Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Polypropylene Grow Bags   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Capsules   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies
    #3850126 - 03/01/05 12:41 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I am going to briefly touch on a variety of herbs and natural items in relation to the treatment of mental disorders and various conditions from my experiences as acting as my own personal guinea pig as requested by SocietyRejects.Everything here is from extensive personal experience and at a variety of dosages.

Herbal medicines and natural remedies are an excellent way to heal one's self.

The main benefits being:

* They are often very cost effective.Modern medicines on the otherhand tend to be very costly for most things.A month of anxiety meds for example can run 20 to 60 dollars or sometimes more per month and generally have many awful side effects while for many individuals they simply dont work very well or at all.Also they simplymask the problem.Herbs on the otherhand tend to ease the problem while allowing recovery to occur mentally and it allows one to deal with the underlying issues.

* Herbal medicines have little to no side effects(as I mentioned briefly a moment ago).Generally most OTC and prscription meds have a wide avriety of side effects that seem to plague many individuals.Many modern meds are also harmful long term whereas the majority of herbs are much gentler and are much safer for long term use.Personally I usually experience no side effects from herbs unless I take too large of a dose (IE much more than I need to treat my condition and probably just too much in general at once).I have suffered no ill effects from any herbs I have used long term.

* Many herbal meds have been in use for many centuries or more whereas modern meds may be tested for 2 years briefly in a few conditions before they are released en masse.This has caused many recalls including an infamous instance of a specific cough syrup causing spontaneous strokes in some women from late teen years to early to mid twenties in age.Herbs on the other hand are usually very well documented and have a long history of safe use.

* Herbal meds may also be produced at home and administered very easily.Many herbs and plants can be grown and wildcrafted around the yard or on various land.Many herbs are also very easy to grow in the garden.

* Learning about herbal meds is also very useful if you spend alot of time in the wild as in camping and etc in case emergency situations come up or inconveniences occur and you are caught without meds and are far from the nearest city.Knowing herbal meds and being able to identify herbs is a very useful skill.

* Herbs generally treat most conditions better,faster and more efficiently than modern meds.Modern meds generally consist of one or two main compounds extracted,powdered and put into pill form most commonly or even extracted into a liquid medicine which may sit arounf for months before you buy it and use it.Herbs on the other hand can be use 100% fresh and retains all the chemical potency whereas pills and liquids start to deteriorate bit by bit after being produced.Also herbs can contain as many as a few dozen synergistic compounds which enhance the effect of the main compounds.Also the synergistic compounds often time prevent/treat side effects such as nausea,headache,etc. which is prevalent among OTC and prescription meds since those compounds are left behind.


* Herbs overall seem to be better and there is no better way to get in touch with nature than hernal meds.

Lets look at a few herbs and natural remedies and the conditions they treat as well as optimal dosage ranges among other things.

Vitamin C

Vitamin C while not an herb is a natural remedy.It is a very common ordinary vitamin that can accomplish extraordinary things and generally with no side effects.

Vitamin C has been known and proven to:

* Protect LDL cholesterol from oxidative damage.( LDL cholesterol damaged appears to lead to heart disease.)

* Reduce free radical damage

* Increase the healing rate of wounds

* Detoxify the body and help to excrete toxins such as lead and mercury and other toxins

* It boosts the immune system

* It increase muscle strength in moderate doses and strength blood vessels.

* May prevent cataracts

* It has also been shown to speed muscle recovery

* It also cuts the production of the stress hormone cortisol down greatly.

* It also has been shown to reduce the frequency of asthma attacks and to help relieve bronchitis

* Studies have also shown vitamin C to significantly reduce blood pressure over the course of one to a few months.

Personally I find the most effective use of vitamin C to be for speeding the healing of injuries and wounds,boosting the immune system,reducing stress greatly and supporting adrenal function as well as lowering blood pressure.These effects seem to be the most significant in my experience.

I personally use vitamin C in 2 gram (2,000 mg) doses 3 times daily to relieve stress.Generally morning noon and night.I find it takes 3 days to receive the full effects.Mild relief is felt 1 to 3 hours after a 2 gram dose however.Around the third day of daily doses of 6 grams total daily it kicks in fully.It greatly cuts cortisol production and makes it
Quote:

a lot


harder to become stressed and promotes calmness.This is great for anxiety disorders and stress disorders in general.I personally only take it for these purposes for periods of 4 weeks at a time as needed however it can be taken daily indefinitely without ill effect indefinitely.

At a daily dose of 2 grams (2,000 mg) I found it to only relieve about a third of my stress.I was not satisfied with this as I was still very stressed.So I decided after a week of 2 gram daily doses that I would up this to 4 grams a day. I took 2 grams every mornign and night for a week.This lead to the relief of about 2/3 to 3/4 of my stressed feeling and made me feel much better.However I was still a bit stressed and unsatisfied.I then upped it to 6 grams a day and took 3 grams morning noon and night and I felt full relief of my stress and stressed out feeling byt the middle of day 3.I kept this dose for about a week then stopped.I decided to see if stopping suddenly would cause any ill effect.I felt no side effects during any of the doses and I felt none after stopping.However after stopping my stress slowly returned and each day it worsened until the end of day 3 when the stressed feeling returned fully.

I am now testing the blood pressure lowering effects during a 3 month course of 6 grams daily taken 3 time a day as I was diagnosed with high blood pressure not too long ago.Oddly enough during the time I was diagnosed with it I had not taken herbs for several months as money was VERY tight I though I should give a break to my system anyways just in case.I now am starting back up on herbal meds to reduce my blood pressure and eliminate the Prescription meds Im on which my doctor insisted upon for short term.I reluctantly agreed.I have many bad habits which are known to cause high blood pressure or increase the risk of it nto to mention a long family history of it and a high salt intake.Im making many changes to fix this.I am sure I will be able to do so in a timely manner.Aside from high blood pressure I am very healthy.I almost never get sick and I cannot remember the last time I puked.lol.The only time I get sick is usually in winter and Im not taking any herbs/matural remedies at the time and I spend too much time in very cold temps and then come indoors near when I go to bed.I generally get sick maybe once every 3 years or less and it generally lasts a lesser amount of time than it would for others.I have eliminated my asthma with herbs as well as OCD,depression,and Post traumatic stress disorder.As well as little things like migraines and such.Note: Dosages of vitamin C over 8 grams can cause diarrhea or kidney stones in a small amount of individuals although many can consume 30 grams of more without ill effect.Dosages of over 100 grams have been used in medical tests without ill effects and has been proven safe even in such high doses.The optimal dose in my opinion is 6 grams daily divided into 3 doses.

A great herb to increase and enhance the stress relief properties of vitamin C is white ginseng.

Ginseng

Ginseng is the next herb we will look at.Ginseng is excellent for treating stress,stress disorders and anxiety disorders.It is also very effective for boosting immune function and regulating blood pressure.These seem to be the most effective uses of it.

Ginseng has been shown to:

* stimulate both mental and physical activity in fatigued individuals

* regulate blood pressure.Lower high blood pressure and raising low blood pressure.

* Prolong physical endurance

* reduce stress

* support the adrenal glands and is effective in treating adrenal exhaustion

* stimulate the endocrine and sex glands

* boost the immune system

Personally I find the best use to be for stress reduction in my personal experience.I tried red ginseng thinking all ginsengs are alike.I consumed one 500 mg capsule (standardized to 35 mg ginsenosides) daily for two weeks and found that the whole time I remained over-stimulated and felt irritable as a result.I soon switched to white ginseng at a dose of 500 mg in capsule form standardized to 35 mg of ginsenosides and found it to have a very calming effect and to remove all stress and I found it very hard to get stressed or angry.In fact it was impossible for me to get upset at all when I took 6 grams of vitamin C daily while taking the 500 mg of white ginseng.The red ginseng seems to be stronger and more physically stimulating than the white ginseng which seems to affect more mental processes and seemed to be gentler.I took the red ginseng for 2 weeks and the white ginseng for two weeks and I tried the 6 grams of vitamin C along with 500 mg of white ginseng for 2 weeks.I allowed one week rest between each test period as you are not supposed to take ginseng for more than 3 weeks without giving a one week rest period generally its taken in a 3 weeks on/one week off pattern.Doses of 500 m are optimal and I saw no need to go hgiher 1,000 mg may be taken but various side effect can occur from 1500 mg to 3000 mg according to reports.High regular doses in excess of 2 grams or more can often cause sleeplessness, muscle tension, and swelling/fluid retention.This is a sign of taking way too much.Also buy quality ginseng as cheap ginseng is often cut with caffeine and imported to the us by dishonest companies and people.



Our next herb is cayenne.

