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OfflineGazzBut
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Individual Vs Collective Rights
    #3850514 - 03/01/05 04:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It seems to be a popular idea around here that the rights of the individual are more important than the rights of groups or the collective. What I can't quite grasp is how the rights of one individual can be more important than the rights of a group when a group is made up of many individuals. Anyone care to shed some light on this?


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OfflineTao
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: GazzBut]
    #3850857 - 03/01/05 07:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i think its more about setting the precedent of a tyrranous majority. first one minority's rights are trampled upon, then when that is done, then another, etc. I believe we allow groups like skinhead nazis to organize protest marches not so much because we are concerened for their individual rights (since they clearly do not respect the rights of certain indviduals) but because to not respect any minority's rights is to set a dangerous precendent.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Tao]
    #3850858 - 03/01/05 07:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is along the lines of how J.S. Mill justified individual rights in On Liberty according to a Utilitarian value system.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Tao]
    #3850868 - 03/01/05 08:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

i think its more about setting the precedent of a tyrranous majority.




I can fully appreciate that. But obviously a system can include safe guards against such things.

My problem with the premise is that it tends to exacerbate the state of hyper-individualism we see so much of in modern society where there is no real appreciation of the fact that we exist as a small part of a greater whole.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: GazzBut]
    #3850906 - 03/01/05 08:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It seems to be a popular idea around here that the rights of the individual are more important than the rights of groups or the collective.




it's doesn't seem, it is.

Quote:

What I can't quite grasp is how the rights of one individual can be more important than the rights of a group




ask that question and relate it to the patriot act.


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: GazzBut]
    #3850910 - 03/01/05 08:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's not so much that people around here recognize the rights of an individual supercede the "rights" of a group as it is they recognize groups don't possess rights. Individuals do.

What "rights" does one gain by joining a group? None.
What rights does one lose by joining a group? None.

You as an individual either have the right to (for example) defend yourself against an attacker or you do not. Joining the Rotary Club or the Church of England does not negate your right to defend yourself.

You either have the right as an individual to rape women or you do not. Joining a Muslim "honor killing" gang does not grant you that right.


Phred


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Phred]
    #3851017 - 03/01/05 09:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What "rights" does one gain by joining a group? None.
What rights does one lose by joining a group? None.





Members of the group "police officers" have the right to arrest citizens
Members of the group "UK Citizens" have the right to vote in UK elections, with some exceptions
Members of the group "Aged over 18" have the right to drink alcohol in the UK


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: GazzBut]
    #3851102 - 03/01/05 10:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Members of the group "police officers" have the right to arrest citizens
Members of the group "UK Citizens" have the right to vote in UK elections, with some exceptions
Members of the group "Aged over 18" have the right to drink alcohol in the UK





It is not mandatory and no rights are removed by not joining the police
the UK Citizens (as far as I know) don't lose rights if they don't vote
Those people over 18 don't have to drink alcohol, hence not be part of that group


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3851226 - 03/01/05 11:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Those people over 18 don't have to drink alcohol, hence not be part of that group




You misunderstand. The fact they are over 18 means they are a member of the group "people aged over 18". Whether they choose to excercise their right to drink they still gain it through their group membership.

Quote:

It is not mandatory and no rights are removed by not joining the police




Ok I suppose I was responding mainly to the first of Pinky's two statements i.e: "What "rights" does one gain by joining a group? None."

I think I have demonstrated that you can indeed gain rights by joining a group.

So the second statement which you have chosen to focus on is "What rights does one lose by joining a group? None."

Members of the group "Imprisoned criminals" lose the right to vote.
Members of the group "Convicted Speeding drivers" lose the right to drive.
Obviously if you extend the premise to more diverse communities the list become endless, for example:

Members of "ethnic group X" lose the right to Y in community Z
Memebrs of "Gender X" lose the right to Y in community Z

etc.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: GazzBut]
    #3851275 - 03/01/05 11:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It would appear that what we have is a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "Rights!"

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Members of the group "police officers" have the right to arrest citizens





I do not know about the UK, but in the US all citizens have a right to arrest other citizens that are in the commission of a crime. Police officers have a few privileges such as ticketing on misdemeanor charges and searching on behalf of the court.

Quote:


Members of the group "UK Citizens" have the right to vote in UK elections, with some exceptions





That would be a privilege of the citizen not a right.

Quote:


Members of the group "Aged over 18" have the right to drink alcohol in the UK




That would be a privilege as well.

A right is endowed by your creator, The right to free speech, the right to defend your self, the right to choose the religion that you believe is correct. A privilege is bestowed by the government and restricted to small select groups of people.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3851305 - 03/01/05 12:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So, in your opinion, what are "rights" as opposed to privileges?

Edit:

Sorry see you had already answered that:

"A right is endowed by your creator, The right to free speech, the right to defend your self, the right to choose the religion that you believe is correct. A privilege is bestowed by the government and restricted to small select groups of people."

Firstly who is this "creator" who bestows these rights?
If he is so powerful and these rights are inherent how come they are so easily overturned by mere mortals. i,e the right to free speech is not existent in many societies?

