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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3866403 - 03/04/05 02:41 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Which plants kill viruses?





Broadly speaking the group of herbs referred to as Antivirals.These are herbs that kill viruses or render them unable to reproduce.

Specifically, Cat's Claw, Bearberry, Cayenne, Garlic, Clove, Gentian, Sage, Wormwood, Juniper, Thyme, Eucalyptus and a host of other herbs.These herbs are anti-microbial in general in varying degrees.

Quote:

Simply because things die at some point does not mean that there is a natural remedy out there for everything.





Lmao.And it just happens to occur during the beginning stages of useing herbs?Thousands upon thousands who have used antimicrobial herbs and have gotten better shortly after starting the herbs were just all pure coincidence?I think not.


Quote:

You seem to have dodged my actual question which was "why would there be a remedy for every single ailment?",




I thought I covered this.Anyhow, for an ecosystem to be balanced there must be a way to kill things when they become out of check.This includes population,power,etc.When somethign becomes unbalanced something comes along to put it into check.For example,If people were to overpopulate an area,food would run out and disease would run rampant and similar things would occur.This effectively cuts down the population in the area to a sustainable level.

Herbs are the balancing agent to microbes in general.This includes bacteria,viruses,fungi,etc that invade the human body.Now sometimes we cannot fight off these things and we become ill.We then need something to put our body back into balance.Without this we would die off in large numbers and run the risk of extinction in a matter of speaking.Not too long ago even the flu was deadly.Many colonial people and children died from the flu.Herbs changed that.Herbs were used to make teas and various herbal concoctions to fight it and help the body to fight it.Yes the flu does change constantly but the herbs strengthen our bodies and its actions in various helpful ways.Without herbs and medicinal plants there would be no medicine PERIOD.It makes sense that plants would be used to put virus populations into check.


Quote:

It has nothing to do with synthesizing chemicals correctly, and everything to do with testing to see if something is actually a cure, or if it is just believed to be cures.




It has everything to do with synthesizing natural compounds and chemicals correctly.If done even slightly incorrectly it could wreak serious havoc on our delicate chemical and cellular structures.

Many of these herbs have been tested repeatedly.Most herbs that are tested are found to be useful for their claims.However the ones that are tested and claimed false I believe a mistake was made or they had ulterior motives(incorrect dosing seems to be a problem in trials sometimes it seems).Every chemical has a purpose and an action.We dont understand nowhere near what there is to know about these chemicals.We know but a drop in the bucket.What we have learned about medicinal chemicals has been learned from plants and herbs.

Quote:

There are many ancient medicines which are actually effective, and many which are not at all. What science has offered us is a much more in depth way of testing different medicines to see which are real, and which are snake oil.




I have yet to truly find an herb which served no purpose.Some mistakes could have been made in ancient texts or it could ahve simply been an unchecked claim but the majority of texts are very accurate according to my knowledge.I've actually yet to test an herb which didnt live up to its claims.

Some herbs however have very subtle effects which arent noticed unless used in very large doses or for a long period of time.

Modern Science is an infant in the sea of knowledge.It has been around for about 150 years or less.TRaditional Chinese medicine which is often called fake by many westerners has been around for over 4,000 years.I find chinese medicine to be accurate.Traditional Chinese medicine uses purely natural substances to heal and uses mostly herbs.The chinese have a MUCH better record than we do for healing their patients especially in the department of side effects.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3866600 - 03/04/05 04:25 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)


Lmao.And it just happens to occur during the beginning stages of useing herbs?Thousands upon thousands who have used antimicrobial herbs and have gotten better shortly after starting the herbs were just all pure coincidence?I think not.


What about the thousands upon thousands who didn't?

Not too long ago even the flu was deadly.Many colonial people and children died from the flu.Herbs changed that

They did? The herbs that were being used for thousands of years changed that... right around the time modern medicine discovered things like vaccines, washing your hands, etc...?


I have yet to truly find an herb which served no purpose.

What do you mean by test? You mean you took it and thought "Yep, seems like it's working!"? 'Cause that's not an accurate test. You might want to read this: http://skepdic.com/control.html


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3867955 - 03/04/05 01:22 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

What about the thousands upon thousands who didn't?


THe vast majority of people get better after using herbs properly.Some cases are too far gone for any medicine.

