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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869860 -

if those fail then try my way. sounds like your set on simmering. it just sounds to me that u have too much much moisture but there can be a million problems because we dont know how you r innoculating, and your not working in a sterile environment.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: GnuBobo]
    #3869867 -

GnuBobo said:
I'd simmer and soak 24 hours. But be sure to drain, or even towel dry it after that.


you really don't want to simmer for 24 hours. soak 24 hours, perhaps (that's debatable); simmer 24 hours, no. not debatable. as well, if you're having moisture content problems, only drain the rye for more than a few minutes, unless your jars are coming out looking too wet, in which case you'll want to let them air dry longer. rye is a hard grain to eyeball and gauge its moisture content (i am obviously not good at this). you also probably don't want to put a towel on your rye, as it seems you're only increasing the possibility of contamination when you touch the grains. besides, air works just as well, given enough time.

Edited by laughingbuddha (03/04/05 07:52 PM)

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3870067 -

You want the grains to look and feel totally dry before you load the jars. That's one of the reasons I like the short boil. It heats the grains up so they'll evaporate the moisture off the outside of the kernels when I shake the strainer. The other reason for the boil is that lots of bacteria has germinated and you don't want to pour that live stuff down your drain where it can breed and continue to fester and stink in the p-trap below the sink. After a 24 hour soak, a ten minute boil will put enough moisture into the kernels. I use a rapid boil, not a simmer. Remember, too dry is always better than too wet.


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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #3870648 -

right on(to dry is safer then to wet). however i have over pcooked grain too dry but thats my fault.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3871148 -

the sterile room is not sterile!!!!! unless all air going in is filtered by hepa, which is impossible unless you have a lab grade lab, which you don't. So it is bs that your room is clean, just build a glove box or a flow hood and call it a day.


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ABSTRACT ART (Mine) http://nathanbelomy.com

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Fluxburn]
    #3871298 -

dude. seriously. of course he doesn't have laboratory grade sterility in his room. that's just a given. so when we say a room is "sterile" it means, simply, clean. it could mean very clean, or very very very clean (if you follow some of the outrageous advice above), but it goes without saying that even the most meticulous of persons will not be able to 100% sterilize any room. i mean c'mon, this isn't the CDC or some virus & bacteria research lab. isn't it implicitly implied that when one says "sterilize your equipment and surroundings" it means clean them as best & as much as you can/want?

i would also argue that you do not want your grains too dry or on the dry side at all, just as you don't want them sopping wet. everyone is assuming that your jars are too wet. if they are, that's easily fixable. if they're too dry and you've tried everything you can think of to get the moisture content up but can't (like me), you're better off saying adios to rye for at least a little while. also, the moisture of a slightly-more-than-is-optimal wet jar will benefit the spores more (in the absence of contams; yes, moisture sometimes facillitates breeding of said contams) than a slightly-more-DRY-than-is-optimal jar. you want the rye good and moist, just like the ladies.


it is noteworthy that only a handful of the replies to rooted's initial question have been an answer to his question. i have been told elsewhere on this forum that gypsum isn't necessary. why would gypsum help rooted out? i mean, c'mon. i have also been told that simmering for only 10 minutes is not enough time; i have tried it myself and in my experience it was not enough--the jars i made came out extremely dry. what needs to be done is, after three (or five) consecutive failures with rye is say this: Rye berries as mushroom substrate, I will see you in hell! get some wbs or brf. good luck.


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"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3871563 -

I guess it may be outrageous for most folks, but this is advice that will work even if there are 4 cats in the house and a toxic mold problem, as well. TRUST ME. Besides, when it comes down to it, it's not really a whole lot of extra work, and if you have contam.issues, you're wasting your time. If you're going to take the time to gather the materials and prepare them, you might as well make sure you pull the most crucial step off without a hitch. That's just my opinioin.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Tomatadunothing]
    #3871974 -

If all jars failed, the problem is not in his cleaness, its in the preperation. If you are PCing for that long, and are sure that its up to 15 PSI the whole time (drip a drop of water on it and it should sizzle away immediatly), then I'd say that you arent draining enough and your grains are to wet. I would suggest as RR did. I do that now and works great. Soak...boil until grains puff up (I like about 30 minutes myself, he does 10..whatever you like..you need to for a few minutes though). Then strain and dont rinse. Let the water steam off as you flip it...like this:


Then you can either do that until the outsides of the kernals are dry...or add a little dry verm in and mix it around. Not much just a little. Will soak up the rest of the excess moisture and help you out alot.




