a while. Next, noc up your jars with the karo water.

Cleanliness can not be under-emphasised. Depending on your situation, the easiest place to get exceptionally clean is probably the bath room or the kitchen. Non- carpeted rooms without windows are best. Hi-gloss paint makes the walls easier to wipe down. The cleaning process for a bathroom that I have seen work in mold infested houses goes as follows. The bathroom should be very clean to start with. Remove all non-esential items from the bathroom. Shower curtains, ass wipe,etc. Spray down everything with bleach solution, shoot a few pumps into the air for 30 secs or so, close the door, and walk out. Return when the bleach has settled, and wipe all the walls down with a clean bleach soaked rag, starting with the cieling, and working your way to the floor. Turn on the hepa filter and walk out for 20 mins or so. Kick off the hepa, and spray a bunch of bleach into the air, let it settle, and return in very freshly laundered clothes after taking a thurough shower, brushing your teeth, and using mouth wash. Try not to move too much air around. A fresh pair of painter's cover alls (made of tyvek) can be used, as well as a dust mask. Your gullet is filthy. Don't breath over your work.

The most common sources of contamination in a sterile environment (professional lab) are people's car seats, and people's pets.

Read the mushroom cultivator and growing gourmet and medicinal mushrooms, both available in the shroomery book store.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Tomatadunothing]
    #3869605 -

Mag's tek seems to be highly endorsed and it suggests to soak and simmer.

Are you guys sure that both would not be necessary?

He says you soak to add water but mainly to cause bacterial endospores to germinate, thus reducing contam risk.

The simmering is where the majority of the water is added according to Mag.

Any other opinions?


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Death is a reason to live

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869620 -

I'd simmer and soak 24 hours. But be sure to drain, or even towel dry it after that.


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: GnuBobo]
    #3869675 -

Cool, I'll give that a try.

Thanks bro!


--------------------
Death is a reason to live

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869715 -

I was having the exact same problems as you for the longest time and couldnt figure it out. My grains would always get bacterial contams and smell like sour ass!!

I didnt know what was going wrong as my experience with pf for the last year has been pretty much 100%.

Here is what I did and I shall never have bacterial contam again!

1) Soaked grains for 48 hrs. - then rinsed
2) Simmered in pot for 45 min.
3) Drained, but left slightly more water than usual
4) PC @ 15psi for 2 1/2 hrs.

The reason I didnt drain as long as usual is because I was gong to PC so long.

Anyways this procedure may seem overkill to some but it is the only way for me to get rid of my funky smelling bacterial contams.

Edited by frock (03/04/05 07:17 PM)

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869856 -

NO. no. no. i am sincerely glad that there are people out there who can successfully colonize rye. that's great and you should be pleased with your accomplishment. however, absolutely none of the advice given to rootedgrowth is likely to solve his problem: he has already told you he is working in a sterile environment. he (i'm assuming you're a guy)is obviously not an idiot; i do not think he misunderstands what a reasonably sterile environment should be like. and given the fact that many cultivators on this site admit to working in shamelessly dirty environments yet have great success, i think the cleanliness issue is moot. the cleaning advice given by tomatadunothing is great and is sure to sterilize any room, but it is extremely excessive. in fact, that's just downright obsessive. sure, you're chances of contamination is pretty low if you go through such an outrageous cleaning regimen, but a sterile glovebox in a reasonably sterile room, such as the one rootedgrowth is working in, would be just as effective and would save countless hours. i should add that i agree with the advice about liquid cultures--they are easy and greatly speed colonization. but liquid cultures are neither here nor there if one cannot get his or her rye grains at an optimum moisture content, which i insist is the problem rootedgrowth is having.