Quote:

They did? The herbs that were being used for thousands of years changed that... right around the time modern medicine discovered things like vaccines, washing your hands, etc...?





Flu vaccines are quite ineffective.Washing hands began before colonial days.It was in the victorian era that sanitation improved.Modern europeans lost touch with most herbs for some time relying on only a select few mostly used and bought from "pharmacies" in the victorian era where opium and cocaine was in many OTC preparations.

Quote:

What do you mean by test? You mean you took it and thought "Yep, seems like it's working!"? 'Cause that's not an accurate test. You might want to read this




I take the herbs at varying dosages and I analyze the effects and I see if my condition improves or not and if so by howmuch at which dosages.Its not like I have a crack science team,a million dollar lab and tons of funding.Give me a break.

I have more experience with herbs than you period.Much more.I am mopre qualified to say whether or not something works.I have been my own guinea pig for years.As well as speaking to others about it including certified herbalists.Ive read many herbal studies and books.MANY.I know what Im talking about.

And you're attempting to pick apart what Ive said with arguments that dont hold up.Minor things.Try herbs yourself.You're a skeptic so you should have no problem with the placebo effect since you're arent believing in anything.In fact try kava for anxiety or nervousness,insomnia,stress,etc.Its powerful enough that you cant write it off as a placebo effect or any other excuse.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3867996 - 03/04/05 01:34 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I don't think you completely understand my argument.

I know kava probably works because its effects are well documented.

I've had the flu a few times, but never came close to death, same with everyone in my immediate family... yet none of us use herbs.

I have been my own guinea pig for years.

This. Is. Not. A. Scientific. Test.

Read the link I posted, it explains WHY double-blind tests are effective, and why anecdotal evidence is not. It really doesn't matter how experienced you are, there's no possible way of escaping placebo effects, personal biases, or misleading interpretations of cause and effect without a properly controlled study. It doesn't matter how stongly you insist that a single person's test can be accurate, it simply isn't, and there's a good reason that double-blind, controlled studies are the norm in real science.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Registered: 08/11/04
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3868112 - 03/04/05 01:59 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

This. Is. Not. A. Scientific. Test.

Read the link I posted, it explains WHY double-blind tests are effective, and why anecdotal evidence is not. It really doesn't matter how experienced you are, there's no possible way of escaping placebo effects, personal biases, or misleading interpretations of cause and effect without a properly controlled study. It doesn't matter how stongly you insist that a single person's test can be accurate, it simply isn't, and there's a good reason that double-blind, controlled studies are the norm in real science.





There are many studies on common herbs.However for reasons I have mentioned before it is impratical and impossible to test ever herb and plant especially long term.

I am only one man and Im not a millionaire so my resources are limited.

By your line of reasoning then we cannot assume anything we experience to be real or valid without scientific confirmation because we may be biased,we may misunderstand or life may just be one big placebo effect.LMAO.Does not food prove a remedy for hunger.Do we really need science to tell us so.Does not tea or coffee produce wakefulness.Surely we do not need science to confirm it.Science is very inefficient.These same people have been saying eggs are good egg are bad then theyre good again and then bad again and now only the yolks are bad.We've jsut covered no yes and maybe to the questions are eggs good for you and are eggs bad for you and still have no clear answers.Same with red meat.Its good then bad then good then bad and now its good in small amounts with the fat trimmed off.Again we now have covered yes no and maybe to the question is red meat good for you and is red meat bad for you.Science has a very bad habit of doing this and science doesnt even understand the human body very much at all let alone the effects of a substance on it.Studies prove somethign effective then another one say no it isnt and then another will come along and say well maybe...

Anyhow Ive repeatedly explained why it is near impossible and very impratical to test every herb and plant that comes along.

Ive also said multiple times that common herbs are well documented and have been tested.Yes in double-blind studies.Shouldnt that be sufficient?

Quote:

I've had the flu a few times, but never came close to death, same with everyone in my immediate family... yet none of us use herbs.





Also yet you are not exposed to colonial and victorian area conditions.You sit in a non drafty 72 degree house with plenty of running water which is clean.Now if you were exposed to 30 to 50 degree temps (maybe 60 at best) plenty of icy cold drafts and no clean running water you would stand a good chance of dying from the flu without herbs too.Sometimes in fact houses were unheated in winter.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3868217 - 03/04/05 02:28 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

By your line of reasoning then we cannot assume anything we experience to be real or valid without scientific confirmation because we may be biased,we may misunderstand or life may just be one big placebo effect.LMAO.Does not food prove a remedy for hunger.Do we really need science to tell us so.Does not tea or coffee produce wakefulness.