Cayenne (and capsaicin in general)

Cayenne can be grown and dried or bought very readily making it easy to obtain and use.A desireable cayenne heat unit range is 50,000 Heat units to 150,000 heat units.The best range is anything over 100,000 heat units.The long thin cayenne is about 50,000 heat units.Other chili peppers can be used liek the thai chili pepper which rate about 100,000 heat unit or you can use birdseye peppers which rate between 100,000 and 200,000 heat units I would not exceed 200,000 heat units because this could have ill effects on those who arent use to such spicy food.This means no habaneros (200,000 to 300,000 heat units) and definitely avoid red savina habaneros which rate at 570,000 heat units and is declared the worlds hottest pepper.Pure capsaicin (the active chemical) rates at 16 million heat units.If you dont wish tog row those varieties listed earlier you can buy 40,000 90,000 and 130,000 heat unit cayenne powder from www.herbalcom.com for between 3 and 7 dollars per lb depending on heat units.


Cayenne has been shown to:

* stop internal bleeding when consumed

* stop even aterial wounds from bleeding when large amounts of the powder are poured on the open wounds.There are reports of stopping bleeding from gunshot wounds using this method but people complain of the burning sensation for a short bit after application.I dont know how valid the gunshot claims are but it is very possible.

* warm the body (I use it for this effect in winter with excellent success.)

* stimulate stopped hearts or arrest heart attacks when given a dose of the tincture every 15 minutes until recovery(Doctors have made this claim)

* Promote sweating

* clears congestion and mucus ( I also use it for this effect on myself and others with great success.)It works for lung/chest congestion as well as nasal congestion but be warned that it often causes lung congestion to be expelled in my experience which can be very unpleasant.It can cause coughing to expel loosened congestion shortly after taking it.Sometimes a lot of coughing.

* relieve diarrhea and dysentery

* reduce cholesterol build up

* boost immune function

* adapt one better to hot climates ( I find this to be very true)

* Promotes wound healing and helps to prevent formation of scars

* increases circulation

* reduce clotting inside blood vessels

* helps prevent heart disease

* stimulates digestion

* relieves pain when applied topically(Cayenne is often found in herbal pain relief balms and is the effective ingredient in tiger balm)

* is said to make veins more flexible often lowering blood pressure caused by hardening of the arteries

Personally I find it most effective for warming the body,clearing congestion,pain relief,increasing circulation and adapting to hot weather.It seems to have all these effects simultaneously.It is best taken either in a drink like juice,milk,etc but it must be non-carbonated as carbonation seems to increase the heat of hot peppers or it can be taken in teas or as a tea in hot water.The dosage is 1 teaspoon added to about a cup of water or juice,milk,etc.A tincture can also be made but I didnt find it neccessary to make a tincture.

Over time people will adapt to the heat of the hot peppers.If you are unsure of how hot you can handle peppers choose a 40,000 or 50,000 heat unit powder or pepper and work up from there.The peppers and powder keep very well for at least a year without much degradation and tinctures have been reported viable without much loss after even 20 years.It preserves very well.

I find that regular use leads to more energy and a better adaption to hot climates when taken daily.Long term use has no ill effects and I experienced no side effect except for the burning sensation on the tongue and sometimes a numbing of the lips if it touches the lips.Long term use shows no side effects.I use it daily as before using it I was very prone to heat stroke before using it.Now I can handle the hottest temps without a problem.The optimal dose is 1 teaspoon 3 times a day.For congestion use 1 teaspoon as needed.For temporary use like dysentery,diarrhea,stimulation of digestion use as needed in 1 tsp. doses.For long term uses like adaptation to hot climates,reducing cholesterol,reversing hardening of the arteries,increasing circulation and similar long term uses,use one tsp 3 times a day such as morning noon and night.

This was a lot of typing and my fingers are tiring so...I tell you what.I will post occasionally about the uses of herbs and will try to cover 3 herbs or substances in each post like this one on a semi-regular basis.

I hope you all enjoyed this post and I hope a few of you have learned something.In the first few herbal uses posts I make I will be covering common herbs are they are easiest to find,buy and use and are generally the safest.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3850759 - 03/01/05 04:25 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Herbs generally treat most conditions better,faster and more efficiently than modern meds.

I'd like to see some examples where this is actually true. There are often studies done where various herbal meds that continue to be touted as wonder medicine have been shown to be no more effective than placebo.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3851895 - 03/01/05 12:21 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'd like to see some examples where this is actually true.




From my experience I find it to be true when using time honored herbs in pure form.There are many instances however where companies dont add enough of the herb to have an effect or seem to make farfetched claims based on a tiny amount of information that isnt accurate.

I would definitely be wary of companies making near-miracle claims and "new" herbs and herbal compounds.Generally they usually dont work and have a much smaller dose than needed as well as the product often being adulterated by other things.

Prescription drugs often come from plants in various forms or often they mimic plant compounds IE synthesizing the chemical in a laboratory after seeing the same chemical in a plant.

There are many studies where herbs have been shown to out-perform prescription drugs or shown to be just as effective.However there are also many studies showing how some claims made by companies arent true.This is why herbal information must come from a source other than a retail company like an herbalist or naturopathic doctor.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3851992 - 03/01/05 12:41 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

This is why herbal information must come from a source other than a retail company like an herbalist or naturopathic doctor.

Are they not a retail company in a sense? Even if they believe it to be true, they could be wrong. Often anecdotes can be misleading. Individual people experience changes in health all the time, and it's not always for the same reasons they might believe. That's why if something hasn't been demonstrated to work in a double blind test, you should be skeptical of it.

Until something has been conclusively tested, you can't really tell if it's anything more than a placebo. Even very honest and well meaning people can be misled by their own enthusiasm.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3853034 - 03/01/05 04:01 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Hi Phluck. Haven't seen you around in awhile.

From a philophical perspective, it would make sense that mankind's food (natural foods such as fruits, vegetables, plants, etc) not only keeps mankind going but some foods have special qualities. This includes medicinal qualities if you believe in The Way.
Check out the Native Americans. They used trees and plants in so many different ways, and this included medicine for an enormous variety of problems.
Check out Asian medicine. Ayurvedic medicine. Pre-pharmaceutical American medicine. All of it goes back to herbs.
If you have a few dollars and the time & energy, I highly recommend reading a few "herbals," books on treating illnesses with herbs. There are some out there from before BC times.
Herbalists were at one time the true physicians.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3853195 - 03/01/05 04:28 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Are they not a retail company in a sense?




No not really.I've spoke with herbalists from this area (both american and chinese herbalists) and they know what theyre talking about.Everything they have ever shown me or told me has proven true.

Quote:

Individual people experience changes in health all the time, and it's not always for the same reasons they might believe.




And it just magically happens to coincide with starting and stopping herbal treatments as well as being affected by dosage?I think not.

Penicillin is derived from mold.Capsaicin (and many OTC pain relieve balms)is derived from cayenne.Aspirin was derived from willow bark.Morphine and codeine is derived from the opium poppy.The heart medication digoxin is derived from foxglove.The list goes on.And what isnt derived from natural sources are based on those natural sources of chemicals.Without herbs there would be no modern medicine.Without herbs there would be no entheogens period.

Quote:

That's why if something hasn't been demonstrated to work in a double blind test, you should be skeptical of it.





I agree one should be wary if something hasnt been tested.Then again you should also be wary if it has been tested by a large company with ulterior motives.Some common herbs have been tested but only because if they work they plan to capitalize on it.Therefore commonly only a few common and regularly used herbs are tested.Uncommon herbs arent often tested and herbs that have no commercial potential also are not tested often times.If you doubt something,try it for yourself after reading literature and find the optimal dosage and evaluate the effects yourself.


Quote:

Until something has been conclusively tested, you can't really tell if it's anything more than a placebo. Even very honest and well meaning people can be misled by their own enthusiasm.




Many of the herbs effects cannot be easily mistaken for a placebo effect since it is so effective and strong enough.If you dont believe in the power of herbs try taking opium poppy(if legal in your area) for pain relief.Its one of the most powerful pain relievers out there and has been in use for over a millenia.Modern medicine has been around for about 150 years only.Herbalism has been used for many thousands of years and chinese herbalism has been used for 4,000 years and ayurvedic medicine which also uses herbs has been around for 5,000 years.These entheogens and plants people use today to get "high" have been is use for hundreds of years if not thousands of years by ancient peoples and civilizations.

I am sure many here can testify to the effect marijuana has on pain and nausea as well as the opium poppies effectiveness for insomnia,pain relief and nervous disorders.If you dont believe in the power of herbs how can you believe in the power of entheogens?It seems absurd.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: World Spirit]
    #3853249 - 03/01/05 04:35 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Check out Asian medicine. Ayurvedic medicine. Pre-pharmaceutical American medicine. All of it goes back to herbs.
If you have a few dollars and the time & energy, I highly recommend reading a few "herbals," books on treating illnesses with herbs. There are some out there from before BC times.
Herbalists were at one time the true physicians.




:thumbup: And btw ALL modern medicine is derived from plant or other natural sources.Either directly by extracting the compounds or mimicking them or indirectly by research of the compounds and creating a "branch-off" chemical based on the original compounds.Even LSD is merely refined and altered LSA which occurs in many plants in the convulvulaceae family.LSD is always derived from a natural source of LSA whether ergot fungus or another fungus or rarely LSA containing seeds or plant material.Even cocaine is derived from the coca plant directly.

