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InvisibleTerrapinSunrise
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basic grain theory
    #3856738 - 03/02/05 12:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so i read magash's simple grain tek recently and have begun thinking about grain basics. let me see if i understand this correctly:

1) innoculating grain is no different from innoculating pf-style jars (aside from requiring a PC to sterilize the grain initially).

2) quart jars of grain (rye, for example) colonizes even faster than 1/2 pint jars of BRF/verm.

3) 1 quart = 4 1/2 pints. does 1 quart of rye yield more than 4 pf jars?

4) rye cannot be used to spawn other media, but wild birdseed can and the procedure for wbs is identical to the preparation of rye.

so then, given that one has a PC, it seems logical to do quart jars of grain instead of 1/2pts of pf jars. why would anyone bother with pftek if grain is the nearly the exact same procedure (you still get to observe the entire mushroom cultivation process)?

for anybody who does quarts of grain, what dimensions of container would you use for a casing (assuming you want a good 3 inches or so of substrate for big flushes)? are there really any reasons a relatively low-experienced cultivator should NOT do quart jars of grain?


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InvisibleSemilanceata
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3856807 - 03/02/05 12:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

1)Right if you?re inoc. with spore syringe/liquid myc.
2)If everything goes fine, yes.
3)Maybe yes, maybe not.
4)No, you can use rye as spawn.


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OfflineDiMiTriSouljah
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3856816 - 03/02/05 12:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

1.) True. I would use two holes with rye quart jars, one breather (stuffed with polyfill, or covered with a tyvek disc), and one inoculation hole.

2.) True.

3.) 1 quart = 2 pints. Depends on what you do with rye. But usually true.

4.) Rye can be spawned to anything. So can WBS.


--------------------
In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3856834 - 03/02/05 01:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

They aren't the same procedures.

1) No. When inoculating grains you have one inoculation point instead of four.

2) Yes they can colonize much faster. Mainly due to the ability to shake the contents and distribute spores originally, and mycelium later on in the growth stage.

3) Too many variables to give a straight answer there.

4) Rye and WBS are BOTH used to spawn other media, and they can BOTH be used to fruit on directly.

The tremendous advantage of grains is also the ability to do grain to grain transfers. In other words: Once you get a master jar established, it's as simple as transferring spoonfuls to other sterilized jars of media. Imagine how far 2 cc's can go. This also eliminates inoculating every single PF jar with a needle, 4 holes at a time.

Hope that helps!


--------------------
To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.


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InvisibleTerrapinSunrise
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: Holydiver]
    #3856893 - 03/02/05 01:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

whoa, cool stuff.

what i really do not understand this this lid-tyvek situation? what the hell is that about? grains need oxygen transfer because? pftek doesn't use anything special, so i don't get it. (if you think this is explained elsewhere, please don't yell and tell me to search forums - just point me to someplace if you yourself can't or do not wish to explain the filter-lid stuff.)

and with grain-to-grain transfer, i suppose you need a flowhood or seomthing similar? has anybody had success in transfering grain-to-grain in the open air? thanks guys.


peace.


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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3856905 - 03/02/05 01:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

#1
Yeah thats true ...inoc is a inoc.
With exception of style of inoc...syringe,tissue,wedge.
#2
Not to sure on that , but grain IMHO would be faster due to food source is more fluffy and broken up so easier for myc to travel thru it,and is more paltitable to the myc in the sense that it is in a more natural form.
#3
I believe a full qt = 4 pints or 8 1\2 pints , as far as how much you fill them , that can very depending on size and variety of grain being used.3\4 full is what most do as far as cooked grain ready for inoc, a tad fuller for syringe inocs , but you want some space to allow room for shakies :cool:
#4
No. Rye can be used as spawn material , just does not break into as many points of inoc as easily as a wbs mixture will. Yes basically prep is the same.
(edit, add period and Cap the R) THHHHHHHHPTTTTTTTTTT does this read better now? :wink:

It is matter of preference and willingness to try grain. Grain is way to go IMO.
Half pints of grain do well to , just smaller scale , they colonize like wild fire. I for one like to inoc 1\2 pinters with agar , then once fully colonized use those to g2g inoc qts.As far as size of tray to use , its up to you , and how many jars you want to produce and use at once. Aprox 6 qt jars will fill the bottom of a 13x9 cooking pan 2.5-3 inches deep and allow enough space for casing...aprox...it can vary.
GL
PS skill level has zip to do with size jars one should use IMHO.


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

Then the priest fell into a trance or swoon,& said unto the Queen of heaven ; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law !


Edited by tripndicular (03/04/05 02:02 PM)


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Offlineonetime
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: tripndicular]
    #3856922 - 03/02/05 01:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i have known people who use rye for spawn why do you say you cant it just dosent need to used as spawn wbs is best for spawn but rye works too


--------------------

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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: Holydiver]
    #3856923 - 03/02/05 01:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

1) No. When inoculating grains you have one inoculation point instead of four.

How so ... if doing agar wedge inoc you can have just as many if not way more points of inoc? And same goes with syringe ... if you make more than one hole in lids you have more points of inoc again.


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

Then the priest fell into a trance or swoon,& said unto the Queen of heaven ; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law !


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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: onetime]
    #3856938 - 03/02/05 01:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

onetime said:
i have known people who use rye for spawn why do you say you cant it just dosent need to used as spawn wbs is best for spawn but rye works too




I did not say rye cannot be used as spawn ...did I ? :confused:
I thought I said you can but does not break up as easily, it tends to stick together a tad more IMO.


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

Then the priest fell into a trance or swoon,& said unto the Queen of heaven ; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law !


