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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Why do you think Kerry lost?
    #3846382 - 02/28/05 11:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think it happened because Bush pandered to blacks and Christians by bashing gay marriage somewhat. I also think that the "flip-flopper" attacks on Kerry by the Bush administration did sway some people.

And while it appears that Bush fucked up in Iraq, he had more of a plan and steadfastness than Kerry did.

When it came to Iraq the whole topic was pretty simple. We were in Iraq. Saddam had been deposed. The Iraqi's did not have a stable government anymore. America could do two different things:

1. We could leave and Iraq would descend into an even bigger bloodbath than it already was.

2. We could stay and try to build up a stable and prosperous Iraq.

Of course, nobody thinks we should do #1. Everybody thinks we should do #2. I think we should do #2 as well.

Kerry kind of alluded to maybe doing #2. He then mentioned that our allies would come to help us. BULLSHIT! The French and Germans didn't like the Iraq war. They don't like the Iraq occupation. They will never send a single troop to help us. No country is coming into Iraq to help us. They are only leaving. When Kerry made this suggestion he was either lying or engaging in wishful thinking.

If anybody is going to make #2 happen, it will be America and America alone. This means than more innocent Iraqi's will die and more American troops will die. This is the blunt reality in which we find ourselves.

I wanted to scream at both Bush and Kerry when the topic of Iraq came up. I wanted to yell at Bush, "The intelligence community under you fucked up and you fucked up. A lot of people have died because of you. Stop giving simplistic and canned answers. Stop sidestepping the questions and the issues. Tell us the truth". I wanted to yell at Kerry, "You're an idiot that has absolutely no plan for Iraq. The possible plans that you have mentioned will never come to fruition". Oh well....what are you gonna do....

It sure is great having only two real choices during election time.

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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3846406 - 02/28/05 11:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

because the sheeple of america have bought the bush story hook
line and sinker.

praise jesus.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3846450 - 02/28/05 11:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kerry was a joke, the American people saw through him. His only reason for running was on a "anyone but bush" agenda. The problem is is that he would say ANYTHING to make Bush look bad without giving actual ideas of how to solve problems. I'm convinced that all you need to do to be a liberal candidate is say that you will do something about (insert popular issue, health care, education etc.)and you will get almost half the votes with absolutely no plan whatsoever....God, it must be easy to live in a world with no ideas of how to solve problems.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3846490 - 02/28/05 12:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In the end, I don't think Iraq had all that much to do with it.
I mean, as you point out, both candidates missed opportunities to capitalize on the situation over there... but they were both in difficult positions. I'll never forgive Bush for invading Iraq, but he must have known that deviating from those bullshit canned answers would have cost him a lot of ignorant votes. So strategically, it's hard to fault him there. His whole campaign was based on the idea that he was infallible.

Kerry on the other hand... It just took him way too long to develop his identity (or any identity). Just a shit choice for a presidential candidate. He was made to be a boring senator. Democrats in Iowa and New Hampshire should have smart enough to think back four years and not push for someone who had the same identity issues Al Gore went through. But in their defence, they really didn't have a good crop to pick from... Poll after poll after poll showed the same results: people weren't thrilled with Bush, but they had no idea what Kerry stood for. Kerry's campaign should have been smart enough to realize this in early 2004 and should have made it their top priority. Getting a clear message out. The slippery Karl Rove was smart enough to capitalize on this and soon had Bush using the term 'flip flopper' three times in every speech. And the election ended right there. And the swift boat thing too.

As for the candiadtes' actual platforms... those don't really seem to matter these days. So I'm sure both sides did a fine job there.

IMO, that was the 04 election in a nutshell.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Gijith]
    #3846542 - 02/28/05 12:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


As for the candiadtes' actual platforms... those don't really seem to matter these days.

Sad but true.

By the way, thanks for the 5 rating.  I will now proceed to give you a 5 rating.  If there was an ass-kissing smiley, I would insert it into the post right here.  :smirk:

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3846593 - 02/28/05 12:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

there is.. :kiss: :ass:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Gijith]
    #3846602 - 02/28/05 12:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

As I was rating you, I found this quote from you from another thread.


