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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3851434 - 03/01/05 10:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
We actually have the ability to look at DNA and how it changes. We can see what traits are passed on, and what aren't. We can see how DNA changes over the lifespan of an organism.




Have we looked at the genetic code of a man in his 20's and compared it to his code in his 40's?

Quote:

Phluck said:
People certainly don't magically grow genetic changes to their advantage when they need them. Nothing like this has EVER been observed.




I dont think that evolution has been observed either. It's still a theory.

Quote:

Phluck said:
Would you feel comfortable telling someone who designed microchips that their understanding of how electricity works on a microscopic level is all wrong? If not, why do you feel comfortable saying that geneticists have it all wrong and you know better than they do?




We didnt design DNA like we did with the microchip. We are trying to understand DNA and how it works. I think we have lots more research to do before we fully understand how evolution works.


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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851453 - 03/01/05 10:41 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I dont think that evolution has been observed either. It's still a theory.

Sure it has: bacteria and other single-celled organisms mutate and evolve at a much faster pace than us multicelled organisms.

Take a look at antibiotic-resistant bacteria and you will see evolution in action.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851461 - 03/01/05 10:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

niteowl;

what is it about the word evolution that actually attracts you.

clearly you are as qualified as most here to start a thread about it, but it is obvious that you have zero understanding of the underlying science, or of the meaning of chance in science, which includes fractals, statistics, vitality of breeding populations, randomness of mutation, and the generality of survival of the fittest (which is not about fighting or sports).

is that why you chose a spirituality and philosophy platform for this thread?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851481 - 03/01/05 10:47 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Have we looked at the genetic code of a man in his 20's and compared it to his code in his 40's?

I've heard of lots of studies about how well our DNA holds up over time, so yes, I'm certain we have.

I dont think that evolution has been observed either. It's still a theory.

Bzzzt. Wrong.

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoNatSelWild.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

We didnt design DNA like we did with the microchip. We are trying to understand DNA and how it works. I think we have lots more research to do before we fully understand how evolution works.

I didn't ask about designing the microchip, I asked about our understanding of how electricity works, and we certainly didn't design that. However, we had to learn quite a few things about it to be able to use it the way we can now. Just like genetics, we don't know EVERYTHING about genetics, but we do know a lot more than you seem to think we know. We know how durable genes are, we know what causes them to change. We know how to make them change. We know how to mix and match genes. We know how to get all the data available in genes... and in order to do all this stuff, we've had to learn a whole lot about genes.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3851535 - 03/01/05 10:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is that why you chose a spirituality and philosophy platform for this thread?




HUMAN evolution is still a theory, not a fact. Single celled organisms are a far cry from the complex multicelled creatures we are. We haven't proven that we evolved yet. Thats why I put it in the S&P forum.

Do I believe that we evolved...yes.

Do I think that it was a completly random event....no.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851543 - 03/01/05 11:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It's not random, it's actually pretty structured.

Each individual genetic change is random, but the process by which the advantageous changes are able to be passed on to subsequent generations is anything but.

Again:

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoNatSelWild.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

The only reason we haven't proven 100% that we evolved is because we can't go back in time.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3851671 - 03/01/05 11:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well what is it about humans that makes you think we are designed so elegantly? If we don't brush our teeth we get dental problems. We get cancer. We have heart attacks, strokes. We kill each other. We are full of random violence and freak occurences. The human race is a highly volatile pool of muck waiting to explode.

I like humanity though, don't get me wrong. I love humans. But you are talking like we were designed by "someone or something" and that our evolution wasn't "random". It wasn't random, but those of saying evolution isn't random are using the word random is much different sense than you.

Oh, by the way, it's actually up to someone to disprove a point, instead of having someone prove it. You can prove it for a hundred million years and be proved wrong in one sentence. So instead of telling us to tell you why evolution is right, why don't you tell us why it is wrong? With some facts?


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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: freddurgan]
    #3851693 - 03/01/05 11:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If we don't brush our teeth we get dental problems.

This is more a result of our diet (lots of refined sugars) than physiology. As well, MANY animals can get tooth decay...its just that most of them eat foods that help reduce the risk of tooth decay. We, on the other hand, go almost entirely for taste alone.

We get cancer. We have heart attacks, strokes. We kill each other.
So do most animals.

We are full of random violence and freak occurences.

Same

The human race is a highly volatile pool of muck waiting to explode.

From my point of view, the human race is pretty much the same as the rest of the Life on this planet...we just pay a HELL of a lot more attention to our OWN SPECIES than we do to any others so we get this idea that humans are inherently vile/evil/violent.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: trendal]
    #3851740 - 03/01/05 11:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Take a look at antibiotic-resistant bacteria and you will see evolution in action.




Again this is an example of the organism trying to adapt to its changing environment.


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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851767 - 03/01/05 11:56 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes but the POINT was that single-celled organisms evolve in a far different manner from multi-celled organisms.

A SINGLE cell can experience IMMEDIATE advantage due to a change in DNA coding, because the cell only HAS a single strand of DNA - if it changes, the cell changes. Adaptation for a single cell is relatively easy because of this.

A mutlicellular organism cannot do this, however. If you change the DNA in any random cell in your body, ONLY that cell and its offspring (not YOUR children, the cells that this one cell may divide into) experience the change due to DNA. The rest of the cells in the body still all have their own DNA, and for most of them this will be the same copy of DNA that you were born with. Adaptation for a multicelluar organism MUST be system-wide to have any real effect, otherwise all you are changing is single cells.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851775 - 03/01/05 11:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is that why you chose a spirituality and philosophy platform for this thread?