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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3872172 -

You don't need to soak and simmer. Just add the correct grain and water ratio to the jar and PC  :thumbup:

Basic rye recipe for 1 pint jar:

- 100g (=3.5 oz~125 ml~0.53 cup) rye
- 110g (= 3.9 oz =110 ml~0.46 cup) water
- knife tip full of gypsum (optional)

http://www.fungifun.org/grain/


--------------------
PROMOTE BACTERIA. THEY'RE THE ONLY CULTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3872173 -

I had lots and lots of bacterial rye failures years ago just like what you are describing. It would always go sour after I shook the jars. I just gave up on rye for years. One day I tried it again after reading stuff here and haven't had trouble since. A lot of folks have said this stuff already, but here's my take on how I started to get rye working:

1) I never soak overnight or anything. I boil for 30 minutes and drain.

2) I always use vermiculite and/or dehydrated manure to balance the moisture out after I've drained the rye. Except for condensation, you want this stuff to look dry on the outside. The water should be held inside the grains for the most part. I will repeat this: you want the rye grain to look pretty dry on the outside. It should not look anything like a PF jar.

3) I pressure cook my spawn bags no less than 3 hours but no more than 4 hours. With quart jars, I'd cut an hour off those times. If you are using spawn bags and there is more than one spawn bag in there, separate them with jar rings or something. You could probably cut some of this time off if you soaked the grain, but if you are having trouble, why not go the extra distance for sterilization? You won't hurt rye by going 3 hours. Just make sure that your pressure cooker isn't running with the weight going crazy or else you'll run out of water.

4) When injection time comes, I always use a syringe, mycelium, and hydrogen peroxide. I think using spores to large bags of spawn is just too risky. A mask and gloves can't hurt, but hydrogen peroxide in there really cleans the live mycelium. Also, don't breath around the site when you are injecting. Hold your breath if you have to. I wear a mask and turn the other way if I have to breath. Tape the hole up or put a bit of hot glue on it.

5) Do not shake the jars or re-mix the spawn bag until you see at least 40% coverage. Wait 2 weeks if it takes that long (it shouldn't take over a week at room temperature of 75-80). For some reason I find that shaking the jars too early increases the chances of the jar going south.

6) Never touch the filter floss, filter patch, or any filter, especially if it gets wet. The filter can be a direct water link to the inside of a jar if you're just using polyfill. I'd recommend not using polyfill. These newer materials like the filter patches on spawn bags offer superior protection against accidental contamination through the filter.


I can feel for you, man, because I used to have trouble too. Let us know how it goes.

Edited by ShroomGod (03/05/05 07:46 AM)

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3872207 -

I am a noob here but maybe some outside insight may help.... first do we have "organicly grown" second with all the work going on here is there any particular reason to stick with only one grain type or tek. popcorn?!?! really cheap.. worth a try at this point and similar process... I dunno jus my 2 cents


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All above posts are purely fictional and for amusement purposes only... Have A Nice Day! :wink:

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: juspassinthru]
    #3875058 -

(Sigh.)

Okay, here's the cheap, lazy, easy way. With all of the above, I think you could use a simple answer based on experience only.

The PC time is not the problem. 30 minutes has always worked for any substrate.

Your water content sounds high, though it shouldn't matter as much as people make out. Boil a pot bulk rye or finch seed for 30 min. Pour it through a sieve and let it drain until it doesn't drip. Dump it in jars. Don't worry about cleaning out used jars, foreign material, etc.; you're sterilizing it anyway.

Tyvek rocks; no problem there as long as it's sealed on (eg. silicone). For inoculation lids punch or drill a small hole and cover both sides with a blob of transparent silicone sealant. It makes a self-sealing inoculation point. Assuming your syringe is sterile, this MUST be how contaminants are entering.

I've had success with two methods.

1. Soak a cotton ball in alcohol. Heat the needle from the syringe to the tip with a lighter flame (kills anything in it). Stick the needle on the injection hole (silicone doesn't burn) and wrap the alcohol swab around the whole area while the needle is still very hot. Nothing can get at the needle now, and until the alcohol cooled it nothing could survive on it. Inject and withdraw through the alcohol pad. Voil?.

And try not to set yourself on fire.

2. If you want a sterile environment for grain to grain transfers etc., forget teh flow hood and glove box. Buy a box of clear leaf bags (large, strong... Glad Easy Tie Leaf and Garden, or something like that). Put your equipment and a can of Lysol in. Tie or tape or whatever the end. Spray all surfaces with Lysol and squirt a bit in the air. Wait five minutes. It's clumsy manipulating everything through the plastic, but it's dirt cheap and disposable. You can also just take the lid off the grain jar and squirt in your inoculant, and forget the injection hole hassle. You'll want a teaspoon in the bag to pop the lids off.

I'm not cutting down people who build glove boxes and flow hoods, but I don't see the point unless you're getting really advanced.