Man has always relied on herbs for healing and spiritual purposes.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3853396 - 03/01/05 05:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Here's the breakdown for what you mentioned:

1) Natural remedies.
- using plants (leaves, roots, fruit, etc), trees (bark, leaves, fruit), fungi, vegetables, fruits, vines, etc.

2) Semi-synthetics
- A.) A substance prepared by chemical synthesis from natural materials.
- B.) A substance consisting of a mixture of natural and synthetic substances.

3) Synthetics
- Prepared or made artificially


Now, if we believe in the power of nature (or is it Nature?), we must believe that medicines exist since problems also exist. We must also believe that medicines are available in their natural state without tweaking them thru a bunch of chemistry preparations.
It makes much more sense for a human to look to the woods for medicine than to a laboratory.
"Let your food be your medicine, and let your medicine be your food." - Hippocrates

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: World Spirit]
    #3853813 - 03/01/05 06:27 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It makes much more sense for a human to look to the woods for medicine than to a laboratory.




:thumbup:


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: World Spirit]
    #3854550 - 03/01/05 09:37 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

From a philophical perspective, it would make sense that mankind's food (natural foods such as fruits, vegetables, plants, etc) not only keeps mankind going but some foods have special qualities. This includes medicinal qualities if you believe in The Way.

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "makes sense". Why would mankind's food have special properties? What's 'The Way'?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3854638 - 03/01/05 09:53 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

And it just magically happens to coincide with starting and stopping herbal treatments as well as being affected by dosage?I think not.

Well, since millions of people world wide have decided to take herbal medicines, it would be highly unlikely that this didn't happen now and then. There are lots of people who have claimed that things that have been DEMONSTRATED to be con artistry cured them, like psychic surgery, snake oils, etc...

Penicillin is derived from mold.Capsaicin (and many OTC pain relieve balms)is derived from cayenne.Aspirin was derived from willow bark.Morphine and codeine is derived from the opium poppy.The heart medication digoxin is derived from foxglove.The list goes on.And what isnt derived from natural sources are based on those natural sources of chemicals.Without herbs there would be no modern medicine.Without herbs there would be no entheogens period.

Never said that there aren't medicines that come from natural sources. But there's nothing special about any of these drugs that makes them intrinsically safer than synthetic drugs.


If you doubt something,try it for yourself after reading literature and find the optimal dosage and evaluate the effects yourself.

What I'm saying it that trying it for yourself is completely unreliable. People can convince themselves that absolutely anything is true if they're expecting it to be true.

Many of the herbs effects cannot be easily mistaken for a placebo effect since it is so effective and strong enough.

When around 7% of the people who receive placebos in clinical studies decide they need to quit taking them because the side effects have become too powerful, I have trouble imagining that people can't convince themselves that pretty much anything works.

The amount of time that these medicines were used isn't actually evidence for anything either. People believed the earth was flat for thousands of years as well.

I'm not denying that there are natural medicines out there, but without proper testing there is no way we can know for sure which ones work and which don't. Some aspects of modern medicine might be based on ancient practices... HOWEVER, it is also based on the scientific method. As soon as researchers began using the scientific method, they quickly learned how easy it is to fool people into believing that practically any medicine is working. This is why double-blind testing was developed.

http://skepdic.com/control.html


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: World Spirit]
    #3854646 - 03/01/05 09:55 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Why would there be medicines for all our problems? I don't see why this makes sense, or why it makes any more sense to look in the forest for cures than in a laboratory, unless you have a bias against human creations.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe_phoenix
Stranger

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3857531 - 03/02/05 01:59 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Great post! :thumbup: I learned a lot. It's time I start taking some of the natural medicines you mentionned on a regular basis. I look forward to your future posts. :laugh:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3861175 - 03/03/05 02:25 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Well, since millions of people world wide have decided to take herbal medicines, it would be highly unlikely that this didn't happen now and then. There are lots of people who have claimed that things that have been DEMONSTRATED to be con artistry cured them, like psychic surgery, snake oils, etc...




Those things are unproven.Herbs are time-proven and numerous studies have been done on common herbs with potential for commercial application.Even the small amounts of herbs tested tend to show quite positive results.However yes some herbal claims are debunked by tests but I have yet to find an herb which all claims on what they help/cure prove to be false.Most common herbs are well documented throughout history for many centuries and millenia.Also what is the difference between taking the raw form versus an extract of one of the chemicals produced by the plant as found in OTC and prescription meds?Are you saying modern medicine is also a con?ALL medicines are derived form plants,fungi or other natural organisms in some way,shape or form.Whether directly extracted or mimicked or produced form a chemical extracted from plants or fungi.No matter how you paint it,to call herbs a con is to call modern medicine a con as herbal medicine formed the basis for modern medicine and it also gave way to modern meds which are derived from plants and fungi.

Quote:

Never said that there aren't medicines that come from natural sources. But there's nothing special about any of these drugs that makes them intrinsically safer than synthetic drugs.





Its been shown that the raw form (IE whole plant material vs extracted chemicals) work synergistically and it tends to produce much better results as well as eliminating most or all of the toxic side effects that occur when taking only the extracted or mimicked chemical.An example is diuretics.Chemical diuretics lack potassium.Natural herbal duiretics contain plenty of potassium to replace what is lost.The chemical diuretic can cause potassium deficiency resulting in increased blood pressure,unbalanced electrolytes and numerous dangerous health problems.The herbal diuretic contains potassium and thus avoids these health problems by replacing lost potassium.This means dangerous and toxic effects and conditions are avoided making it indeed safer and better.

Its also been shown that synthetic substances cannot produce the same results as natural substances whether its vitamins,food,herbs,etc.Science lacks the technology to create a perfect duplication with all nutrients perfectly intact and in the right ratios and other factors.

Quote:

What I'm saying it that trying it for yourself is completely unreliable. People can convince themselves that absolutely anything is true if they're expecting it to be true.





IM saying YOU yourself should try it.I mean what better way to prove somethign than to have a skeptic analyze it.Since you dont believe they work you should not have a problem with expecting it to work or believing strongly to produce any sort of placebo effect.Otherwise do some research.And dont find an article that says this herb doesnt do this specific action and stop.I mean do some in depth research.

Capsaicin a leading ingredient in OTC balms for pain relief comes directly from hot peppers.These balms are in WIDE use and often prescribed by doctors and passed MANY tests and has been in use for quite some time.Now why would it not be logical that eating or applying a preparation of hot peppers to the skin would work the same way if not better.(Better in many ways since you can actively control howmuch capsaicin the preparation contains and you canmake it stronger to suit your needs.)Also the chemical is fresh and more potent VS a balm thats been sitting for 3 months or many more by the time you buy and use it.Most chemicals degrade rapidly meaning theyre less potent that when freshly extracted or created.

Just as a fruit off the tree will taste better than an 8 week old fruit from the store.The tree fruit will contain much more nutrition as well obviously.

Quote:

When around 7% of the people who receive placebos in clinical studies decide they need to quit taking them because the side effects have become too powerful, I have trouble imagining that people can't convince themselves that pretty much anything works.





A mere 7% is a tiny fraction of the whole group.If out of 100 that means 93 people dont have that problem vs a mere 7 which did.Thats a tiny number.

Can you say caffeine is a placebo effect?Drink a pot of coffee and tell me that it doesnt help fatigue.LMAO.Coffee is an herb (or considered a non herb plant by some people).Its a purely plant source.Drink several cups of tea and tell me you're not feeling energetic and that it also doesnt take away fatigue.Coffee is also a slight diuretic.Im sure you will notice this too.lol.


Quote:

The amount of time that these medicines were used isn't actually evidence for anything either. People believed the earth was flat for thousands of years as well.





Typical cynical/skeptic comeback.LMAO.Medicines which are well recorded for thousands of years are far different than a mere theory which was impossible to prove at those periods of time.Just as natives on an island might believe that no other land exists in the world.They have no way of testing that.Its just a theory.However herbs have been tested by doctors for millenia in various ways.And its very likely that if a medicine did not work one would not continue to use it.

Lets say you went to the doctor and got a prescription.Now lets say you take it as prescribed for a period of tiem and it doesnt do anything.Now is it likely you will keep taking it indefinitely if its not helping at all?No.Is it likely you will recommend iot to your kids or your grandkids or future generations?No.

Things which didnt work or dont work die out quickly.They would bot have lasted for thousands of years of use if they didnt work and didnt help.

And tell me this.If herbs are useless and dont work,where do you think all prescription meds come from?Some magickal formula invented from thin air by chemists?As the rule goes,"Something cannot be created from nothing."They have to have a place to find these chemicals to extract them test them study them and then if they can...mimick them.No plants = very few compounds if any to study for medicine.I mean the chemicals or base compounds morphine,acetminophen,aspirin,etc arent exactly found in rock or any inanimate object created by nature.Not in water,not in rock,not in air.They are only found in plants and toher natural substances.On rare occasion animals.(For gland extracts,hormones,amino acids,etc.) You need living natural substances to produce any medicines.Whether by extraction or mimicking.Why?We can only make use of animate things as human beings for 99% of nourishment our cells need.We only use a TINY amount of minerals and metals.Merely trace amounts.Vitamins come from living or once living sources so even their sources have to have had life at some point.If it wasnt alive its likely useless and dangerous to use as medicine.