HUMAN evolution is still a theory, not a fact. Single celled organisms are a far cry from the complex multicelled creatures we are. We haven't proven that we evolved yet. Thats why I put it in the S&P forum.

Do I believe that we evolved...yes.

Do I think that it was a completly random event....no.




it is a theory that you may not comprehend; and it explains more than any other theory with respect to species and speciation.

It is not about humans exclusively, and until you study biology in more depth you will not have the hooks to hang the understanding of this concept upon.

randomness is another thing you could come to better grips with, both aspects of this question (human life & the randomness of its appearance) relate to a kind of beauty in the universe and its underlying processes: humans are not the pinnacle of a single purposed life force, merely one of the multitudes of expression of that potential which is still being realized.

if you are not happy about some real but accidental aspects of your existence, do take some comfort that creation is an ongoing process.


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Edited by redgreenvines (03/01/05 11:58 AM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: trendal]
    #3851831 - 03/01/05 12:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
A mutlicellular organism cannot do this, however. If you change the DNA in any random cell in your body, ONLY that cell and its offspring (not YOUR children, the cells that this one cell may divide into) experience the change due to DNA.




If we can change the genetic code of our sperm(single cell) then our offspring will benefit from the change.

Thats what this thread is all about. Geneticaly changing our sperm to effect our evolution.

This can only be done in men since we produce new sperm daily. Women are "hardwired". Their eggs cant change. They were born with all the eggs they will ever have. Their genetic code in their eggs came from the genetic adaptations of her father.


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Don't be bogged down by your past
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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851876 - 03/01/05 12:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But changes in our genetic code DON'T happen. "IF" is a big word, because "IF" we could just change our genetic code then this debate wouldn't be here and science would be completely different.

Just trying to adapt to an environment won't change your DNA.


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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851891 - 03/01/05 12:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If we can change the genetic code of our sperm(single cell) then our offspring will benefit from the change.

That is not "adaptation" though, because it would not benefit the father organism in any way whatsoever (other than making his children more adapted, but a lot of good that will do if the father dies due to the new environmental pressure that HE is unable to adapt to).

Again: there is no known function by which a multicelled organism can alter its own DNA in response to environmental pressures.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851892 - 03/01/05 12:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

niteowl, we know what you are saying. Trendel and Phluck have tried to EXPLAIN that you are wrong, to help you understand the process of evolution.

The fact is, you are wrong. There is really no debating it. There is no "philosophy" behind your idea. It's just not true. If you want to understand evolution, read a biology book.

I just don't understand what you are trying to prove by posting the same wrong thing over and over again...?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3852090 - 03/01/05 12:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This can only be done in men since we produce new sperm daily. Women are "hardwired". Their eggs cant change. They were born with all the eggs they will ever have. Their genetic code in their eggs came from the genetic adaptations of her father.

If you expose eggs to radiation, you can damage their genes as well.

When the eggs are first produced, they will have a few mutations in them as well. Mutations that are just as significant as the mutations you'll see in male sperm. The events in the life of the person will not make their mutations any more advantageous than the mutations you will see in eggs.

These are facts of genetics that we have already figured out. Just like we figured out that cows have 4 stomachs, birds can fly, and there's that nifty fish that spits at bugs to shoot them out of the air.

Then again, why am I telling you this, if learning stuff was what you were interested in, you'd be reading some biology books, not repeatedly trying to tell people on the internet that you know more about genetics than the people who discovered genes, and have been dedicating their lives to studying them, tediously running thorough tests, comparing their results with other scientists, trying new experiments and possibilities, publishing articles, considering the criticism from other scientists, etc...

It's not like science is a bunch of guys sitting around in their basement hitting the bong and then going "whoa, what if our physical growth is dictated by strands of proteins contained in our cells, wouldn't that be FUCKED you guys?"

There are actual very rigorous processes for testing ideas before they are accepted as interesting possibilities.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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mutilation is not mutation, [Re: niteowl]
    #3852227 - 03/01/05 01:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

ironically even if you did it right you would not have exerted much control over anything if you use any human egg cells that have not also been tampered with too.

now that I know what you are trying to say it is even a lamer topic than the title suggests.

it is way way harder to change the contents of a sperm cell than an egg cell since it is so much tinier.

and there is no evolutionary supremacy to male or to female, (we are one species) and tampering with testes is not evolutionary progress.


what a dumb topic, I feel almost embarrassed commenting, but it would be criminal to let it just go.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3852338 - 03/01/05 01:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
It's not like science is a bunch of guys sitting around in their basement hitting the bong and then going "whoa, what if our physical growth is dictated by strands of proteins contained in our cells, wouldn't that be FUCKED you guys?"





That was the funniest shit I've ever read.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3852395 - 03/01/05 02:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Phluck said:
It's actually a very rational and well laid out theory that is not only elegant, it has been observed, and it makes sense. The only way the theory of evolution could look like a cop out is if you didn't have a good grasp of what it actually is, and why scientists have this idea.




At least we agree that it is only a "theory" and no way to prove it. To say that we have observed "evolution" is a bit of a stretch. We have observed mutations in nature but cant prove that the mutation came from a random event or from our ability to adapt.

I believe that our ability to adapt has much more to do with our "evolution" than random mutations. That the ability to adapt to the environment is the driving force behind the mutations.



We can adapt our behavior to our surroundings, and teach that behavior to each new generation, but we cannot purposefully adapt our genes. That comes about through mutation.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Silversoul]
    #3852570 - 03/01/05 02:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
We can adapt our behavior to our surroundings, and teach that behavior to each new generation, but we cannot purposefully adapt our genes. That comes about through mutation.




So you saying that the sperm that I produced when I was 18 is identicle to the sperm that I will produce when Im 45.

I would like to see a link to the results of that study.


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