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InvisibleTerrapinSunrise
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: tripndicular]
    #3857047 - 03/02/05 01:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i think that i said that about rye. i thought i read that rye wasn't so good for spawning shit. i heard wbs was better, so i was just clarifying. but apparently you can use rye for spawning too. that's cool.

according to a conversion table, 1qt = 2pts.

i'm feeling the tug toward grain... right now i'm dealing with crappy pf cakes that are not yielding anything. my techniques are comepletely sterile and i have no contams, but i have no mushrooms either. i think casings are my solution since it will provide better environmental conditions. if i'm going to case, i might as well case big - quarts of rye.


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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3857066 - 03/02/05 01:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Not to sway you or anything.
Cakes can be crubled and cased.
Grain is best and if got sterilization down pretty good ...go for it , just remember cook jars for 55 min to 1 hr 10 [Email]mins@15[/Email] psi.

GL and welcome to the real discovery .......GRAINS ROCK! :cool: :thumbup: :sun: :grin:


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

Then the priest fell into a trance or swoon,& said unto the Queen of heaven ; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law !


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InvisibleTerrapinSunrise
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: tripndicular]
    #3857089 - 03/02/05 01:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i already know that pf jars can be crumbled and cased, i may try that soon, as the PC works wonderfully

but honestly, i'd rather crumble and case a quart of rye than a 1/2 pint of bfr.... i dunno, i have this feeling inside that says "do it" and not only will it colonize faster (pf jars are taking me 4-6 weeks to colonize at 80 degrees!), but i'll actually get some mushrooms from it - and some big ones at that.

i just have to figure out what this tyvek lid stuff is all about.... ?


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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3857099 - 03/02/05 02:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'll probably get slammed for this ...but...
It is not a "requirement" to use filters on lids of grain.
You can just invert the lids , cover with piece of foil as a dust cover.
If they stall , crack lids a tad and turn upside down for a day or two.
But there is lots of stuff here on that topic , happy reaserching  :cool: :thumbup:

Sorry I invert lids due to no holes in the lids. But you can still do it and be fine is my point.


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

Then the priest fell into a trance or swoon,& said unto the Queen of heaven ; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law !


Edited by tripndicular (03/02/05 02:02 PM)


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InvisibleTerrapinSunrise
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: tripndicular]
    #3857177 - 03/02/05 02:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

what you mean by inverting the lids? isn't a lid still a lid whether inverted or not inverted? it's just a disc-shape, right, so why would inverting a lid make any difference at all? what's the idea behind grain lids anyway? you just want the jar to have air exchange unlike with pf jars? i'm confused...


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3857197 - 03/02/05 02:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's as simple as this: Grains need air exchange. You can make a simple and very effective lid by buying a bag of Poly Fill at Walmart, drilling one 1/4" hole in the top, then stuff it with Poly Fill. You can inoculate directly through the hole of Poly Fill! That's it in a nutshell. Very very easy--get it down and you'll have a lifelong filter top solution.



--------------------
To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.


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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3857218 - 03/02/05 02:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry did not mean to confuse you.
I do jars the "old" way. You invert the lids (rubber side up) so that they do not vaccum seal when they cool after being PC'd. It also allows a way for Co2 to escape when you flip the jar over(IF one sees stalling of myc growth). I just keep foil over the tops to act as a dust cover for when they are sitting and growing myc. And because I inoc with agar wedges there is no need to drill holes in them at all, and the lids open right up and suck in no air(that may have contams)when doing the inoc procedure.
Hope this clears things I said up for you.


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

Then the priest fell into a trance or swoon,& said unto the Queen of heaven ; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law !


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InvisibleTerrapinSunrise
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: Holydiver]
    #3857224 - 03/02/05 02:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

do you use verm at the top of the jars as a buffer for contams? since you do a lot of shaking, i suppose not eh? what are the added contam risks with these filter methods?


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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: TerrapinSunrise]
    #3857244 - 03/02/05 02:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No. Verm is used in casings and as a contam barrier not to "buffer" with.
And no like you said ...since plan on shaking grains vo verm barrier.

Filter disks supposedly help prevent contams yet allow for gas exchanges. Now the poly fill method works , but it can bring in contams like a wick. If it ever got moist or wet and something grew on the outside portion it can wick in nasties.


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

Then the priest fell into a trance or swoon,& said unto the Queen of heaven ; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law !


Edited by tripndicular (03/04/05 02:04 PM)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: tripndicular]
    #3857310 - 03/02/05 03:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Haha trip, you did say rye cant be used as spawn. Accidently though. You said:

"No rye [meaning no kinds or brands of rye] can be used as spawn material , just does not break into as many points of inoc as easily as a wbs mixture will."

The last part also adds to the first "no rye can be used" because you make it sound like not breaking up into many point as WBS illiminates it as spawn. All ya needed was "No[,] rye can be used as spawn material" :smile:

Isnt communications fun?


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: basic grain theory [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3857313 - 03/02/05 03:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Also I told you [sunrise] that I posted my method here, but that was another post..I'll put it here too though..similar to the method you looked at, just a little different..

I always add about 10% verm to my grains when they drain. After draining for about 20 minutes..pour in dry verm and mix it around. The grains should all be fully swelled with water, but the outsides shouldnt really look wet.


24 hour soak, wbs in one, rye in the other

Rye/wbs mix being strained after the simmer. Notice the steam. I never rinse my grain once, right after the simmer the water steams right off, also why it only takes me 10-20 minutes to drain that much grain (to the point where verm can be mixed in)

The mixture with verm fully strained and ready to be PCed:

After pressure cooking:

La de da:





--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Edited by scatmanrav (03/02/05 03:02 PM)


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