In fact the right to free speech is most certainly not bestowed by a creator it is bestowed by the government of the society in which you live.

We could go into the whole natural rights thing again but if you search the archives you will see it has been done to death. There are no natural rights bestowed by any creator that are consistent with all human beings...but im more than happy for you to prove that wrong!


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Edited by GazzBut (03/01/05 12:08 PM)


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3851306 - 03/01/05 12:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


A right is endowed by your creator, The right to free speech, the right to defend your self, the right to choose the religion that you believe is correct. A privilege is bestowed by the government and restricted to small select groups of people.




Governments grant themselves and their agents the privilege of restricting your excerise of rights, by talking your life if necessary. They would say that they have the right to, because they represent the majority.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: psilomonkey]
    #3851336 - 03/01/05 12:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:
Quote:


A right is endowed by your creator, The right to free speech, the right to defend your self, the right to choose the religion that you believe is correct. A privilege is bestowed by the government and restricted to small select groups of people.




Governments grant themselves and their agents the privilege of restricting your exercise of rights, by talking your life if necessary. They would say that they have the right to, because they represent the majority.




Representing the majority is a democratic view of rights. This would be the belief that the rights are endowed by the majority and not by the creator. Many Americans have been taught that it is the government or the "Voters" that give them there rights. This is wrong! It is the creator that endows the rights and the government as well as the people are supposed to be banned from interfering with those rights.

In a representative republic (What the US is supposed to be) the government is restricted (by charter) from interfering with the exercise of endowed rights.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3851420 - 03/01/05 12:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

In a representative republic (What the US is supposed to be) the government is restricted (by charter) from interfering with the exercise of endowed rights




Therefore, in reality, the rights are endowed by the charter, not by the creator.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: GazzBut]
    #3851458 - 03/01/05 12:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You misunderstand. The fact they are over 18 means they are a member of the group "people aged over 18". Whether they choose to excercise their right to drink they still gain it through their group membership.




I agree with you that some groups offer some rights and exclude others (I tend to think this example of age is not the same as lets say some other governmental agency, group, assoc....etc.), however I believe that if someone decides not to be in any such group (and the age thing is something that can't be avoided) then rights should not be taken away. For example, the national ID card idea is for the betterment of the whole (in the government's eyes) however, if you choose not to go along with it you will not be able to do certain things.

Quote:

I think I have demonstrated that you can indeed gain rights by joining a group.




true, however I was referring to the fact that not joining a group should not exclude anyone from rights that they now enjoy.

Quote:

Members of the group "Imprisoned criminals" lose the right to vote.




I think you are losing the original message that you started this thread with. When I refer to individual rights before collective rights, I'm referencing the fact that individual rights should be respected before any group is formed. Taking away anyones individual rights to please any group is the beginning of a dictatorship. Lets take this forums favorite topic of drugs. Some believe it's their right to smoke pot because it's their body. However an overwhelming majority believes that that person should go to jail. I disagree, I believe it is up to the individual.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: GazzBut]
    #3851520 - 03/01/05 12:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

In a representative republic (What the US is supposed to be) the government is restricted (by charter) from interfering with the exercise of endowed rights




Therefore, in reality, the rights are endowed by the charter, not by the creator.




No, The rights are endowed by the creator.

The charter just restricts the government from interfering with those rights.

Here is an example. The first amendment to the constitution of the United States

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This gives no rights! It only says that the government can not infringe on those rights.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3851573 - 03/01/05 01:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So who is this creator and how does it bestow these rights? How can you prove to me these rights have actually been bestowed in reality and the whole thing is not just a concept that only exists in the minds of men?

Edit: added 'not'


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Edited by GazzBut (03/01/05 01:14 PM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3851608 - 03/01/05 01:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So what you are getting at is that in your opinion no group should be allowed to have the right to take away certain rights from any individual i.e the right to free speech, the right to live peacefully etc? Therefore individual rights in that sense trump group rights as these individual rights must be upheld as a pre-requisite to the bestowing of any group rights?

On that we agree.

However, I do not think that there are any inherent natural rights that apply to the individual simply through that person being born or created. To me "rights" are merely a mind construct that we use to create the rules of play that govern the way we interact with one another.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: GazzBut]
    #3851807 - 03/01/05 02:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

On that we agree.




yes we do.

Quote:

However, I do not think that there are any inherent natural rights that apply to the individual simply through that person being born or created.




There are no such thing as natural rights. Rights are man made. Who determines what rights are applicable? If there are no rights then noone here should have a problem with the US killing arabs since they have no right to live.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3851852 - 03/01/05 02:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There are no such thing as natural rights. Rights are man made. Who determines what rights are applicable? If there are no rights then noone here should have a problem with the US killing arabs since they have no right to live.




I agree rights are man made and see them as being normally applied on a personal level by each individual and on a collective level by the source of authority/law etc in any given society.

Really to be more accurate I think they could be given a different name...maybe shoulds?

i.e you should be able to live in peace etc etc.

Are we in complete agreement?!!!


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