rootedgrowth, let me elaborate and prove to you that you're not alone by relating my own experience with rye (perhaps some of you are familiar with my sob story by now). i have tried five times, FIVE, to get 1 quart organic rye berry jars to work and have not once succeeded. i have done both the soak & simmer technique, a la magash's tek, and i have done the 'meausre out the rye & water and then pressure cook' technique, as per anno's fungifun.org rye tek. the fifth time was when i used anno's tek. i have tried soaking the rye for less than 12 hours and for more than 48. i have tried simmering the rye for 10-15 minutes to 45 minutes. i have tried pressure cooking for 45 minutes at 15 psi to slightly less than 1.5 hours. i have always let the rye jars cool in the pc, after shaking them thoroughly while still warm, in a clean and sterile room. i have shaken the syringes thoroughly before innoculating the rye. i have heated them till red and wiped them with alcohol. i have worked always, at all times, with clean hands and clothes, a dust mask over my mouth and nose, and surgical latex gloves on. not once via the soak and simmer method did the moisture content look correct--it always seemed way too dry or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, a wet clumpy mass. virtually nothing happened for the majority of those first four attempts. i say majority because on occasion i would get a jar that looked like it was slightly contaminated. but never was there any visible mold or bacteria growing, until, that is, i tried anno's 'measure & pc' method (where one doesn't soak & simmer). i was actually quite happy that these jars seemed to contaminate so quickly--it took only a week for them to show signs of cotamination. at the same time as the anno tek attempt, i prepared a liquid culture jar with the same syringe i'd used on the other jars and, lo and behold, i have a liquid culture sitting in my incubator! so it is not a spore viability issue, just as i insist it isn't for rootedgrowth. unfortunately, i can't get any rye prepared correctly so i can't inoculate it with the liquid culture. in addition, i have waited 4 weeks for rye jars to colonize. nothing happened. period.

rootedgrowth, as someone who is in your situation and who is doing his best to campaign ardently against the latent stereotype of "rye is always an easy grain to work with," i feel your frustration. as i see it, you have a few choices. but first, realize that no one, not even the most knowledgeable members of this site, are going to be able to help you at this point (unless you divulge new information that could be of use). just read the above posts--do they help? not really. basically it's people saying, "well, rye works great for me, no problems; here's what i do." invariably they're doing the same thing as you. thus, you can continue to experiment with rye if you're willing to spend the time and energy working at something that has decisively failed you three times already. you could do it five times, like me, or 500 times. another option is to try a different grain. this is what i would suggest, and this is what i am going to be doing in a few days. i will be trying wbs and brf. there is no guarantee, of course, that either of these two grains will provide me with a suitable medium, as my inability to get proper moisture content in rye could be indicative of something else that is wrong with my technique.

as you might see, i'm not too interested in hiding my frustration with rye or mild irritation with people who give advice about rye but have never or rarely failed to use it themselves; if you haven't failed to colonize rye three or five times consecutively, then you are not a member of this minority population of myeclial hobbyists for whom rye is their greatest nemesis.

rooted, i hope i've helped give you some direction and (mycelial) food for thought. i apologize for such a long winded diatribe. in short, the hell with rye. try something else and don't waste your time with it--you can always come back. give liquid cultures a shot, too. and a glove box can't hurt; it isn't necessary, it's just a precautionary measure. you can, of course, pm me and we'll continue our anti-rye campaign in cognito, as it were. good luck.


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"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869860 -

if those fail then try my way. sounds like your set on simmering. it just sounds to me that u have too much much moisture but there can be a million problems because we dont know how you r innoculating, and your not working in a sterile environment.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: GnuBobo]
    #3869867 -

GnuBobo said:
I'd simmer and soak 24 hours. But be sure to drain, or even towel dry it after that.


you really don't want to simmer for 24 hours. soak 24 hours, perhaps (that's debatable); simmer 24 hours, no. not debatable. as well, if you're having moisture content problems, only drain the rye for more than a few minutes, unless your jars are coming out looking too wet, in which case you'll want to let them air dry longer. rye is a hard grain to eyeball and gauge its moisture content (i am obviously not good at this). you also probably don't want to put a towel on your rye, as it seems you're only increasing the possibility of contamination when you touch the grains. besides, air works just as well, given enough time.

