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OfflineRootedGrowth
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3 failed grain attempts, please help :(
    #3869053 - 03/04/05 06:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have tried Mag's grain tek 3 times and failed all 3.

After the 1st failed attempt, I posted here and people seemed to think my water content was too high and it was suggested that I PC for longer.

So on the 2nd attempt I pc'ed for 90 minutes(about 20 minutes longer than the first time)

After several days, the majority of my jars failed and gave off a very sour smell.

So I tried again a 3rd time and PC'ed for 110 minutes, but now my jars are soured again.

Should I continue down this road and PC for even longer? Is it possible that something else is causing my problem? Could I be overcooking the grain while simmering? Simmering on too high heat?

I soak for 24 hours, simmer for 45 minutes, then rinse thoroughly, then PC.

Thanks in advance for any help.


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869102 - 03/04/05 07:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

sounds like 2 much moisture though i havent checked what his tek is yet. i just soak rye over night presuming your using rye. if its wheat boil but make sure they are semi dry inside not throughly saturated. did u check to make sure your pressure is high enough. r u using a flow hood or glove box? did you open your jars or did they sour on you without being fucked with?


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OfflineRootedGrowth
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869117 - 03/04/05 07:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I am using rye(rye berries)

Not using a flow hood or a glove box. I just transfer them from the PC to a sterile room, allow them to cool, then inoculate, then move to TiT incubator.

The PC goes to 15 psi.

The jars are souring without being opened. I use tyvek on jar lids and a bandaid to cover inoculation hole.


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Edited by RootedGrowth (03/04/05 07:08 PM)


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869142 - 03/04/05 07:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Might try a little gypsum powder (very cheap, any gardening store or some hardware places) in the jars. Helps to suck up the excess moisture. If you're getting wet spot bacteria, this might help. I think pris recommended about 1/8th of a teaspoon per 16 oz grain. GL.


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869144 - 03/04/05 07:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

could be the problem how sterile really is a sterile room. i would recommend building a glove box better yet a flow hood. never got the oven tek to work for me but hey my house is kind of messy. nothing works like a flow hood they work in the dirtest of environments never a contam.


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869158 - 03/04/05 07:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

r u innoculating with spore syringes? that could be the source of your moisture problem. gypsum might work like he ^ said or put verm at the bottom to soak up excess moisture.


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OfflineRootedGrowth
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869159 - 03/04/05 07:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I usually run a hepa filter in the room for 24+ hours before inoculating.

I am not sure how a flow hood would help. Do you mean I should use a flow hood for my incubator?


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869177 - 03/04/05 07:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

your grain tek are you putting berries then water in a jar and pcooking? i would recommend just soaking them overnight then strain and let a little of that surface water evaporate off(30min) before jaring. a little of that surface moisture adds up off of each berry when put in a jar


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869184 - 03/04/05 07:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

no i ment during innoculating what kind of lids are u using?


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OfflineRootedGrowth
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869185 - 03/04/05 07:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I soak for 24 hours, simmer for 45 minutes, rinse, then PC.

You think it might be wise to allow the grain to sit 30 minutes before PC'ing?


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869186 - 03/04/05 07:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

no need to simmer


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869204 - 03/04/05 07:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yeah i lay my soaked grain after rinsing on the counter so excess water drips of then start from the top where the grain isnt sitting in water. simmering your putting too much moisture in the berries from my experience. I used to boil the berries to make the work faster but nothing but failed attempts because of too much moisture but everyone has there own tek.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869308 - 03/04/05 07:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

My rye tek.  I haven't posted this here in awhile.

Measure out your organic rye berries from a health food store, 1 cup for each quart jar you intend to make. Place them in a large pot. Rinse the heck out of them. Fill the pot with hot tap water, shake and swirl it around and pour it out. Do this three or four times until the water you pour out is clear. You'll be able to see when you have nice clean water to pour off instead of water filled with chaf and dirt. You want to now cover the rye berries with three times as much water as you have rye. Use half coffee and half plain water. In other words, if you have two inches of rye in the bottom of your pan, you should have six inches of water/coffee above that, for a total of 8 inches.  Add one tablespoon of gypsum to the water and stir well. Leave this to sit for 24 hours.  Stir well and set the pot on the stove. Bring to a boil. Boil for ten minutes, then, WHILE BOILING, drain the contents through a very large collander. (spaghetti strainer) If you're making a large batch, you may need more than one collander. Tip the collander side to side to get the rye to drain as much of the water as you can. Then, shake the collander in order to 'toss' the grain. This will cause a lot of steam to rise from your rye. Great. Do this a time or two, then let it sit for five minutes, then repeat. When all the moisture that will drip or evaporate from your rye has already done so, load your jars. The rye should look and feel dry to the touch when you load the jars. All the moisture you need is inside the grain. Fill jars no more than 2/3 full if they are to receive grain to grain transfers, or no more than 3/4 full if they are to be inoculated by spore syringe. Use a lid with a synthetic filter disk, polyfil, tyvek or similar. Cover with foil and PC the jars for at least 90 minutes at 15lbs. I use 120 minutes. When the jars are cool, they're ready to inoculate.