Well, there have been hundreds of studies about various foods and caffeine. The effects of food and caffeine have been documented to the point that we've got a pretty solid base of information that's far more evident than a clinical study.

We have lots, and lots of scam medicines out there. Ever been to quackwatch.org?

There are people who claim that psychic surgery works... and there are tons of people who claim it saved their lives to back it up. There are people who make all kinds of claims, and people who have tried these things... and then they are shown to be nothing more than placebo in clinical studies.

These same people have been saying eggs are good egg are bad then theyre good again and then bad again and now only the yolks are bad.We've jsut covered no yes and maybe to the questions are eggs good for you and are eggs bad for you and still have no clear answers.

That's a much more complex issue than you make it out to be. Look at all of the studies about eggs and cholesterol, and you'll get a better idea of why people are flip flopping on the issue. A clinical study isn't actually different from trying it yourself... it's just that it does it a whole bunch of times, and it compares it to people who think they're trying it but aren't. If the people who think they're trying it but aren't get the same effects as those who actually are... then isn't it kind of foolish to think that the herb is actually effective?

Also yet you are not exposed to colonial and victorian area conditions.You sit in a non drafty 72 degree house with plenty of running water which is clean.Now if you were exposed to 30 to 50 degree temps (maybe 60 at best) plenty of icy cold drafts and no clean running water you would stand a good chance of dying from the flu without herbs too.Sometimes in fact houses were unheated in winter.

They had blankets and fire back then, it's really not THAT hard to keep comfortable temperatures and to provide clean water. Also, people were still dying in warm climates as well.

Did you research this one, or just make that up on the spot?

Some herbs have been shown to be effective in double blind studies. Some have been shown to be complete failures, yet they're still sold as cure alls.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3868516 - 03/04/05 03:14 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

We have lots, and lots of scam medicines out there.




I know this very well.Medicines period both herbal and non-herbal and from every part of medicine.Those false claims come from modern people who are just trying to make a dollar at any cost and are dishonest con-men.That has nothing to do with any medicine system.

Quote:

There are people who claim that psychic surgery works... and there are tons of people who claim it saved their lives to back it up. There are people who make all kinds of claims, and people who have tried these things... and then they are shown to be nothing more than placebo in clinical studies.





Psychic Surgery isnt a substance or chemical that is recognized and shown to have an action and effect and/or properties in general.

But I understand where you are coming from.

Quote:

That's a much more complex issue than you make it out to be. Look at all of the studies about eggs and cholesterol, and you'll get a better idea of why people are flip flopping on the issue. A clinical study isn't actually different from trying it yourself... it's just that it does it a whole bunch of times, and it compares it to people who think they're trying it but aren't. If the people who think they're trying it but aren't get the same effects as those who actually are... then isn't it kind of foolish to think that the herb is actually effective?





If people are foolish period it means they are foolish period.If youclaim herbal medicine is crap because of the placebo effect you mus tthen claim that modern medicine is also crap since the placebo effect occurs in modern medicine just as well.Just as I can convince someone they are very ill and if they believe it they will begin to feel ill and often become ill by ctaching something now just becuase that occurs is one to say virus and bacteria are a scam?Herbs tested are often shown to be more effective than the placebo effect.Many useful heart medicines are herbal medicines derived from plants.Some of which were thought to be ineffective at one time or another.I have not known of a case where the effects of an herb were duplicated by a placebo effect by the way except in cases where improper dosing occurs even then the herbs perform slightly better than placebo.

Quote:

They had blankets and fire back then, it's really not THAT hard to keep comfortable temperatures and to provide clean water. Also, people were still dying in warm climates as well.

Did you research this one, or just make that up on the spot?





Its a lot harder than you think.Fires do not heat homes efficiently and it remains much cooler than modern heating methods.ALso its very drafty with the drafts being 50 degrees of less and at night it dips between 30 and 50 degrees when the fire dies out.I should know since I lived on a farm for many years of my youth and it was heated by a wooden stove.(IE a stove that produces heat by burning wood).It was a very old farmhouse.

My posts are based on actual experience and knowledge by the way.