Edited by laughingbuddha (03/04/05 07:52 PM)

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3870067 -

You want the grains to look and feel totally dry before you load the jars. That's one of the reasons I like the short boil. It heats the grains up so they'll evaporate the moisture off the outside of the kernels when I shake the strainer. The other reason for the boil is that lots of bacteria has germinated and you don't want to pour that live stuff down your drain where it can breed and continue to fester and stink in the p-trap below the sink. After a 24 hour soak, a ten minute boil will put enough moisture into the kernels. I use a rapid boil, not a simmer. Remember, too dry is always better than too wet.


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #3870648 -

right on(to dry is safer then to wet). however i have over pcooked grain too dry but thats my fault.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3871148 -

the sterile room is not sterile!!!!! unless all air going in is filtered by hepa, which is impossible unless you have a lab grade lab, which you don't. So it is bs that your room is clean, just build a glove box or a flow hood and call it a day.


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ABSTRACT ART (Mine) http://nathanbelomy.com

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Fluxburn]
    #3871298 -

dude. seriously. of course he doesn't have laboratory grade sterility in his room. that's just a given. so when we say a room is "sterile" it means, simply, clean. it could mean very clean, or very very very clean (if you follow some of the outrageous advice above), but it goes without saying that even the most meticulous of persons will not be able to 100% sterilize any room. i mean c'mon, this isn't the CDC or some virus & bacteria research lab. isn't it implicitly implied that when one says "sterilize your equipment and surroundings" it means clean them as best & as much as you can/want?

i would also argue that you do not want your grains too dry or on the dry side at all, just as you don't want them sopping wet. everyone is assuming that your jars are too wet. if they are, that's easily fixable. if they're too dry and you've tried everything you can think of to get the moisture content up but can't (like me), you're better off saying adios to rye for at least a little while. also, the moisture of a slightly-more-than-is-optimal wet jar will benefit the spores more (in the absence of contams; yes, moisture sometimes facillitates breeding of said contams) than a slightly-more-DRY-than-is-optimal jar. you want the rye good and moist, just like the ladies.


it is noteworthy that only a handful of the replies to rooted's initial question have been an answer to his question. i have been told elsewhere on this forum that gypsum isn't necessary. why would gypsum help rooted out? i mean, c'mon. i have also been told that simmering for only 10 minutes is not enough time; i have tried it myself and in my experience it was not enough--the jars i made came out extremely dry. what needs to be done is, after three (or five) consecutive failures with rye is say this: Rye berries as mushroom substrate, I will see you in hell! get some wbs or brf. good luck.


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"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3871563 -

I guess it may be outrageous for most folks, but this is advice that will work even if there are 4 cats in the house and a toxic mold problem, as well. TRUST ME. Besides, when it comes down to it, it's not really a whole lot of extra work, and if you have contam.issues, you're wasting your time. If you're going to take the time to gather the materials and prepare them, you might as well make sure you pull the most crucial step off without a hitch. That's just my opinioin.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Tomatadunothing]
    #3871974 -

If all jars failed, the problem is not in his cleaness, its in the preperation. If you are PCing for that long, and are sure that its up to 15 PSI the whole time (drip a drop of water on it and it should sizzle away immediatly), then I'd say that you arent draining enough and your grains are to wet. I would suggest as RR did. I do that now and works great. Soak...boil until grains puff up (I like about 30 minutes myself, he does 10..whatever you like..you need to for a few minutes though). Then strain and dont rinse. Let the water steam off as you flip it...like this:


Then you can either do that until the outsides of the kernals are dry...or add a little dry verm in and mix it around. Not much just a little. Will soak up the rest of the excess moisture and help you out alot.




--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3872172 -

You don't need to soak and simmer. Just add the correct grain and water ratio to the jar and PC  :thumbup:

Basic rye recipe for 1 pint jar:

- 100g (=3.5 oz~125 ml~0.53 cup) rye
- 110g (= 3.9 oz =110 ml~0.46 cup) water
- knife tip full of gypsum (optional)

http://www.fungifun.org/grain/


--------------------
PROMOTE BACTERIA. THEY'RE THE ONLY CULTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3872173 -

I had lots and lots of bacterial rye failures years ago just like what you are describing. It would always go sour after I shook the jars. I just gave up on rye for years. One day I tried it again after reading stuff here and haven't had trouble since. A lot of folks have said this stuff already, but here's my take on how I started to get rye working:

1) I never soak overnight or anything. I boil for 30 minutes and drain.