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869342 - 03/04/05 07:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

id go with soaking but thats just me. i know his tek works cuz many do it but just doesnt work for me. wheat berries thats a whole different story you can search for some of my posts from like 3 years ago they should be there some where if your intrested.


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OfflineTomatadunothing
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: durban_poison]
    #3869446 - 03/04/05 08:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

OK here's what I've seen work. First, go get yourself a bag of WBS form the casa de mota for way cheap. Prepare your quart jars. Punch a hole in the lid with a screwdriver or a drill. It doesn't have to be a very big hole. Get some poly-fill, rip off a little piece, and roll it into a cylinder that's bigger than your hole and stuff it into the hole.

Follow the karo tek to make liquid mycelium inoculum, and noc up the grains with this. It works good to punch a hole in the lid of your 1/2 pint(wide mouth is gay) with a nail, and cover it up with some hi-temp silicone sealent(avaiable at automotive shops, normally red). Bingo. Home made re-sealing injection sight. Screw the lids on a little loose to try to minimize the vacuum the pc will form in the jars, and pc for 15 to 20 mins @ 15 psi. Let the PC cool in a clean place. Noc these up in a glove box, or in front of a laminar flow hood since there is a very good chance of air sneaking into these jars, which will contam. them if it's not clean air.

Next, EITHER soak grains overnight OR simmer grains for 1/2 hr or so. There is absolutely no need to do both IME. Next, take your quart jars (fuck wide mouth) and fill them up 1/2 to 3/4 full so you have plenty of room to shake.

PC for 90 minutes @ 15 psi (start 90 mins once pressure cooker reaches operating pressure) Let these jars cool completely in a clean place, like in front of a laminar flow hood. I'm guessing you don't have a flow hood, so take a rag soaked in iso. and cover the hole in the PC once you take the weight off, and let them cool completely in the PC. This is going to take a while. Next, noc up your jars with the karo water.

Cleanliness can not be under-emphasised. Depending on your situation, the easiest place to get exceptionally clean is probably the bath room or the kitchen. Non- carpeted rooms without windows are best. Hi-gloss paint makes the walls easier to wipe down. The cleaning process for a bathroom that I have seen work in mold infested houses goes as follows. The bathroom should be very clean to start with. Remove all non-esential items from the bathroom. Shower curtains, ass wipe,etc. Spray down everything with bleach solution, shoot a few pumps into the air for 30 secs or so, close the door, and walk out. Return when the bleach has settled, and wipe all the walls down with a clean bleach soaked rag, starting with the cieling, and working your way to the floor. Turn on the hepa filter and walk out for 20 mins or so. Kick off the hepa, and spray a bunch of bleach into the air, let it settle, and return in very freshly laundered clothes after taking a thurough shower, brushing your teeth, and using mouth wash. Try not to move too much air around. A fresh pair of painter's cover alls (made of tyvek) can be used, as well as a dust mask. Your gullet is filthy. Don't breath over your work.

The most common sources of contamination in a sterile environment (professional lab) are people's car seats, and people's pets.

Read the mushroom cultivator and growing gourmet and medicinal mushrooms, both available in the shroomery book store.


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OfflineRootedGrowth
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: Tomatadunothing]
    #3869605 - 03/04/05 08:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Mag's tek seems to be highly endorsed and it suggests to soak and simmer.

Are you guys sure that both would not be necessary?

He says you soak to add water but mainly to cause bacterial endospores to germinate, thus reducing contam risk.

The simmering is where the majority of the water is added according to Mag.

Any other opinions?


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869620 - 03/04/05 08:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'd simmer and soak 24 hours. But be sure to drain, or even towel dry it after that.


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OfflineRootedGrowth
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: GnuBobo]
    #3869675 - 03/04/05 09:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Cool, I'll give that a try.

Thanks bro!


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Offlinefrock
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869715 - 03/04/05 09:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I was having the exact same problems as you for the longest time and couldnt figure it out. My grains would always get bacterial contams and smell like sour ass!!

I didnt know what was going wrong as my experience with pf for the last year has been pretty much 100%.

Here is what I did and I shall never have bacterial contam again!

1) Soaked grains for 48 hrs. - then rinsed
2) Simmered in pot for 45 min.
3) Drained, but left slightly more water than usual
4) PC @ 15psi for 2 1/2 hrs.

The reason I didnt drain as long as usual is because I was gong to PC so long.