Quote:

I'm not denying that there are natural medicines out there, but without proper testing there is no way we can know for sure which ones work and which don't.




Many common herbs and plants are tested but its too expensive and impractical and impossible(considering one should be ALIVE at the end of the experiments) to test every plant to its full capacity.By the time someone would the the centuries and millenia to do so many plant species will have changed or disappeared and perhaps mutated into new species or varieties.Much data would be lost over such a time span as we have lost much ancient knowledge of our ancestors of yesteryear.

There are over 300,000 plant species in the world.A single plant can take twenty or more years to see its full capacity and to see short term and long term effects and etc.Many herbs have cumulative effects (as well as many medicines) that are much more evident after many years of use versus a month's time of use.Even spending only 1 month on each plant species (which is so very far from an adequate timeframe)assuming there are precisely 300,000 species it would take 25,000 years to test them all.One week on each plant species would take approx 5,769 years and one day on each species would take approx 822 years.Like I said HIGHLY impractical not to mention insane amounts of money required.A Single double-blind study can costs tens of thousands of dollars or more at the minimum multiply that by over 300,000 plant species.Research money is used very carefully.So they test common herbs only (also commonly used as spices everyday by people) that hold great promise.Mostly in the way of a "potent miracle drug" to sell the the highest bidding company.Pharmaceutical companies dont make money off of healthy people.They are in it for health but rather for what their drugs seem to promise and if they kill a few people in the process they dont care.If drugs cause side effects it means more sales for them.If you get a headache,you buy more drugs like tylenol.If you get moderate to strong nausea you buy anti-nausea meds.Their in the business of selling the illusion of relief whether it truly heals or not.A great example of this is the anxiety meds which seem to help but when you stop using them your condition is still the same.Many herbs for anxiety on the other hand help to rebuild the nervous system and rejuvenate it instead of masking it.Another great example of this is antacid meds.MANY are made with mint and mint oil.Mint only makes you feel better but in reality makes the condition worse.It promotes more acid and allows acid reflux to occur by relaxing the esophageal flap.This results in more acid damage to the body.Oddly enough Mint is the number flavor usually created by adding mint oil.Herbalists dont tell people to take mint for heartburn or acid reflux they know better.They know what it does.

This is why Im skeptical of modern medicine and pharmaceutical companies.By truly healing and curing people they would lopse BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars.Money the very thing they're after.Now if they make people feel better but dont cure them.They MAKE BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars and it increases as the population does.Now why would they deliberately do the opposite of what they need to do to make money?These same companies hold onto patents as long as possible and fight to keep them so they cant be made generically so people can afford them better instead of paying a 300% inflation or more for a name brand drug which isnt any better nor does it differ in any way usually.

I gave many years to modern meds and got nothing in return but more health problems and many side effects.I gave many years to herbal meds and I have regained most of my health from the ailments I had along with the damage caused by the meds.In fact one "miracle" med I was on was now recalled for causing severe liver damage and liver failure since they only tested it for 2 years before releasing it as a top selling drug.Properly used herbs dont cause these severe side effects(mind you not the only side effect it had) but properly used prescription meds do.You may be skeptical of herbs but I am skeptical of modern meds.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3861189 - 03/03/05 02:38 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why would there be medicines for all our problems?




What point would there be for an organism which cannot be killed by another substance?It would overrun all species and cause total collapse of an ecosystem.I mean yes the immune system could kill it but if it did how would the virus propagate itself?There has to be an equal balance so for life there must be death.For all living things.Man has always looked to nature to solve all problems from hunger to clothing to medicine to cure ills.Nature is god's/gods'/goddess'/goddesses' chemistry lab (if you believe in a deity or deities) or perhaps evolution's chemistry lab(if you dont believe in a deity or deities).


An ecosystem must be a circle to work.Everything must be food for something and killed by some things to create a balance.Many plants are shown to kill other organisms namely bacteria and viruses.(Antibiotics are derived from plants and fungi btw.)Just as we are poisoned by certain chemicals and subtances as they disrupt our biological chemistry in a negative manner in which we cannot function any longer,many plants contain poisons which act in the same manner on bacteria and viruses.So therefore consuming plants which are shown to kill bacteria and viruses but have no ill effect on humans (due to being too small of a dose usually to affect us negatively)would be beneficial or IE a medicine.We therefore get better are the plant chemicals would help our antibodies to be more successful in fighting off viruses and bacteria by killing all or some off when we are overwhelmed by then.Therefore they can restore health.

Quote:

I don't see why this makes sense, or why it makes any more sense to look in the forest for cures than in a laboratory, unless you have a bias against human creations.





Why would you trust modern medicine which has been around for a mere 150 years at most to know enough to try to synthesize and mimick a chemical perfectly when you can get the real thing which has been dveloped for millions and millions of years.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3861202 - 03/03/05 02:49 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Great post! I learned a lot.




Thanks.Im glad I was able to be of help.

Quote:

It's time I start taking some of the natural medicines you mentionned on a regular basis. I look forward to your future posts.




I got back into the habit of taking it regularly myself.lol.I took a several month absence from taking herbs and I become significantly ill.How ironic.However since taking them again I am recovering my health and feeling better.

I buy some herbs in bulk as I can only wildcraft certain things in my area.Some herbs I use are non-native to my immediate area or even region.Other herbs I can only get limited quantities of by wildcrafting and I only have a certain amount of growing space in the garden.Later Im putting in an order for 6 lbs of herbs.3 lbs each of the two most common herbs I use currently.Also being late winter my wildcraft and cultivation supplies in storage are greatly dwindled.But the good news is soon enough wildcrafting season begins again.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSterile
mushroom lover
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,538
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3861979 - 03/03/05 10:59 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Great posts!!! (all of them) :thumbup: very good info. I am a herbal-freak too, i use them alot, altho i don't know so many things about them.

I suggest you inlcude chamomile in a future post, i ve seen a book specialized on the 150+(!!) healing properties of this magic herb.

You covered  almost every opinion i wanted to post, hehe

Stay organic!  :heart: :heart: :heart:

Thanx for the info ,keep us posted!


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind


"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3864118 - 03/03/05 06:09 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "makes sense". Why would mankind's food have special properties? What's 'The Way'?





_S_omeone whom I love created the Earth in complete perfection. However, He created it with the capacity for both life and death, strength & weakness, health and illness.
>
If you believe in the Creator, as the Native Americans referred to Him, you (must) believe that if sickness and ill-health exist (in various stages) - then health and vitality (in various stages) also exist.
>
You would also have to believe in "living according to our natural design" and "living partially according to the way we were designed to live." One method causes us to Live. The other method causes us to live with health and illness simultaneously.
>
Organic, fresh foods are in one respect Perfect Medicine. They are part of the Way of Life, the predesigned system of human living.

In their natural, untainted state foods are wonderful for us and they keep us alive - literally. Foods provide us with life. Foods are in fact alive, not counting meat.

Different foods give us different things.

Vegetables contain spiritual essences. So do fruits. So do the seeds of fruits & vegetables. Some of these are more "potent" then others. Carrots aid the eyesight, according to scientific reports, while apples cleanse the bloodstream powerfully.

Trees contain spiritual essences and they are in fact alive. Ever hear of a "tree-hugger"? They hug the trees for a reason, although I admit this is a drastic act of love toward Nature. Among herbs, trees are also included. Vines, like Ayahuasca, as well.

Plants contain spirit, each according to their own type, and when eaten by us we assimilate their lifeforce, their essence. Some are extraordinarily powerful to heal thousands of different conditions. Most herbs are plants. There is a method to God's so-called perceived madness. There is a Way to live.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefresh313
journeyman
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: World Spirit]
    #3865904 - 03/04/05 12:30 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"Why would you trust modern medicine which has been around for a mere 150 years at most to know enough to try to synthesize and mimick a chemical perfectly when you can get the real thing which has been dveloped for millions and millions of years."


check out ayurvedic medicine if you are interested in herbal remedies

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3866199 - 03/04/05 01:57 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Many plants are shown to kill other organisms namely bacteria and viruses.

Which plants kill viruses?

Simply because things die at some point does not mean that there is a natural remedy out there for everything.

You seem to have dodged my actual question which was "why would there be a remedy for every single ailment?", and shifted to answering "Do some plants kill bacteria?".

Why would you trust modern medicine which has been around for a mere 150 years at most to know enough to try to synthesize and mimick a chemical perfectly when you can get the real thing which has been dveloped for millions and millions of years.