Never had contams with either method, and they can be done in a filthy environment.

--Snarp

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Snarp]
    #3875391 -

Ok, I have a related question to Rootedgrowths problem: With cakes, you want to get as much water in there with out having "too much water" (the mycelia can't breathe) because the mycelia uses the water to survive until the cake dries out. But for rye jars everyone is hopping on the bandwagon saying you want them as dry as possible. But i see two flaws (and i may be wrong; i'm looking for correction here): 1. Assuming everything else does fine wouldnt you want a decent amount of moister so the mycelia can thrive? 2. If you are soaking (to germinate endospores) and then PCing the hell out of the jars, and using some kind of filter to keep nasties out, why are we so afraid of getting contams by having a few extra drops of water in there? Isnt the whole point to kill everything in there? Thus wouldnt water content only effect whether the mycelia has a good or bad environment?

And laughing budda has a point. I count 7 basic rye teks listed here. I'm sure Rooted already read what has basically been repeated 7 times in this one post before he attempted to do rye in the first place. errrr...~peace~ :scrambled:


--------------------
You gotta wake up to get faded but you gotta get up to get paided.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Darkie]
    #3876526 -

OMFG! people!? do you not listen?!!!? do you not read? what i am saying and trying to get you to realize is that at some point there is simply absolutely nothing rooted can do or change to get rye to work for him: IT SIMPLY WILL NOT WORK!! for god's sake people, READ!! sometimes, rye just won't work. your own experience with it doesn't mean two shits! it just doesn't work sometimes. geez.


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"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3876883 -

That's like saying that a car will only start for certain people. Anyone who can follow directions should be able to prepare any kind of grain spawn they want to.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Tomatadunothing]
    #3878537 -

Darkie:

1/4" Tyvek holes are big enough, and you can cover the lid with cling wrap if you want the humidity high for germination. But that's personal tweaking.

Hey Buddha, buddy, I don't get into the weird personality conflicts online, but you might take a tranq or ask the dancing tulips to stop teasing you or whatever it is that will calm you down. I like direct grain inoculation. It's cheap, simple, and fits my minimalist ways. Like every visitor here, RG will read a lot of info and pick out what's best for him. If grains work, great. If not, he'll experiment with other stuff.

RG: good luck.

--Snarp

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Tomatadunothing]
    #3880283 -

in fact, that's not at all what it's like; your car analogy, while quaint, is insulting to rooted's intelligence and is just an overall bad analogy to begin with. OBVIOUSLY HE'S BEEN FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS. and so have i, for that matter. and yet no amount of following directions or listening to inane cleaning suggestions such as yours has helped him, nor have they helped me. furthermore, who knows what the problem is other than rooted? NO ONE. which is why i return to my initial suggestion: screw rye. try something else, don't waste any more time, because no amount of teks from rye users can help at a certain point. besides, nearly every tek above consists of the same basic steps with minor variations in time of simmer and drain and soak/not soak. replace rye with wbs or millet or brf and follow the same steps--success is bound to happen sooner or later.


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"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3881140 -

I just wanted to jump back in here. Im not sure if you have read all of the replies in this thread or not.

If you take a look at my other reply a while back I was having the EXACT same problem as you with rye but I have cured that problem.

Seriously, nothing would work for me until I PC for 2.5hrs. It sounds like a long time but it works.

This worked for Rye and WBS.

I NO LONGER get BACTERIAL CONTAMS.

If you try my method on the other page, you will suceed. As Im putting all my money on the fact the those nastys are coming from your grain and not your syringe.

Anyways, there is alot of anger in this thread so I am leaving now.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: frock]
    #3881429 -

Let's compromise, do what i am doing. Give up for now and go back to what has worked until you can renew your confidence. Then shoot for whatever.

As for Pcing for 2.5h though, that would be impossible for me. My PC gets pretty close to running out of water after one hour. Might just be small though. Then again, contam hasnt been my rye problem. ~peace~


--------------------
You gotta wake up to get faded but you gotta get up to get paided.

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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Darkie]
    #3881698 -

Just try WBS or popcorn.

Sounds like sour rot both times, with too much water content. And about the whole sterility issue, I work in a dirty kitchen. I just flame sterilize the needle and wipe it with alcohol, inoculate, then rinse wash and repeat as nessisary. And I dont have a major contam problem.

Mabe next time you do a batch of jars try 3 jars of rye, 3 jars of wbs, and 3 jars of popcorn, something like this? Then see if they all contam or not, and do be VERY careful with that water content (Let them strain for 30-60 min. if soaking).

I haven't had any problems using this birdseed technique: http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/24332

GL


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Sko

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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