2) I always use vermiculite and/or dehydrated manure to balance the moisture out after I've drained the rye. Except for condensation, you want this stuff to look dry on the outside. The water should be held inside the grains for the most part. I will repeat this: you want the rye grain to look pretty dry on the outside. It should not look anything like a PF jar.

3) I pressure cook my spawn bags no less than 3 hours but no more than 4 hours. With quart jars, I'd cut an hour off those times. If you are using spawn bags and there is more than one spawn bag in there, separate them with jar rings or something. You could probably cut some of this time off if you soaked the grain, but if you are having trouble, why not go the extra distance for sterilization? You won't hurt rye by going 3 hours. Just make sure that your pressure cooker isn't running with the weight going crazy or else you'll run out of water.

4) When injection time comes, I always use a syringe, mycelium, and hydrogen peroxide. I think using spores to large bags of spawn is just too risky. A mask and gloves can't hurt, but hydrogen peroxide in there really cleans the live mycelium. Also, don't breath around the site when you are injecting. Hold your breath if you have to. I wear a mask and turn the other way if I have to breath. Tape the hole up or put a bit of hot glue on it.

5) Do not shake the jars or re-mix the spawn bag until you see at least 40% coverage. Wait 2 weeks if it takes that long (it shouldn't take over a week at room temperature of 75-80). For some reason I find that shaking the jars too early increases the chances of the jar going south.

6) Never touch the filter floss, filter patch, or any filter, especially if it gets wet. The filter can be a direct water link to the inside of a jar if you're just using polyfill. I'd recommend not using polyfill. These newer materials like the filter patches on spawn bags offer superior protection against accidental contamination through the filter.


I can feel for you, man, because I used to have trouble too. Let us know how it goes.

Edited by ShroomGod (03/05/05 07:46 AM)

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3872207 -

I am a noob here but maybe some outside insight may help.... first do we have "organicly grown" second with all the work going on here is there any particular reason to stick with only one grain type or tek. popcorn?!?! really cheap.. worth a try at this point and similar process... I dunno jus my 2 cents


--------------------
All above posts are purely fictional and for amusement purposes only... Have A Nice Day! :wink:

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: juspassinthru]
    #3875058 -

(Sigh.)

Okay, here's the cheap, lazy, easy way. With all of the above, I think you could use a simple answer based on experience only.

The PC time is not the problem. 30 minutes has always worked for any substrate.

Your water content sounds high, though it shouldn't matter as much as people make out. Boil a pot bulk rye or finch seed for 30 min. Pour it through a sieve and let it drain until it doesn't drip. Dump it in jars. Don't worry about cleaning out used jars, foreign material, etc.; you're sterilizing it anyway.

Tyvek rocks; no problem there as long as it's sealed on (eg. silicone). For inoculation lids punch or drill a small hole and cover both sides with a blob of transparent silicone sealant. It makes a self-sealing inoculation point. Assuming your syringe is sterile, this MUST be how contaminants are entering.

I've had success with two methods.

1. Soak a cotton ball in alcohol. Heat the needle from the syringe to the tip with a lighter flame (kills anything in it). Stick the needle on the injection hole (silicone doesn't burn) and wrap the alcohol swab around the whole area while the needle is still very hot. Nothing can get at the needle now, and until the alcohol cooled it nothing could survive on it. Inject and withdraw through the alcohol pad. Voil?.

And try not to set yourself on fire.

2. If you want a sterile environment for grain to grain transfers etc., forget teh flow hood and glove box. Buy a box of clear leaf bags (large, strong... Glad Easy Tie Leaf and Garden, or something like that). Put your equipment and a can of Lysol in. Tie or tape or whatever the end. Spray all surfaces with Lysol and squirt a bit in the air. Wait five minutes. It's clumsy manipulating everything through the plastic, but it's dirt cheap and disposable. You can also just take the lid off the grain jar and squirt in your inoculant, and forget the injection hole hassle. You'll want a teaspoon in the bag to pop the lids off.