It has nothing to do with synthesizing chemicals correctly, and everything to do with testing to see if something is actually a cure, or if it is just believed to be cures. There are many ancient medicines which are actually effective, and many which are not at all. What science has offered us is a much more in depth way of testing different medicines to see which are real, and which are snake oil.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3866403 - 03/04/05 02:41 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Which plants kill viruses?





Broadly speaking the group of herbs referred to as Antivirals.These are herbs that kill viruses or render them unable to reproduce.

Specifically, Cat's Claw, Bearberry, Cayenne, Garlic, Clove, Gentian, Sage, Wormwood, Juniper, Thyme, Eucalyptus and a host of other herbs.These herbs are anti-microbial in general in varying degrees.

Quote:

Simply because things die at some point does not mean that there is a natural remedy out there for everything.





Lmao.And it just happens to occur during the beginning stages of useing herbs?Thousands upon thousands who have used antimicrobial herbs and have gotten better shortly after starting the herbs were just all pure coincidence?I think not.


Quote:

You seem to have dodged my actual question which was "why would there be a remedy for every single ailment?",




I thought I covered this.Anyhow, for an ecosystem to be balanced there must be a way to kill things when they become out of check.This includes population,power,etc.When somethign becomes unbalanced something comes along to put it into check.For example,If people were to overpopulate an area,food would run out and disease would run rampant and similar things would occur.This effectively cuts down the population in the area to a sustainable level.

Herbs are the balancing agent to microbes in general.This includes bacteria,viruses,fungi,etc that invade the human body.Now sometimes we cannot fight off these things and we become ill.We then need something to put our body back into balance.Without this we would die off in large numbers and run the risk of extinction in a matter of speaking.Not too long ago even the flu was deadly.Many colonial people and children died from the flu.Herbs changed that.Herbs were used to make teas and various herbal concoctions to fight it and help the body to fight it.Yes the flu does change constantly but the herbs strengthen our bodies and its actions in various helpful ways.Without herbs and medicinal plants there would be no medicine PERIOD.It makes sense that plants would be used to put virus populations into check.


Quote:

It has nothing to do with synthesizing chemicals correctly, and everything to do with testing to see if something is actually a cure, or if it is just believed to be cures.




It has everything to do with synthesizing natural compounds and chemicals correctly.If done even slightly incorrectly it could wreak serious havoc on our delicate chemical and cellular structures.

Many of these herbs have been tested repeatedly.Most herbs that are tested are found to be useful for their claims.However the ones that are tested and claimed false I believe a mistake was made or they had ulterior motives(incorrect dosing seems to be a problem in trials sometimes it seems).Every chemical has a purpose and an action.We dont understand nowhere near what there is to know about these chemicals.We know but a drop in the bucket.What we have learned about medicinal chemicals has been learned from plants and herbs.

Quote:

There are many ancient medicines which are actually effective, and many which are not at all. What science has offered us is a much more in depth way of testing different medicines to see which are real, and which are snake oil.




I have yet to truly find an herb which served no purpose.Some mistakes could have been made in ancient texts or it could ahve simply been an unchecked claim but the majority of texts are very accurate according to my knowledge.I've actually yet to test an herb which didnt live up to its claims.

Some herbs however have very subtle effects which arent noticed unless used in very large doses or for a long period of time.

Modern Science is an infant in the sea of knowledge.It has been around for about 150 years or less.TRaditional Chinese medicine which is often called fake by many westerners has been around for over 4,000 years.I find chinese medicine to be accurate.Traditional Chinese medicine uses purely natural substances to heal and uses mostly herbs.The chinese have a MUCH better record than we do for healing their patients especially in the department of side effects.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3866600 - 03/04/05 04:25 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)


Lmao.And it just happens to occur during the beginning stages of useing herbs?Thousands upon thousands who have used antimicrobial herbs and have gotten better shortly after starting the herbs were just all pure coincidence?I think not.


What about the thousands upon thousands who didn't?

Not too long ago even the flu was deadly.Many colonial people and children died from the flu.Herbs changed that

They did? The herbs that were being used for thousands of years changed that... right around the time modern medicine discovered things like vaccines, washing your hands, etc...?


I have yet to truly find an herb which served no purpose.

What do you mean by test? You mean you took it and thought "Yep, seems like it's working!"? 'Cause that's not an accurate test. You might want to read this: http://skepdic.com/control.html


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3867955 - 03/04/05 01:22 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What about the thousands upon thousands who didn't?


THe vast majority of people get better after using herbs properly.Some cases are too far gone for any medicine.

Quote:

They did? The herbs that were being used for thousands of years changed that... right around the time modern medicine discovered things like vaccines, washing your hands, etc...?





Flu vaccines are quite ineffective.Washing hands began before colonial days.It was in the victorian era that sanitation improved.Modern europeans lost touch with most herbs for some time relying on only a select few mostly used and bought from "pharmacies" in the victorian era where opium and cocaine was in many OTC preparations.

Quote:

What do you mean by test? You mean you took it and thought "Yep, seems like it's working!"? 'Cause that's not an accurate test. You might want to read this




I take the herbs at varying dosages and I analyze the effects and I see if my condition improves or not and if so by howmuch at which dosages.Its not like I have a crack science team,a million dollar lab and tons of funding.Give me a break.

I have more experience with herbs than you period.Much more.I am mopre qualified to say whether or not something works.I have been my own guinea pig for years.As well as speaking to others about it including certified herbalists.Ive read many herbal studies and books.MANY.I know what Im talking about.

And you're attempting to pick apart what Ive said with arguments that dont hold up.Minor things.Try herbs yourself.You're a skeptic so you should have no problem with the placebo effect since you're arent believing in anything.In fact try kava for anxiety or nervousness,insomnia,stress,etc.Its powerful enough that you cant write it off as a placebo effect or any other excuse.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3867996 - 03/04/05 01:34 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think you completely understand my argument.

I know kava probably works because its effects are well documented.

I've had the flu a few times, but never came close to death, same with everyone in my immediate family... yet none of us use herbs.

I have been my own guinea pig for years.

This. Is. Not. A. Scientific. Test.

Read the link I posted, it explains WHY double-blind tests are effective, and why anecdotal evidence is not. It really doesn't matter how experienced you are, there's no possible way of escaping placebo effects, personal biases, or misleading interpretations of cause and effect without a properly controlled study. It doesn't matter how stongly you insist that a single person's test can be accurate, it simply isn't, and there's a good reason that double-blind, controlled studies are the norm in real science.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3868112 - 03/04/05 01:59 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This. Is. Not. A. Scientific. Test.

Read the link I posted, it explains WHY double-blind tests are effective, and why anecdotal evidence is not. It really doesn't matter how experienced you are, there's no possible way of escaping placebo effects, personal biases, or misleading interpretations of cause and effect without a properly controlled study. It doesn't matter how stongly you insist that a single person's test can be accurate, it simply isn't, and there's a good reason that double-blind, controlled studies are the norm in real science.





There are many studies on common herbs.However for reasons I have mentioned before it is impratical and impossible to test ever herb and plant especially long term.

I am only one man and Im not a millionaire so my resources are limited.

By your line of reasoning then we cannot assume anything we experience to be real or valid without scientific confirmation because we may be biased,we may misunderstand or life may just be one big placebo effect.LMAO.Does not food prove a remedy for hunger.Do we really need science to tell us so.Does not tea or coffee produce wakefulness.Surely we do not need science to confirm it.Science is very inefficient.These same people have been saying eggs are good egg are bad then theyre good again and then bad again and now only the yolks are bad.We've jsut covered no yes and maybe to the questions are eggs good for you and are eggs bad for you and still have no clear answers.Same with red meat.Its good then bad then good then bad and now its good in small amounts with the fat trimmed off.Again we now have covered yes no and maybe to the question is red meat good for you and is red meat bad for you.Science has a very bad habit of doing this and science doesnt even understand the human body very much at all let alone the effects of a substance on it.Studies prove somethign effective then another one say no it isnt and then another will come along and say well maybe...

Anyhow Ive repeatedly explained why it is near impossible and very impratical to test every herb and plant that comes along.

Ive also said multiple times that common herbs are well documented and have been tested.Yes in double-blind studies.Shouldnt that be sufficient?

Quote:

I've had the flu a few times, but never came close to death, same with everyone in my immediate family... yet none of us use herbs.





Also yet you are not exposed to colonial and victorian area conditions.You sit in a non drafty 72 degree house with plenty of running water which is clean.Now if you were exposed to 30 to 50 degree temps (maybe 60 at best) plenty of icy cold drafts and no clean running water you would stand a good chance of dying from the flu without herbs too.Sometimes in fact houses were unheated in winter.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3868217 - 03/04/05 02:28 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

By your line of reasoning then we cannot assume anything we experience to be real or valid without scientific confirmation because we may be biased,we may misunderstand or life may just be one big placebo effect.LMAO.Does not food prove a remedy for hunger.Do we really need science to tell us so.Does not tea or coffee produce wakefulness.