Quote:

Some herbs have been shown to be effective in double blind studies. Some have been shown to be complete failures, yet they're still sold as cure alls.




This is the result of improper doses somewhat and more so exaggerated claims by lairs and con-men.This is not what Im referring to.I am referring to the claims made by ancient texts and by pre-modern books.(IE the 1890's or so on back to 2000 to 3000 BC)I am most definitely not referring to the con-men of today looking for a quick buck nor am I referring to their claims or other silly modern claims.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3870231 - 03/04/05 09:10 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Mullein and coltsfoot are the only herbal medicines I've tried that definately worked. Both are cough dispellers which makes you feel like you applied vicks vapour rub directly to your lungs. Wonderful stuff.

Most other herbal medicines I've tried were more for holistic treatment with no noticeable effects.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Registered: 08/11/04
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3870340 - 03/04/05 09:32 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Mullein and coltsfoot are the only herbal medicines I've tried that definately worked. Both are cough dispellers which makes you feel like you applied vicks vapour rub directly to your lungs. Wonderful stuff.





Mullein and Coltsfoot are the best medicinal herbs for the lungs that I know off.Mullein especially is very soothing.Lobelia when used properly is very effective as well.


Quote:

Most other herbal medicines I've tried were more for holistic treatment with no noticeable effects.




I bet they were store-bought supplements in tablets or capsules right?

The "Supplements" in stores contain way too weak of a dose for about 95% of products I see and produce a very mild effect to no noticeable effect to most people.The store bought supplements are also very very low grade material usually.Health stores carry a higher quality slection of herbs like GNC than say a grocery store and pharmacies tend to fall in between.If you're going to work with herbs I sugest buying herbs dried from a reputable herb dealer and get a capsule filling device and pocket/small electronic scale.This is how I work with herbs.I also wildcraft and grow my own herbs as well.Fresh is best but properly dried is a good second.

Many herbs like dandelion and burdock which I see require much larger doses than standard store supplements contain and recommend.Dandelion requires a dose of 9 to 15 grams grams.(slightly more than 1/3 ounce to slightly more than half an ounce daily)Burdock requires 3 to 6 grams daily.Most herbal supplements contain 500 mg(very common) (1/2 a gram) maybe a gram (rarely)at best and they usually recommend one to two capsules a day for these herbs.

Thats not even a 1/4 of the dose required for dandelion.And far from half of a good dose of burdock.Also they cost 7 to 12 dollars a bottle for about 60 to 100 caps while a pound generally runs about 4 to 5 dollars for these herbs.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3870567 - 03/04/05 10:01 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I bet they were store-bought supplements in tablets or capsules right?

No they were the actual herbs, dried and shifted or in powdered form. They may work, but I just didn't use them long enough to notice anything.

The mullein and coltsfoot I used were both dried and shifted from the same place I get all my legal herbs. Had to use coffee filters for the coltsfoot.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Registered: 08/11/04
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3870893 - 03/04/05 11:01 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

No they were the actual herbs, dried and shifted or in powdered form. They may work, but I just didn't use them long enough to notice anything.






(nods) I just assumed they were the crapy supplements people buy in stores as usually thats the problem when they dont work.Do you remember what herbs they were offhand?

Quote:

Had to use coffee filters for the coltsfoot.




What do you mean?


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3871021 - 03/04/05 11:30 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Herbs or supplements that did almost nothing; brahmi, ginko, sarsparilla, cats claw, suma, damiana, catnip, mugwort, maca, and a few others that were in a mix with other herbs. I know some of these take a while to work like brahmi but others like damiana were very disappointing.

Others I tried that had some sort of an effect; yerba mate (still take it), ephedra (big effect actually but shit), passionflower (nice), kava (illegal here as supplement so I capsulate the powder) and valarian (shit).

The coffee filters are to filter out the fine hairs when making coltsfoot tea which could otherwise make you worse.


--------------------
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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3871094 - 03/04/05 11:42 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Herbs or supplements that did almost nothing; brahmi, ginko, sarsparilla, cats claw, suma, damiana, catnip, mugwort, maca, and a few others that were in a mix with other herbs. I know some of these take a while to work like brahmi but others like damiana were very disappointing.





Hmm.Ive noticed that with myself some herbs work better than others for me.Even if they are similar one will always work better while others say different herbs(different than the ones that work better for me) work better for them.