My parents walked in on me several times during high school.

There was this one time...
My grandmother had died and we were staying in Manhattan, at her apartment, while we made funeral arrangements. And one night, my mom came walked into her mom's old bedroom and found me jacking off in my dead grandmother's bed.

Probably the most shameful moment in my life."


:rotfl:

I hope you can laugh about that now.

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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3846906 - 02/28/05 01:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kerry lost because he wasn't conservative enough.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3846929 - 02/28/05 01:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kerry also allied himself with some extreme Left people and groups. While the extreme Left is prevalent in the media and certain segments of society, there is enough of a conserative base in this country that he ended up alienating a lot of people.

Kerry picked the wrong allies, friends, and people to be seen with.

Edited by RandalFlagg (02/28/05 02:47 PM)

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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3847163 - 02/28/05 02:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

That's too bad for the libertines.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3847452 - 02/28/05 03:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

the answer to the title ? becomes painfully clear after briefly canvassing the AOL message boards..and also from ann coulters' obscenely large audience...and kerry was no top-notch campaigner either...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
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Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3847634 - 02/28/05 04:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

(in my best bush impression)

Da electrik' vote.



No seriously tho, Kerry lost because bush out campaigned him, it had nothing to do with "America seeing right through him" as Invertigo said. Because most of america(especially the redneck idiots that won bush the election) are not that smart. Now Bush ran a better campaign, and in our world of commercials and advertising bush simply did a better job. Kind of a scary thought isnt it? that the country's future was decided by the packaging and not the content. sad but true

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinemxdrk
searching forsomething
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Registered: 07/19/04
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: blaze2]
    #3847962 - 02/28/05 05:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think it is partially that Americans are convinced that if you don't vote Rep or Dem that you are throwing your votes away. We fail to realize that if we vote whatever party we feel closest too then the Republican or Democratic party will not always win. Also it could be that Bush appealed to conservative America and out campaigned Kerry. And if maybe 90% of population voted there may have been a difference.

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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3847995 - 02/28/05 05:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I find it funny that the most common answer is something along the lines of "because people are stupid" or "because they bought into the lies" or "it was all the campaigning and commercials...brainwashing, man"

The irony is that this is the attitude that lost the election. The dems all had this attitude like they simply deserved to be in power and they had no need to explain their plan for presidency...because anyone who didn't vote for them was just a stupid redneck who doesn't deserve any input.

Blacks came out in record numbers for Bush simply because they are sick of being used as examples of failure.

I will also give all you out-of-touch dems another tip. "Values" had nothing to do with christian extremism as the dems are so fond of pushing. It was all about the flip-flopping and pandering. Example: The dems thought SS reform was a good idea when Clinton talked about it, now it is their political "hill to die on". Its all about politics to them and not about what they think is right. Its all about political games and people don't like that..but hey, don't listen to me, just keep listening to the dems excuses and calling people stupid and keep the republicans in power through 2012.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Catalysis]
    #3848004 - 02/28/05 05:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The Democrats are in serious trouble. They complain, are not proactive, and offer no solutions to any problems. That is why they have no political momentum right now.

Edited by RandalFlagg (02/28/05 05:31 PM)

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 2 days
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3848046 - 02/28/05 05:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

IMO it was over after the "Reporting For Duty Salute"


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3848078 - 02/28/05 05:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


IMO it was over after the "Reporting For Duty Salute"

Yep....

Don't play up being a war hero when you came home and decried your fellow servicemen for being war criminals.