Well, there have been hundreds of studies about various foods and caffeine. The effects of food and caffeine have been documented to the point that we've got a pretty solid base of information that's far more evident than a clinical study.

We have lots, and lots of scam medicines out there. Ever been to quackwatch.org?

There are people who claim that psychic surgery works... and there are tons of people who claim it saved their lives to back it up. There are people who make all kinds of claims, and people who have tried these things... and then they are shown to be nothing more than placebo in clinical studies.

These same people have been saying eggs are good egg are bad then theyre good again and then bad again and now only the yolks are bad.We've jsut covered no yes and maybe to the questions are eggs good for you and are eggs bad for you and still have no clear answers.

That's a much more complex issue than you make it out to be. Look at all of the studies about eggs and cholesterol, and you'll get a better idea of why people are flip flopping on the issue. A clinical study isn't actually different from trying it yourself... it's just that it does it a whole bunch of times, and it compares it to people who think they're trying it but aren't. If the people who think they're trying it but aren't get the same effects as those who actually are... then isn't it kind of foolish to think that the herb is actually effective?

Also yet you are not exposed to colonial and victorian area conditions.You sit in a non drafty 72 degree house with plenty of running water which is clean.Now if you were exposed to 30 to 50 degree temps (maybe 60 at best) plenty of icy cold drafts and no clean running water you would stand a good chance of dying from the flu without herbs too.Sometimes in fact houses were unheated in winter.

They had blankets and fire back then, it's really not THAT hard to keep comfortable temperatures and to provide clean water. Also, people were still dying in warm climates as well.

Did you research this one, or just make that up on the spot?

Some herbs have been shown to be effective in double blind studies. Some have been shown to be complete failures, yet they're still sold as cure alls.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3868516 - 03/04/05 03:14 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

We have lots, and lots of scam medicines out there.




I know this very well.Medicines period both herbal and non-herbal and from every part of medicine.Those false claims come from modern people who are just trying to make a dollar at any cost and are dishonest con-men.That has nothing to do with any medicine system.

Quote:

There are people who claim that psychic surgery works... and there are tons of people who claim it saved their lives to back it up. There are people who make all kinds of claims, and people who have tried these things... and then they are shown to be nothing more than placebo in clinical studies.





Psychic Surgery isnt a substance or chemical that is recognized and shown to have an action and effect and/or properties in general.

But I understand where you are coming from.

Quote:

That's a much more complex issue than you make it out to be. Look at all of the studies about eggs and cholesterol, and you'll get a better idea of why people are flip flopping on the issue. A clinical study isn't actually different from trying it yourself... it's just that it does it a whole bunch of times, and it compares it to people who think they're trying it but aren't. If the people who think they're trying it but aren't get the same effects as those who actually are... then isn't it kind of foolish to think that the herb is actually effective?





If people are foolish period it means they are foolish period.If youclaim herbal medicine is crap because of the placebo effect you mus tthen claim that modern medicine is also crap since the placebo effect occurs in modern medicine just as well.Just as I can convince someone they are very ill and if they believe it they will begin to feel ill and often become ill by ctaching something now just becuase that occurs is one to say virus and bacteria are a scam?Herbs tested are often shown to be more effective than the placebo effect.Many useful heart medicines are herbal medicines derived from plants.Some of which were thought to be ineffective at one time or another.I have not known of a case where the effects of an herb were duplicated by a placebo effect by the way except in cases where improper dosing occurs even then the herbs perform slightly better than placebo.

Quote:

They had blankets and fire back then, it's really not THAT hard to keep comfortable temperatures and to provide clean water. Also, people were still dying in warm climates as well.

Did you research this one, or just make that up on the spot?





Its a lot harder than you think.Fires do not heat homes efficiently and it remains much cooler than modern heating methods.ALso its very drafty with the drafts being 50 degrees of less and at night it dips between 30 and 50 degrees when the fire dies out.I should know since I lived on a farm for many years of my youth and it was heated by a wooden stove.(IE a stove that produces heat by burning wood).It was a very old farmhouse.

My posts are based on actual experience and knowledge by the way.

Quote:

Some herbs have been shown to be effective in double blind studies. Some have been shown to be complete failures, yet they're still sold as cure alls.




This is the result of improper doses somewhat and more so exaggerated claims by lairs and con-men.This is not what Im referring to.I am referring to the claims made by ancient texts and by pre-modern books.(IE the 1890's or so on back to 2000 to 3000 BC)I am most definitely not referring to the con-men of today looking for a quick buck nor am I referring to their claims or other silly modern claims.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleninjapixie
newbie
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3870231 - 03/04/05 09:10 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Mullein and coltsfoot are the only herbal medicines I've tried that definately worked. Both are cough dispellers which makes you feel like you applied vicks vapour rub directly to your lungs. Wonderful stuff.

Most other herbal medicines I've tried were more for holistic treatment with no noticeable effects.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3870340 - 03/04/05 09:32 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mullein and coltsfoot are the only herbal medicines I've tried that definately worked. Both are cough dispellers which makes you feel like you applied vicks vapour rub directly to your lungs. Wonderful stuff.





Mullein and Coltsfoot are the best medicinal herbs for the lungs that I know off.Mullein especially is very soothing.Lobelia when used properly is very effective as well.


Quote:

Most other herbal medicines I've tried were more for holistic treatment with no noticeable effects.




I bet they were store-bought supplements in tablets or capsules right?

The "Supplements" in stores contain way too weak of a dose for about 95% of products I see and produce a very mild effect to no noticeable effect to most people.The store bought supplements are also very very low grade material usually.Health stores carry a higher quality slection of herbs like GNC than say a grocery store and pharmacies tend to fall in between.If you're going to work with herbs I sugest buying herbs dried from a reputable herb dealer and get a capsule filling device and pocket/small electronic scale.This is how I work with herbs.I also wildcraft and grow my own herbs as well.Fresh is best but properly dried is a good second.

Many herbs like dandelion and burdock which I see require much larger doses than standard store supplements contain and recommend.Dandelion requires a dose of 9 to 15 grams grams.(slightly more than 1/3 ounce to slightly more than half an ounce daily)Burdock requires 3 to 6 grams daily.Most herbal supplements contain 500 mg(very common) (1/2 a gram) maybe a gram (rarely)at best and they usually recommend one to two capsules a day for these herbs.

Thats not even a 1/4 of the dose required for dandelion.And far from half of a good dose of burdock.Also they cost 7 to 12 dollars a bottle for about 60 to 100 caps while a pound generally runs about 4 to 5 dollars for these herbs.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleninjapixie
newbie
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3870567 - 03/04/05 10:01 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I bet they were store-bought supplements in tablets or capsules right?

No they were the actual herbs, dried and shifted or in powdered form. They may work, but I just didn't use them long enough to notice anything.

The mullein and coltsfoot I used were both dried and shifted from the same place I get all my legal herbs. Had to use coffee filters for the coltsfoot.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3870893 - 03/04/05 11:01 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No they were the actual herbs, dried and shifted or in powdered form. They may work, but I just didn't use them long enough to notice anything.






(nods) I just assumed they were the crapy supplements people buy in stores as usually thats the problem when they dont work.Do you remember what herbs they were offhand?

Quote:

Had to use coffee filters for the coltsfoot.




What do you mean?


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleninjapixie
newbie
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3871021 - 03/04/05 11:30 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Herbs or supplements that did almost nothing; brahmi, ginko, sarsparilla, cats claw, suma, damiana, catnip, mugwort, maca, and a few others that were in a mix with other herbs. I know some of these take a while to work like brahmi but others like damiana were very disappointing.

Others I tried that had some sort of an effect; yerba mate (still take it), ephedra (big effect actually but shit), passionflower (nice), kava (illegal here as supplement so I capsulate the powder) and valarian (shit).

The coffee filters are to filter out the fine hairs when making coltsfoot tea which could otherwise make you worse.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3871094 - 03/04/05 11:42 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Herbs or supplements that did almost nothing; brahmi, ginko, sarsparilla, cats claw, suma, damiana, catnip, mugwort, maca, and a few others that were in a mix with other herbs. I know some of these take a while to work like brahmi but others like damiana were very disappointing.





Hmm.Ive noticed that with myself some herbs work better than others for me.Even if they are similar one will always work better while others say different herbs(different than the ones that work better for me) work better for them.

Quote:

Others I tried that had some sort of an effect; yerba mate (still take it), ephedra (big effect actually but shit), passionflower (nice), kava (illegal here as supplement so I capsulate the powder) and valarian (shit).




(nods) Valerian was awful for me.It did work for my insomnia fairly well but I always got nauseated(due to taste I think).I could still taste it even though they were in capsules.I must have gotten powder on the outside.After puking up valerian once it tasted so awful I dont even want to see it again.Valerian to me, tastes and smells like very very old dirty gym socks and then some.

Quote:

The coffee filters are to filter out the fine hairs when making coltsfoot tea which could otherwise make you worse.