I'm not cutting down people who build glove boxes and flow hoods, but I don't see the point unless you're getting really advanced.

Never had contams with either method, and they can be done in a filthy environment.

--Snarp

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Snarp]
    #3875391 -

Ok, I have a related question to Rootedgrowths problem: With cakes, you want to get as much water in there with out having "too much water" (the mycelia can't breathe) because the mycelia uses the water to survive until the cake dries out. But for rye jars everyone is hopping on the bandwagon saying you want them as dry as possible. But i see two flaws (and i may be wrong; i'm looking for correction here): 1. Assuming everything else does fine wouldnt you want a decent amount of moister so the mycelia can thrive? 2. If you are soaking (to germinate endospores) and then PCing the hell out of the jars, and using some kind of filter to keep nasties out, why are we so afraid of getting contams by having a few extra drops of water in there? Isnt the whole point to kill everything in there? Thus wouldnt water content only effect whether the mycelia has a good or bad environment?

And laughing budda has a point. I count 7 basic rye teks listed here. I'm sure Rooted already read what has basically been repeated 7 times in this one post before he attempted to do rye in the first place. errrr...~peace~ :scrambled:


--------------------
You gotta wake up to get faded but you gotta get up to get paided.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Darkie]
    #3876526 -

OMFG! people!? do you not listen?!!!? do you not read? what i am saying and trying to get you to realize is that at some point there is simply absolutely nothing rooted can do or change to get rye to work for him: IT SIMPLY WILL NOT WORK!! for god's sake people, READ!! sometimes, rye just won't work. your own experience with it doesn't mean two shits! it just doesn't work sometimes. geez.


--------------------
"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3876883 -

That's like saying that a car will only start for certain people. Anyone who can follow directions should be able to prepare any kind of grain spawn they want to.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Tomatadunothing]
    #3878537 -

Darkie:

1/4" Tyvek holes are big enough, and you can cover the lid with cling wrap if you want the humidity high for germination. But that's personal tweaking.

Hey Buddha, buddy, I don't get into the weird personality conflicts online, but you might take a tranq or ask the dancing tulips to stop teasing you or whatever it is that will calm you down. I like direct grain inoculation. It's cheap, simple, and fits my minimalist ways. Like every visitor here, RG will read a lot of info and pick out what's best for him. If grains work, great. If not, he'll experiment with other stuff.

RG: good luck.

--Snarp

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Tomatadunothing]
    #3880283 -

in fact, that's not at all what it's like; your car analogy, while quaint, is insulting to rooted's intelligence and is just an overall bad analogy to begin with. OBVIOUSLY HE'S BEEN FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS. and so have i, for that matter. and yet no amount of following directions or listening to inane cleaning suggestions such as yours has helped him, nor have they helped me. furthermore, who knows what the problem is other than rooted? NO ONE. which is why i return to my initial suggestion: screw rye. try something else, don't waste any more time, because no amount of teks from rye users can help at a certain point. besides, nearly every tek above consists of the same basic steps with minor variations in time of simmer and drain and soak/not soak. replace rye with wbs or millet or brf and follow the same steps--success is bound to happen sooner or later.


--------------------
"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3881140 -

I just wanted to jump back in here. Im not sure if you have read all of the replies in this thread or not.

If you take a look at my other reply a while back I was having the EXACT same problem as you with rye but I have cured that problem.

Seriously, nothing would work for me until I PC for 2.5hrs. It sounds like a long time but it works.

This worked for Rye and WBS.

I NO LONGER get BACTERIAL CONTAMS.

If you try my method on the other page, you will suceed. As Im putting all my money on the fact the those nastys are coming from your grain and not your syringe.

Anyways, there is alot of anger in this thread so I am leaving now.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: frock]
    #3881429 -

Let's compromise, do what i am doing. Give up for now and go back to what has worked until you can renew your confidence. Then shoot for whatever.

As for Pcing for 2.5h though, that would be impossible for me. My PC gets pretty close to running out of water after one hour. Might just be small though. Then again, contam hasnt been my rye problem. ~peace~


--------------------
You gotta wake up to get faded but you gotta get up to get paided.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Darkie]
    #3881698 -

Just try WBS or popcorn.