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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3848110 - 02/28/05 05:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly. I try to tell people why the party is floundering because I think we need at least 2 strong parties, if not more, and I would like the opportunity to vote democrat someday...but then they just call me a sheep and a stupid red-neck for questioning their "superior" political strategies. I would hate to see this simple stubborn attitude become the downfall of a much needed liberal party in the US.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Catalysis]
    #3848461 - 02/28/05 06:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kerry lost because he was a gold plated phony, in spades, with sprinkles on top.
Gijith: I like you but if you still can't see that you were wrong on Iraq you are pretty much hopeless.
Randall: Kerry's refusal to release his records was very damaging and he still hasn't done it, in spite of his vow on national radio (Imus) to do so soon. This makes most people who think wonder about what he has to hide.
Both candidates were on the same side on gay marriage. Don't forget, it was the decision of a liberal Mass judge that even made this an issue.
It is utterly ridiculous to assume that every attack on Kerry originated in the Bush administration. I am not a member of the Bush administration and I very much wanted to see his reelection. I am much smarter than almost all of you and I very much resent being told that only idiots support Bush. How stupid do we look now? What with Afghanistan elections, Iraq elections, Libya capitulation, Syria retreat, Egypt going multi-party and actual hope (crossed fingers) that humans lead in the PA?


A Northeastern liberal will never, NEVER, be president. Notice how the Hildabeast is trying to position herself, boys and girls, and learn from your mistress.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 2 days
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Catalysis]
    #3848494 - 02/28/05 06:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

why do we need two strong parties? IMO its almost like two similar gangs. and the Democrats being the worst gang.

if the democrats split-up (implode) and we end up with 3 or 4 strong parties, would we have to stop the electoral college. i am for states rights and would not want to see the electoral college go.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (02/28/05 07:00 PM)

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3848557 - 02/28/05 06:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


A Northeastern liberal will never, NEVER, be president.

What about Kennedy?


Notice how the Hildabeast is trying to position herself, boys and girls, and learn from your mistress.

That is a DISASTER in the making if she runs. She CANNOT win. She will never win. It doesn't matter how much she tries to change her image. She will lose if she is the Democratic nominee. The Republicans must be rubbing their hands together with glee at the thought of Hillary running.

McCain would absolutely slaughter her in an election.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3848620 - 02/28/05 07:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Do you mean JFK? He wasn't so liberal. See Cuban missile crisis and Bay of Pigs and U2 incident and Vietnam (the bastard). Do you mean RFK? Very strong attorney general who I credit more than J Edgar with the beginning of the end for the Mafia. Or do you mean Teddy, Dukakis, Kerry? Let's see, who did the Dems manage to get elected? A peanut farmer physicist after Nixon/Ford (toughie there) and Clinton, barely, and not without Perot. I think we can beat Hilary, but, and this is mean, she seems to be the CLEAR front runner. Oh what a brave new world when the fools are actually routed and a real opposition (Libertarian) can arise. But first, the libs must be routed fully.


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3848630 - 02/28/05 07:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
why do we need two strong parties? IMO its almost like two similar gangs. and the Democrats being the worst gang.

if the democrats split-up (implode) and we end up with 3 or 4 strong parties, would we have to stop the electoral college. i am for states rights and would not want to see the electoral college go.




Yeah that is a good point. If the dems split up, the most out-of-the-mainstream groups will fail while we may get 2-3 good parties from it. The only problem is the vacuum of any good opposition party that it is creating while the dems are all in denial.

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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3848740 - 02/28/05 07:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

zappa, did you vote for Bush? I can't remember. And yeah, I doubt another liberal new englander will ever sit in the oval office. It's amazing how much a nation can change in 40 years.

lonestar, the other day, I was thinking about how this will all play out during the next 50 years or so. Part of me thinks the democratic party will have enough sense to become more fiscally conservative. Socialism will never work in America. I have no real problem with it, but it just can't be successfully done here. And the democrats have millions of votes to gain by abandoning its more socialist tendencies. However, I think a move like that could easily split the party in half. For the foreseeable future, this country will have to have a major that prides itself on welfare and public health programs. There are just too many votes out there to gobble up with these issues. So it's a conundrum... Republicans... they'll just be republicans. Seems to be working for them. They may begin to distance themselves from Jesus, allowing for faster spread into social leftism (even if they didn't, religion would eventually get there), but I doubt it.... So, do the democrats move to the fiscal right, leaving the green party to pick up the socialist votes? I doubt it. America's not going to have two major liberal parties. Will the republicans move to the social left and leave the born agains to vote for... actually, who the fuck would they vote for? Alright, maybe that will happen... Will the libertarian party breakthrough? Not if they keep hawking that ridiculous liberty dollar.