I thought you might have meant for tea but I didnt quite understand at first because I smoke medicinal herbs for the lungs as it makes more sense to me and I love to smoke herbal mixtures semi-occasionally.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3873250 - 03/05/05 02:31 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I know this very well.Medicines period both herbal and non-herbal and from every part of medicine.Those false claims come from modern people who are just trying to make a dollar at any cost and are dishonest con-men.That has nothing to do with any medicine system.

It does to some extent though, the point behind peer-reviewed studies, and having certain standards for these things is to prevent such con-artistry. It might seem like there are lots of problems and stuff with modern medicine, but what you read about in the newspaper represents a tiny fraction of what is actually studied and published. It's because of modern medicine and science that we even know what things like the immune system are, and have an idea of how they work.

Generally when you do see problems with modern medicine, it's not that the medicine has been shown not to work... it's that it's been shown to have additional side effect


Its a lot harder than you think.Fires do not heat homes efficiently and it remains much cooler than modern heating methods.ALso its very drafty with the drafts being 50 degrees of less and at night it dips between 30 and 50 degrees when the fire dies out.I should know since I lived on a farm for many years of my youth and it was heated by a wooden stove.(IE a stove that produces heat by burning wood).It was a very old farmhouse.


Yeah, but why were people dying in warm climates as well?

I am referring to the claims made by ancient texts and by pre-modern books.

Oh, so fraud was invented recently?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3873509 - 03/05/05 03:56 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Generally when you do see problems with modern medicine, it's not that the medicine has been shown not to work... it's that it's been shown to have additional side effect





Many medicines do not work for everyone.I have tried dozens of precription insomnia meds with no results and I had been on a very wide spectrum of anxiety and depression meds and none of them worked either.So it is fair to say that not all modern meds work for everyone.It is also fair to say not all herbs are for everyone but am I to say all modern meds do not work and they are a scam because some of them did not work for me?

As far as side effects genera;;y modern meds have far more.The herbal equivalents tend to be much gentler on the body.Many depression meds cause major liver damage or worsen depression or have severe headaches or other awful side effects.The herbal equivalents do not have these effects.

Ibuprofen is very bad for blood pressure and the stomach.Herbal pain relievers do not have these effects.

Quote:

Yeah, but why were people dying in warm climates as well?




To my knowledge influenza was only a problem in the cold climates/areas.If in wtiner it gets below 40 or 50 degrees the cold becomes a major problem and complication during illness especially during high fever and can cause shock to the body.Even 60 to 70 degrees can be horrible and painful for someone with 102 ro 103 or higher temperature.This is why most people with high fever feel a need to keep covered with a blanket.A slight draft can be painful and a major shock to the body for some.

Quote:

Oh, so fraud was invented recently?




You are just full of negativity eh?lol.Anyhow...of course not but today it is a MUCH larger problem.Today also more people care less about such things and care more about making a buck.In tribal societies they do not have the capitalist drive and do not screw around with healing like americans do.Ancient societies also did not screw around and lie like modern americans do.Healing was a very serious thing then and problems with fraud were few.One can easily spot a fraud usually by their lack of knowledge on a plant or plants.True herbalists and herbal doctors generally do not commit fraud as a whole.Its not a problem among them really.Now the large companies they have much more incentive and tend to do anything for a buck so the problem runs rampant.

Perhaps if you had knowledge of your own you wouldnt have to try to dispel others knowledge of things you have No Experience with and do not really comprehend.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3873562 - 03/05/05 04:08 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Anyone wanna buy a Cherokee Hair Tampon? :grin:


--------------------

Edited by Paradigm (03/05/05 04:29 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3873766 - 03/05/05 05:05 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Many medicines do not work for everyone.I have tried dozens of precription insomnia meds with no results and I had been on a very wide spectrum of anxiety and depression meds and none of them worked either.

However, these meds have been tested and shown to have actual effects. Many herbal meds are completely benign, they simply need to be sold with the claim that they work in order to have people believe it completely.

The reason there are so many herbal meds with few side effects, is because there are so many without any actual side effects at all. Another reason is that actual drugs need to be sold with all kinds of warnings about potential side effects, which sets people up to experience these effects through placebo.



To my knowledge influenza was only a problem in the cold climates/areas.If in wtiner it gets below 40 or 50 degrees the cold becomes a major problem and complication during illness especially during high fever and can cause shock to the body.Even 60 to 70 degrees can be horrible and painful for someone with 102 ro 103 or higher temperature.This is why most people with high fever feel a need to keep covered with a blanket.A slight draft can be painful and a major shock to the body for some.


Sources?

.Anyhow...of course not but today it is a MUCH larger problem.Today also more people care less about such things and care more about making a buck.

Again, sources? This doesn't sound accurate to me AT ALL. I don't see any reason why someone selling herbals would be any more honest than someone selling a tested product. I also don't see why ancient cultures, which were plagued by crime and violence just like our own are, would have any less fraud than we do. This seems like an unfounded assumption to me.

Perhaps if you had knowledge of your own you wouldnt have to try to dispel others knowledge of things you have No Experience with and do not really comprehend.

I do have knowledge. I've spent lots of time reading about quack medicine, gotten in similar debates, and seen friends and family get taken in by scams.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3873787 - 03/05/05 05:10 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: Phluck]
    #3874395 - 03/05/05 07:32 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Also, saying herbal meds don't necessarily have dangerous side effects isn't exactly true




Im not saying they cant have dangerous side effects but they are MUCH MUCH more rare with herbs and usually involve mixing herbs with meds that they shouldnt have or taking way too much or a similar human error.Occasionally it is due to additives added by companies and not knowing what theyre doing really.

Links = 5 out of 6 being from valley skeptic.Shall we look at the definition of skeptic...one who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.In short one who goes against what is known or accepted to be true habitually.That means regardless of anything they have their own personal agenda and motives for denying things.Not that they actually have a valid basis for their claims.Skeptics could have a comet nail them in the head and they'd still deny the existence of comets.LMAO.The second they think they found something to back them up no matter how absurd it is they spread it like gospel.

Link 1: Alright.Lets see.No dosage information.No telling how long she took it for.No mention of medications shes on to see it it was a drug interaction.No last name.No anything that could be used to assess the situation at all.Not to mention the site looks like a 2nd grader wrote it html wise.Not to mention he claimed it could kill you.LMAO.There is not one death associated with St. John's wort to date that I know of.I dont even know if this person is a real person.I cannot accept that as valid as anything what-so-ever.All we have is some person who have no details claiming St john's wort can kill you.Its a major exaggeration IMO.No medical names backing up anything either.One woman making an absurd claim.You honestly want me to make it valid.How do I know the side effects arent imagined?If you say my tests arent valid enough to say they work than how is one womans word who has no herbal knowledge mind you going to be valid?I or anyone else could make anything absurd claim about anything.Thats why drugs get a bad name.One person say something completely off base and its spread like gospel.LInk one is very invalid.

Link 2: Hmm A) Animal results dont equate to human results.Things tend to affect us differently than animals.This is why human tests are required. B) Any numbner of chemicals,herbs,prescription drugs and a number of things we clean with and eat can produce similar results.Too little info also.Very invalid. Also I qutoe from the article..."These findings may or may not have specific relevance for
humans."... I rest my case.And the world may end tomorrow... :rolleyes:

Link 3: Dynamic Page Generation Error: Undefined variable:$sourceid  I cant access it.

Link 4:
Quote:

More than 180 deaths have been linked to dietary supplements in the past few years, according to an FDA tracking system that lists voluntarily reported incidents only.





As opposed to well over 100,000 cases of prescription drug caused deaths
Quote:

every year.


Now those approx 60 deaths a year (many which are known to be from overdose and others due to allergy/drug interactions) are tiny in comparison to prescription drugs which over a few year period caused more than 300,000 deaths.Also ephedra is responsible for alot of those herbal statistics because overweight or otherwise unhealthy people went against the directions and consumed much more than recommended.The same thing will happen if you consume too much caffeine or any other stimulant.Ephedra's strength however makes it easier for the unknowledgeable to have ill effects.People assume it is like caffeine.

Quote:

Lashof and other scientists are particularly concerned about so- called ``bad boy botanicals,'' a broad group that includes ephedra, chaparral and a concoction known as dieter's tea.






Yes these are quite strong herbs and any knowledgeable herbalist will know not to abuse these herbs.People should know what theyre consuming and know how to use it.I mean you dont just pick up a bottle of tylenol and start eating it like food or candy and use it freely against the advice given on the package so why do it with herbal medicines?Common sense is a good thing to have.

Link 5: Echinacea is closely related to ragweed.A plant known for causing major allergic reactions.And 24 cases out of how many thousands of users?I find a higher percentage of allergic reactions among those who take precription meds.The article says it MAY cause allergic reactions which MAY be fatal.And I could walk outside and died from a bee sting suddenly without prior allergy to be stings.Lets look at the big picture.More people die from alcohol,drugs,precription meds,bee stings,flu,cancer,car accidents,allergies to food,etc or most any single source.Anyone could die from eating a wheat product by developing a sudden severe allergy.Things like this occur every year.Herbs are mostly harmless.They are safer than any other singular activity including driving to work.