Sounds like sour rot both times, with too much water content. And about the whole sterility issue, I work in a dirty kitchen. I just flame sterilize the needle and wipe it with alcohol, inoculate, then rinse wash and repeat as nessisary. And I dont have a major contam problem.

Mabe next time you do a batch of jars try 3 jars of rye, 3 jars of wbs, and 3 jars of popcorn, something like this? Then see if they all contam or not, and do be VERY careful with that water content (Let them strain for 30-60 min. if soaking).

I haven't had any problems using this birdseed technique: http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/24332

GL


--------------------
Sko

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3881835 -

laughingbuddha said:
in fact, that's not at all what it's like; your car analogy, while quaint, is insulting to rooted's intelligence and is just an overall bad analogy to begin with. OBVIOUSLY HE'S BEEN FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS. and so have i, for that matter. and yet no amount of following directions or listening to inane cleaning suggestions such as yours has helped him, nor have they helped me. furthermore, who knows what the problem is other than rooted? NO ONE. which is why i return to my initial suggestion: screw rye. try something else, don't waste any more time, because no amount of teks from rye users can help at a certain point. besides, nearly every tek above consists of the same basic steps with minor variations in time of simmer and drain and soak/not soak. replace rye with wbs or millet or brf and follow the same steps--success is bound to happen sooner or later.


Your very discouraging you know that? Do you know how many people I've seen post about rye problems they couldnt fix after 3-4 times trying? Over 50, literally. Do you know how many got rye working after posts JUST like this one? About 90%. Dont be such a discouraging asshole. If you want to give up on things, thats fine for you. Some people have confidence in themselves and wish to ACTUALLY succeed at something instead of giving up. Advice to give up to those people isnt needed.

IMO, you insult ROOTED's intelligence more by suggesting that hes to stupid to figure out rye. Rye doesnt require magic, it requires figuring how how you screwed up. Because thats what happened, you screwed it up. It doesnt mean someones stupid. Just like the first time your taught how to start a car when your like 6 or whatever you would be. The first few times you do it, you might turn the key to long and grind the starter. That doesnt mean you have to give up.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3881969 -

in fact, it's more a question of opportunity cost and opportunity benefit than "discouraging" or "encouraging." furthermore, rooted has said in his first post that he's following magash's tek. moreover, the real issue that i have been harping on is that at a certain point no amount of tek posting or suggesting can help an individual figure out what is going wrong with his/her INDIVIDUAL results. that is, how much time does one want to invest in a substrate that has not worked three consecutive times, despite following magash's tek to a T? with the given that no one is likely to be able to solve rooted's problem other than himself, i suggested trying a different grain, such as wbs. it's a question of time and energy--that's not discouraging, nor is it insulting to his intelligence to suggest trying something else, especially considering that i am in the same boat as he is.

i apologize for obviously being exasperated with rye but anyone would be after expending as much time and energy as i have. i'm not really interested in hiding my exasperation--people should know that it is not a sure thing grain and that others have tried and failed and have (hopefully) succeeded with other grains. discouraging? i'm not giving up or throwing in the towel, nor have i suggested rooted do so. on the contrary, i have suggested the most logical next step when all possible avenues are exhausted: try something else, in this case, wbs, millet, popcorn, etc. hell, try pasta. just keep trying. <= that's the height of negativity.


--------------------
"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3882046 -

The point is, no grain is a sure thing. If someone doesnt care what substrate theyre working with then yes, switching grains is a good suggestion. However you didnt JUST suggest. You harassed people when they offered help. You dont know if the advice could help or not. You dont know what Rooted did more than anyone else. Only he does, as youve said so many times. So make your suggestion, sure...but if its not taken, and others continue offering advice on ways that he can fix his problem and go with rye (because its worth it, fruit directly off grains and rye is superior IME) dont come back yelling at people that all their helping isnt doing ROOTED (someone thats not even you) any good. Let Rooted decide if he's in the same boat as you and he just needs to switch grains, dont badger people about it.

Like your last sentence says "JUST KEEP TRYING".


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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