I'm guessing shit will just stay as it is. Republicans will be in office most of the time. Occasionally, the democrats will come up with a charismatic candidate and win some elections. No third party coup. No real progress. Same old bullshit.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3848857 - 02/28/05 07:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I am much smarter than almost all of you



Apparently quite humble, too. :smirk:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Gijith]
    #3848876 - 02/28/05 07:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Gij, JFK was NOT a liberal even though he was a Democrat. My hope is not that the Dems will split but that they will disappear into utter irrelevance and a Libertarian opposition will arise from within the Republican party. I think it's gonna happen. At my age I don't think I'll see it but you might and I will be happy for you and my daughter


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3849133 - 02/28/05 08:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that there are many people in this country who are ripe to be coaxed over to the Libertarian Party. I don't agree with everything the party says (especially their immigration stance), but they are the closest to my own thinking. If only the Libertarians could reach out and convince some people.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3850039 - 03/01/05 12:22 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kerry lost because nothing he said could be trusted.

Bush? Well, maybe not there too much either..

difference is, Bush's stance on an issue is Bush's stance on an issue.

"As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, I firmly believe that the issue of Iraq is not about politics. It's about national security. We know that for at least 20 years, Saddam Hussein has obsessively sought weapons of mass destruction through every means available. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons today. He has used them in the past, and he is doing everything he can to build more. Each day he inches closer to his longtime goal of nuclear capability -- a capability that could be less than a year away.

The path of confronting Saddam is full of hazards. But the path of inaction is far more dangerous. This week, a week where we remember the sacrifice of thousands of innocent Americans made on 9-11, the choice could not be starker. Had we known that such attacks were imminent, we surely would have used every means at our disposal to prevent them and take out the plotters. We cannot wait for such a terrible event -- or, if weapons of mass destruction are used, one far worse -- to address the clear and present danger posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq."

Senator John Edwards (Democrat, North Carolina)
US Senate floor statement: "Iraqi Dictator Must Go"
September 12, 2002


"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members...

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

Senator Hillary Clinton (Democrat, New York)
Addressing the US Senate
October 10, 2002


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3851311 - 03/01/05 10:04 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kerry lost b/c he had absolutely no presonality. Most people will vote for a strong, charismatic leader; and it was quite obvious that Kerry had no stance on anything of importance. I would say the only thing he did take a stance on was the fact that he was not Bush.

The Democrats are in a lot of trouble, now. If Kerry was the best they could put out there, they're gonna have some problems in the future.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Redstorm]
    #3851357 - 03/01/05 10:15 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, they always have Hillary "huge calves" Clinton. If you ever needed a motivator for the right to vote, it would be that beast of a bitch.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3851706 - 03/01/05 11:42 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kerry lost because he was supposed to lose.

A better question might be: how is it that the majority of America is actually putting up with Bush & co stealing both previous elections?

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3852392 - 03/01/05 02:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Bush won because of the success in the War on Terror.


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Tastes just like chicken

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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3855140 - 03/01/05 11:59 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kerry lost because pretty much everything he said was bullshit. Bush might have been wrong about alot of things, but Kerry was totally ridiculous. Plus, political stances based on NOTHINg but binary opposition to somebody else tend to get absurd and the public doesn't buy it.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3856390 - 03/02/05 09:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Essentially Bush needed Kerry to make him look 'good'.. things might have actually got interesting if the corporate scumbags decided to allow either of the third party candidates participate in the debates.

There will be no more elections in America, only spectacles.