Quote:

?People with allergies or asthma should be cautious with echinacea,
particularly if they are allergic to grass pollen,? he said. People with
hay fever who react to ragweed or other grass pollens may be more likely to
also react to echinacea, he explained.






Just as people allergic to bee stings could die fron ingesting honey or bee pollen and should be cautious.

Quote:

Nonetheless, echinacea is taken regularly by millions of Australians,
Americans and Europeans, he noted.






Millions of australians take it and only 24 MAY be prone to severe allergy.And let me say that ANY substance which is closely related to an allergy that you have MAY cause severe allergy and complications.This is not just herbs but meds,drugs,plants,food,etc
Invalid argument.24 people out of millions is a far better safety record than any meds or anything else.More people than that definitely die (not justmay) from consuming too much water every year or getting too much sun every year.BTW Id like to note that the natural form of herbs are never the culprit it always seems to be commercially altered and produced products and additives added to those products such as sulphur which causes many people a moderate to severe allergic reaction.

Link 6: ROFLMAO This proves you have little to no herbal or chemical knowledge GHB is NOT an herb nor natural occuring compound.It is a synthetic drug.Created much in the manner precription drugs are made.There is nothing natural about GHB.It has no bearing on herbal meds.And the fact that is caused hundreds of deaths a year versus about 60 or so from herbs (most of which being ephedra or similarly strong stimulants that are abused) shows that herbs are safer than even OTC man-made supplements.OTC supplements do not equate to herbs or natural products.

In short none of it shows that herbs are bad or harmful but rather that one may have an allergy to it or one may have some sort of interactiom but none of that is the herbs fault nor does it make herbs dangerous.You only served to strengthen my debate.

GHB info


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Edited by UnenlightenedOne (03/05/05 07:42 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEarthAngel
Tripper

Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 67
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3880349 - 03/06/05 10:05 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Too all the people who have NOTICED little or no affect after taking supplements, means you obviously didnt need it,were you tested to see if you did, or did you self prescribe yourself?
We find that alot of people dont notice a change in themselves until they stop taking the supplements.
And RE the first post with the info, although most of the herbs/vitamins mentiond have few contraindications, i never reccomend anybody self prescribe themself something, just because it worked for their friend or their neighbour!!!
Everybody is uniquie, everybody has different frequencies, intollerences, blood pressure, blood sugar levels, dis-ease's etc.. all information that one "prescribing" must take on board.
The safest way to test yourself to see if your body even needs anything, is to learn the simple art of keneisiology and muscle test yourself.
I stand my ground strongly when saying I would much rather lay in the garden and die instead of go to hospital to get pumped full of the ludicrous untested horrible side effecting drugs.
And even though it sounds like you know ur stuff Unelightened one, i found your arguement of the "I bet they were store-bought supplements in tablets or capsules right?" to be unethical.Sorry, but thats my industry and in this country there is not many grow ya own fixme uptea goin on in our backyards, maybe where ever you are you have stronger regulations on what they are allowed to sell?, Basically, we have a range of strengths according to each individuals needs.
Anyway hppy debating:)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: EarthAngel]
    #3881040 - 03/07/05 12:54 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And even though it sounds like you know ur stuff Unelightened one, i found your arguement of the "I bet they were store-bought supplements in tablets or capsules right?" to be unethical.Sorry, but thats my industry and in this country there is not many grow ya own fixme uptea goin on in our backyards, maybe where ever you are you have stronger regulations on what they are allowed to sell?, Basically, we have a range of strengths according to each individuals needs.





What I said wasnt unethical.It is a simple fact that the vast majority of store bought supplements contain low-grade herbs at doses at a small fraction of the average effective dose.It is simply not enough for anyone to receive benefits.I did see a few supplements that had decent quality herbs at decent doses but out of an entire shelving section out of several dozen different herbs I saw 3 supplements that where at a decent dosage.I sampled some of those and found them to be of only decent quality.Not the greatest but not the worst either.

As for my herbal knowledge, I have many years of survival and wildcrafting training as well as having studied herbs for many years.Ive read dozens and dozens of books,articles,etc.Ive taken numerous classes on herbs and I am also a herbal/plant alchemist.And when I have the time and money I am planning on getting trained and certified as a master herbalist.I have also spoken to and learned much from local herbalists.Both western and traditional chinese herbal medicine.Needless to say I have a lot of experience with herbs.I really do know what Im talking about and I think that what I said was a fair statement and that people should know if something is not up to par.Its not fair to people to pay over-inflated prices for a product and have it not even work or even have a chance of working.

Quote:

Everybody is uniquie, everybody has different frequencies, intollerences, blood pressure, blood sugar levels, dis-ease's etc.. all information that one "prescribing" must take on board.





I understand this very well.

Quote:

i never reccomend anybody self prescribe themself something, just because it worked for their friend or their neighbour!!!





I agree with this.I can self prescribe myself without problem but only because of the vast experience I have with herbs and my knowledge of herbs.This is likely why I never run into problems with herbs.

Quote:

The safest way to test yourself to see if your body even needs anything, is to learn the simple art of keneisiology and muscle test yourself.





A good working knowledge of nutrition helps to recognize and correct nutritional deficiencies and determine true illness from deficiency.A good working knowledge of acupressure is also very helpful.Accupressure therapy combined with herbal medicine produces much better effects than herbal medicine alone.They work together synergistically.Knowing accupressure will also help diagnose problems.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEarthAngel
Tripper

Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 67
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3883702 - 03/07/05 05:34 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry i wasnt getting at you with most of that, i just got my back up without need , as im usually having to defend all natural products against the world! Sorry for laying my bad day on the table.
And may i ask how u use accupressure to diagonse problems? I use accupressure daily and understand it all, but not sure how you are using it to diagnose I'd be really interested in knowing :smile:
And the other stuff about self prescribing was not against you, i beleive that you're very clued up in these areas, i was just warning the people who may read that information & think they need things, when they dont :smile:
Peace

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Herbal Medicine and Natural Remedies [Re: EarthAngel]
    #3884592 - 03/07/05 08:57 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry i wasnt getting at you with most of that, i just got my back up without need , as im usually having to defend all natural products against the world! Sorry for laying my bad day on the table.





No problem.We all have bad days sometimes. :grin:

Quote:

And may i ask how u use accupressure to diagonse problems? I use accupressure daily and understand it all, but not sure how you are using it to diagnose I'd be really interested in knowing





The basic explanation of how diagnosing with acupressure works: Acupressurists "read" problems with the body via pressure points in the arms.They "read" the energy flow in the meridians at these points.Each pulse has two phases.The first being the superficial and the second phase being deep.If one finds the pulse to be absent in the superficial phase it usually signifies a problem in that meridian and its corresponding organs/parts of the body.These imbalances manifest in illness/disease in the corresponding parts of the body.By correcting the imbalances it then takes care of the problem at its root rather than only treating the symptoms with medication like modern medicine.

The pulses are read by "listening" to the patterns in the energy.It can be fast,slow,spurting,writhing,missed "beats" etc.These patterns correspond to various imbalances and diseases/illnesses.Face reading is also effective when used with acupressure.Bags under the eyes,oily skin,acne,yellow tint to the eyes,etc correspond to various illnesses/imbalances.For example a yellow tint to the yes indicates a liver problem and bags under the eyes indicate a kidney problem.

Pulse reading and face reading requires A LOT of reading and studying and maybe some courses/classes.It is as complicated as any other medical system but one can learn easier than most other medical systems IMO.


Quote:

And the other stuff about self prescribing was not against you, i beleive that you're very clued up in these areas, i was just warning the people who may read that information & think they need things, when they dont





(nods) I wasnt sure whom you meant so I commented on it anyway.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Polypropylene Grow Bags   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Capsules   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Natural remedies for the runs? Kinda gross post blacksabbathrulz 807 4 01/22/05 02:34 AM
by canid
* Herbal Combinations for Health and Healing
( 1 2 all )
ShroomismM 9,022 24 09/30/14 08:08 PM
by foodsgoodtoo
* Improve your mental well-being the natural way
( 1 2 3 all )
ShroomismM 8,014 40 12/01/04 11:06 AM
by Jalruza
* Alternative medicine and depression
( 1 2 all )
OJK 4,544 27 09/08/05 05:06 PM
by dblaney
* Tension Headaches: Remedies? Randolph_Carter 1,334 12 11/09/04 04:16 PM
by browndustin
* Learning to use weed as a medicine --edit: eh, the hell with it
( 1 2 all )
MOTH 3,986 28 06/03/05 10:03 AM
by MOTH
* Herbal Healing and my life xTRIPPSTERx 831 3 12/24/05 08:27 PM
by PDU
* Homeopathic Remedies: Starting with Bach Flower Essences World Spirit 813 5 09/11/05 05:27 PM
by Locus

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: CherryBom, Rose, mndfreeze, yogabunny, feevers, CookieCrumbs, Northerner
7,012 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.039 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.