Quote:

Others I tried that had some sort of an effect; yerba mate (still take it), ephedra (big effect actually but shit), passionflower (nice), kava (illegal here as supplement so I capsulate the powder) and valarian (shit).




(nods) Valerian was awful for me.It did work for my insomnia fairly well but I always got nauseated(due to taste I think).I could still taste it even though they were in capsules.I must have gotten powder on the outside.After puking up valerian once it tasted so awful I dont even want to see it again.Valerian to me, tastes and smells like very very old dirty gym socks and then some.

Quote:

The coffee filters are to filter out the fine hairs when making coltsfoot tea which could otherwise make you worse.




I thought you might have meant for tea but I didnt quite understand at first because I smoke medicinal herbs for the lungs as it makes more sense to me and I love to smoke herbal mixtures semi-occasionally.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3873250 - 03/05/05 02:31 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

I know this very well.Medicines period both herbal and non-herbal and from every part of medicine.Those false claims come from modern people who are just trying to make a dollar at any cost and are dishonest con-men.That has nothing to do with any medicine system.

It does to some extent though, the point behind peer-reviewed studies, and having certain standards for these things is to prevent such con-artistry. It might seem like there are lots of problems and stuff with modern medicine, but what you read about in the newspaper represents a tiny fraction of what is actually studied and published. It's because of modern medicine and science that we even know what things like the immune system are, and have an idea of how they work.

Generally when you do see problems with modern medicine, it's not that the medicine has been shown not to work... it's that it's been shown to have additional side effect


Its a lot harder than you think.Fires do not heat homes efficiently and it remains much cooler than modern heating methods.ALso its very drafty with the drafts being 50 degrees of less and at night it dips between 30 and 50 degrees when the fire dies out.I should know since I lived on a farm for many years of my youth and it was heated by a wooden stove.(IE a stove that produces heat by burning wood).It was a very old farmhouse.


Yeah, but why were people dying in warm climates as well?

I am referring to the claims made by ancient texts and by pre-modern books.

Oh, so fraud was invented recently?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3873509 - 03/05/05 03:56 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Generally when you do see problems with modern medicine, it's not that the medicine has been shown not to work... it's that it's been shown to have additional side effect





Many medicines do not work for everyone.I have tried dozens of precription insomnia meds with no results and I had been on a very wide spectrum of anxiety and depression meds and none of them worked either.So it is fair to say that not all modern meds work for everyone.It is also fair to say not all herbs are for everyone but am I to say all modern meds do not work and they are a scam because some of them did not work for me?

As far as side effects genera;;y modern meds have far more.The herbal equivalents tend to be much gentler on the body.Many depression meds cause major liver damage or worsen depression or have severe headaches or other awful side effects.The herbal equivalents do not have these effects.

Ibuprofen is very bad for blood pressure and the stomach.Herbal pain relievers do not have these effects.

Quote:

Yeah, but why were people dying in warm climates as well?




To my knowledge influenza was only a problem in the cold climates/areas.If in wtiner it gets below 40 or 50 degrees the cold becomes a major problem and complication during illness especially during high fever and can cause shock to the body.Even 60 to 70 degrees can be horrible and painful for someone with 102 ro 103 or higher temperature.This is why most people with high fever feel a need to keep covered with a blanket.A slight draft can be painful and a major shock to the body for some.

Quote:

Oh, so fraud was invented recently?




You are just full of negativity eh?lol.Anyhow...of course not but today it is a MUCH larger problem.Today also more people care less about such things and care more about making a buck.In tribal societies they do not have the capitalist drive and do not screw around with healing like americans do.Ancient societies also did not screw around and lie like modern americans do.Healing was a very serious thing then and problems with fraud were few.One can easily spot a fraud usually by their lack of knowledge on a plant or plants.True herbalists and herbal doctors generally do not commit fraud as a whole.Its not a problem among them really.Now the large companies they have much more incentive and tend to do anything for a buck so the problem runs rampant.

Perhaps if you had knowledge of your own you wouldnt have to try to dispel others knowledge of things you have No Experience with and do not really comprehend.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3873562 - 03/05/05 04:08 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Anyone wanna buy a Cherokee Hair Tampon? :grin:


--------------------

Edited by Paradigm (03/05/05 04:29 PM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3873766 - 03/05/05 05:05 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Many medicines do not work for everyone.I have tried dozens of precription insomnia meds with no results and I had been on a very wide spectrum of anxiety and depression meds and none of them worked either.