Anyways this procedure may seem overkill to some but it is the only way for me to get rid of my funky smelling bacterial contams.


Edited by frock (03/04/05 09:17 PM)


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Offlinelaughingbuddha
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Re: 3 failed grain attempts, please help :( [Re: RootedGrowth]
    #3869856 - 03/04/05 09:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

NO. no. no. i am sincerely glad that there are people out there who can successfully colonize rye. that's great and you should be pleased with your accomplishment. however, absolutely none of the advice given to rootedgrowth is likely to solve his problem: he has already told you he is working in a sterile environment. he (i'm assuming you're a guy)is obviously not an idiot; i do not think he misunderstands what a reasonably sterile environment should be like. and given the fact that many cultivators on this site admit to working in shamelessly dirty environments yet have great success, i think the cleanliness issue is moot. the cleaning advice given by tomatadunothing is great and is sure to sterilize any room, but it is extremely excessive. in fact, that's just downright obsessive. sure, you're chances of contamination is pretty low if you go through such an outrageous cleaning regimen, but a sterile glovebox in a reasonably sterile room, such as the one rootedgrowth is working in, would be just as effective and would save countless hours. i should add that i agree with the advice about liquid cultures--they are easy and greatly speed colonization. but liquid cultures are neither here nor there if one cannot get his or her rye grains at an optimum moisture content, which i insist is the problem rootedgrowth is having.

rootedgrowth, let me elaborate and prove to you that you're not alone by relating my own experience with rye (perhaps some of you are familiar with my sob story by now). i have tried five times, FIVE, to get 1 quart organic rye berry jars to work and have not once succeeded. i have done both the soak & simmer technique, a la magash's tek, and i have done the 'meausre out the rye & water and then pressure cook' technique, as per anno's fungifun.org rye tek. the fifth time was when i used anno's tek. i have tried soaking the rye for less than 12 hours and for more than 48. i have tried simmering the rye for 10-15 minutes to 45 minutes. i have tried pressure cooking for 45 minutes at 15 psi to slightly less than 1.5 hours. i have always let the rye jars cool in the pc, after shaking them thoroughly while still warm, in a clean and sterile room. i have shaken the syringes thoroughly before innoculating the rye. i have heated them till red and wiped them with alcohol. i have worked always, at all times, with clean hands and clothes, a dust mask over my mouth and nose, and surgical latex gloves on. not once via the soak and simmer method did the moisture content look correct--it always seemed way too dry or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, a wet clumpy mass. virtually nothing happened for the majority of those first four attempts. i say majority because on occasion i would get a jar that looked like it was slightly contaminated. but never was there any visible mold or bacteria growing, until, that is, i tried anno's 'measure & pc' method (where one doesn't soak & simmer). i was actually quite happy that these jars seemed to contaminate so quickly--it took only a week for them to show signs of cotamination. at the same time as the anno tek attempt, i prepared a liquid culture jar with the same syringe i'd used on the other jars and, lo and behold, i have a liquid culture sitting in my incubator! so it is not a spore viability issue, just as i insist it isn't for rootedgrowth. unfortunately, i can't get any rye prepared correctly so i can't inoculate it with the liquid culture. in addition, i have waited 4 weeks for rye jars to colonize. nothing happened. period.

rootedgrowth, as someone who is in your situation and who is doing his best to campaign ardently against the latent stereotype of "rye is always an easy grain to work with," i feel your frustration. as i see it, you have a few choices. but first, realize that no one, not even the most knowledgeable members of this site, are going to be able to help you at this point (unless you divulge new information that could be of use). just read the above posts--do they help? not really. basically it's people saying, "well, rye works great for me, no problems; here's what i do." invariably they're doing the same thing as you. thus, you can continue to experiment with rye if you're willing to spend the time and energy working at something that has decisively failed you three times already. you could do it five times, like me, or 500 times. another option is to try a different grain. this is what i would suggest, and this is what i am going to be doing in a few days. i will be trying wbs and brf. there is no guarantee, of course, that either of these two grains will provide me with a suitable medium, as my inability to get proper moisture content in rye could be indicative of something else that is wrong with my technique.

as you might see, i'm not too interested in hiding my frustration with rye or mild irritation with people who give advice about rye but have never or rarely failed to use it themselves; if you haven't failed to colonize rye three or five times consecutively, then you are not a member of this minority population of myeclial hobbyists for whom rye is their greatest nemesis.

rooted, i hope i've helped give you some direction and (mycelial) food for thought. i apologize for such a long winded diatribe. in short, the hell with rye. try something else and don't waste your time with it--you can always come back. give liquid cultures a shot, too. and a glove box can't hurt; it isn't necessary, it's just a precautionary measure. you can, of course, pm me and we'll continue our anti-rye campaign in cognito, as it were. good luck.


--------------------
"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire


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