However, these meds have been tested and shown to have actual effects. Many herbal meds are completely benign, they simply need to be sold with the claim that they work in order to have people believe it completely.

The reason there are so many herbal meds with few side effects, is because there are so many without any actual side effects at all. Another reason is that actual drugs need to be sold with all kinds of warnings about potential side effects, which sets people up to experience these effects through placebo.



To my knowledge influenza was only a problem in the cold climates/areas.If in wtiner it gets below 40 or 50 degrees the cold becomes a major problem and complication during illness especially during high fever and can cause shock to the body.Even 60 to 70 degrees can be horrible and painful for someone with 102 ro 103 or higher temperature.This is why most people with high fever feel a need to keep covered with a blanket.A slight draft can be painful and a major shock to the body for some.


Sources?

.Anyhow...of course not but today it is a MUCH larger problem.Today also more people care less about such things and care more about making a buck.

Again, sources? This doesn't sound accurate to me AT ALL. I don't see any reason why someone selling herbals would be any more honest than someone selling a tested product. I also don't see why ancient cultures, which were plagued by crime and violence just like our own are, would have any less fraud than we do. This seems like an unfounded assumption to me.

Perhaps if you had knowledge of your own you wouldnt have to try to dispel others knowledge of things you have No Experience with and do not really comprehend.

I do have knowledge. I've spent lots of time reading about quack medicine, gotten in similar debates, and seen friends and family get taken in by scams.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3873787 - 03/05/05 05:10 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3874395 - 03/05/05 07:32 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Also, saying herbal meds don't necessarily have dangerous side effects isn't exactly true




Im not saying they cant have dangerous side effects but they are MUCH MUCH more rare with herbs and usually involve mixing herbs with meds that they shouldnt have or taking way too much or a similar human error.Occasionally it is due to additives added by companies and not knowing what theyre doing really.

Links = 5 out of 6 being from valley skeptic.Shall we look at the definition of skeptic...one who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.In short one who goes against what is known or accepted to be true habitually.That means regardless of anything they have their own personal agenda and motives for denying things.Not that they actually have a valid basis for their claims.Skeptics could have a comet nail them in the head and they'd still deny the existence of comets.LMAO.The second they think they found something to back them up no matter how absurd it is they spread it like gospel.

Link 1: Alright.Lets see.No dosage information.No telling how long she took it for.No mention of medications shes on to see it it was a drug interaction.No last name.No anything that could be used to assess the situation at all.Not to mention the site looks like a 2nd grader wrote it html wise.Not to mention he claimed it could kill you.LMAO.There is not one death associated with St. John's wort to date that I know of.I dont even know if this person is a real person.I cannot accept that as valid as anything what-so-ever.All we have is some person who have no details claiming St john's wort can kill you.Its a major exaggeration IMO.No medical names backing up anything either.One woman making an absurd claim.You honestly want me to make it valid.How do I know the side effects arent imagined?If you say my tests arent valid enough to say they work than how is one womans word who has no herbal knowledge mind you going to be valid?I or anyone else could make anything absurd claim about anything.Thats why drugs get a bad name.One person say something completely off base and its spread like gospel.LInk one is very invalid.

Link 2: Hmm A) Animal results dont equate to human results.Things tend to affect us differently than animals.This is why human tests are required. B) Any numbner of chemicals,herbs,prescription drugs and a number of things we clean with and eat can produce similar results.Too little info also.Very invalid. Also I qutoe from the article..."These findings may or may not have specific relevance for
humans."... I rest my case.And the world may end tomorrow... :rolleyes:

Link 3: Dynamic Page Generation Error: Undefined variable:$sourceid  I cant access it.

Link 4:
Quote:

More than 180 deaths have been linked to dietary supplements in the past few years, according to an FDA tracking system that lists voluntarily reported incidents only.





As opposed to well over 100,000 cases of prescription drug caused deaths
Quote:

every year.


Now those approx 60 deaths a year (many which are known to be from overdose and others due to allergy/drug interactions) are tiny in comparison to prescription drugs which over a few year period caused more than 300,000 deaths.Also ephedra is responsible for alot of those herbal statistics because overweight or otherwise unhealthy people went against the directions and consumed much more than recommended.The same thing will happen if you consume too much caffeine or any other stimulant.Ephedra's strength however makes it easier for the unknowledgeable to have ill effects.People assume it is like caffeine.

Quote:

Lashof and other scientists are particularly concerned about so- called ``bad boy botanicals,'' a broad group that includes ephedra, chaparral and a concoction known as dieter's tea.






Yes these are quite strong herbs and any knowledgeable herbalist will know not to abuse these herbs.People should know what theyre consuming and know how to use it.I mean you dont just pick up a bottle of tylenol and start eating it like food or candy and use it freely against the advice given on the package so why do it with herbal medicines?Common sense is a good thing to have.

Link 5: Echinacea is closely related to ragweed.A plant known for causing major allergic reactions.And 24 cases out of how many thousands of users?I find a higher percentage of allergic reactions among those who take precription meds.The article says it MAY cause allergic reactions which MAY be fatal.And I could walk outside and died from a bee sting suddenly without prior allergy to be stings.Lets look at the big picture.More people die from alcohol,drugs,precription meds,bee stings,flu,cancer,car accidents,allergies to food,etc or most any single source.Anyone could die from eating a wheat product by developing a sudden severe allergy.Things like this occur every year.Herbs are mostly harmless.They are safer than any other singular activity including driving to work.

Quote:

?People with allergies or asthma should be cautious with echinacea,
particularly if they are allergic to grass pollen,? he said. People with
hay fever who react to ragweed or other grass pollens may be more likely to
also react to echinacea, he explained.






Just as people allergic to bee stings could die fron ingesting honey or bee pollen and should be cautious.

Quote:

Nonetheless, echinacea is taken regularly by millions of Australians,
Americans and Europeans, he noted.






Millions of australians take it and only 24 MAY be prone to severe allergy.And let me say that ANY substance which is closely related to an allergy that you have MAY cause severe allergy and complications.This is not just herbs but meds,drugs,plants,food,etc
Invalid argument.24 people out of millions is a far better safety record than any meds or anything else.More people than that definitely die (not justmay) from consuming too much water every year or getting too much sun every year.BTW Id like to note that the natural form of herbs are never the culprit it always seems to be commercially altered and produced products and additives added to those products such as sulphur which causes many people a moderate to severe allergic reaction.

Link 6: ROFLMAO This proves you have little to no herbal or chemical knowledge GHB is NOT an herb nor natural occuring compound.It is a synthetic drug.Created much in the manner precription drugs are made.There is nothing natural about GHB.It has no bearing on herbal meds.And the fact that is caused hundreds of deaths a year versus about 60 or so from herbs (most of which being ephedra or similarly strong stimulants that are abused) shows that herbs are safer than even OTC man-made supplements.OTC supplements do not equate to herbs or natural products.

In short none of it shows that herbs are bad or harmful but rather that one may have an allergy to it or one may have some sort of interactiom but none of that is the herbs fault nor does it make herbs dangerous.You only served to strengthen my debate.

GHB info


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Edited by UnenlightenedOne (03/05/05 07:42 PM)

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OfflineEarthAngel
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Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 67
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3880349 - 03/06/05 10:05 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Too all the people who have NOTICED little or no affect after taking supplements, means you obviously didnt need it,were you tested to see if you did, or did you self prescribe yourself?
We find that alot of people dont notice a change in themselves until they stop taking the supplements.
And RE the first post with the info, although most of the herbs/vitamins mentiond have few contraindications, i never reccomend anybody self prescribe themself something, just because it worked for their friend or their neighbour!!!
Everybody is uniquie, everybody has different frequencies, intollerences, blood pressure, blood sugar levels, dis-ease's etc.. all information that one "prescribing" must take on board.
The safest way to test yourself to see if your body even needs anything, is to learn the simple art of keneisiology and muscle test yourself.
I stand my ground strongly when saying I would much rather lay in the garden and die instead of go to hospital to get pumped full of the ludicrous untested horrible side effecting drugs.
And even though it sounds like you know ur stuff Unelightened one, i found your arguement of the "I bet they were store-bought supplements in tablets or capsules right?" to be unethical.Sorry, but thats my industry and in this country there is not many grow ya own fixme uptea goin on in our backyards, maybe where ever you are you have stronger regulations on what they are allowed to sell?, Basically, we have a range of strengths according to each individuals needs.
Anyway hppy debating:)

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