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3856414 - 03/02/05 09:09 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I was amazed that the Democrats nominated someone as utterly uninspiring as Kerry... but then four years earlier I wondered why the Republicans had nominated such an empty headed dolt as Bush.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - HL Mencken


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3856706 - 03/02/05 10:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

To be fair to the Dems, which of their nine potential candidates would have been more inspiring? I've been following American presidential campaigns since 1972 and I'd be hard pressed to point to a time when there was a bigger collection of doofuses than last year. Lieberman was the only one who wasn't an embarassment to the party, and he's hardly what one would normally classify as "inspiring", much less "charismatic".


Phred


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Phred]
    #3856798 - 03/02/05 10:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
To be fair to the Dems, which of their nine potential candidates would have been more inspiring?



More inspiring than Kerry? That's a pretty low bar... Dean was probably better, but he didn't play along with the establishment rules and had to be put down. He did after all, contend that gun control was a states' rights issue and his biggest faux paus was coming out against large media conglomerates.

Please don't misinterpret my remarks as being an endorsement of any candidate. My take on the past election is that we had a choice between a franchise selling turd sandwiches and a franchise selling turd smoothies. I think both groups of peddlers should be shut down in the interest of political health.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3863808 - 03/03/05 05:07 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Gij, JFK was NOT a liberal even though he was a Democrat. My hope is not that the Dems will split but that they will disappear into utter irrelevance and a Libertarian opposition will arise from within the Republican party. I think it's gonna happen. At my age I don't think I'll see it but you might and I will be happy for you and my daughter




Kerry lost mostly because of several things, changing leader mid-war is hard to do, bush pulled the religious anti-gay anti-abortion vote, among many other things. America likes their cowboys too.. i dunno there's alot of reasons.

As to future parties, i think the country would best be served by a duality of Greens and Libertarians, rather than Libertarians and Republicans, but that's me.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Registered: 02/06/05
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3863837 - 03/03/05 05:13 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Electoral College maybe and how it's setup? Just a thought  :smirk:.

http://www.2facts.com/ICOF/temp/69250tempi0502790.asp

Check out the picture if you check out anything. The picture shows the relative distribution of electoral votes, that in addition with payoffs, promises, etc... anything can be guranteed under such a system that doesn't directly give the people the "direct right" to establish who their leader is.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3863864 - 03/03/05 05:17 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Electoral College maybe and how it's setup? Just a thought  :smirk:.

http://www.2facts.com/ICOF/temp/69250tempi0502790.asp




Ugh.... Bush also won the popular vote.......


Kerry lost because a big fat douche is worse than a turd sandwich.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Posts: 3,546
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3863903 - 03/03/05 05:27 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Electoral College maybe and how it's setup? Just a thought  :smirk:.

http://www.2facts.com/ICOF/temp/69250tempi0502790.asp




Ugh.... Bush also won the popular vote.......


Kerry lost because a big fat douche is worse than a turd sandwich.




Perhaps if the system were setup in a different manner which made votes actually count... more people would vote. Dunno, If your happy having the illusion of control that you determine who your leader is, then by all means: stay happy.

BTW, very constructive, and insightful remarks.  :tongue:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3864178 - 03/03/05 06:20 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

DigitalDuality said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Gij, JFK was NOT a liberal even though he was a Democrat. My hope is not that the Dems will split but that they will disappear into utter irrelevance and a Libertarian opposition will arise from within the Republican party. I think it's gonna happen. At my age I don't think I'll see it but you might and I will be happy for you and my daughter




Kerry lost mostly because of several things, changing leader mid-war is hard to do, bush pulled the religious anti-gay anti-abortion vote, among many other things. America likes their cowboys too.. i dunno there's alot of reasons.

As to future parties, i think the country would best be served by a duality of Greens and Libertarians, rather than Libertarians and Republicans, but that's me.




I think the mid war thing is way overplayed. Truman started Korea and didn't run in 52. Johnson seriously ramped up Vietnam and didn't run in '68. Nixon ran in '72 against a fucking nut log on a platform that he would also end the war. Republicans have always owned the anti-gay/anti-abortion votes. No, I think it was Qerry's utterly transparent dishonesty. People could tell that he was a brahmin cunt who just wanted the next feather. Total phony.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3864276 - 03/03/05 06:38 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Perhaps if the system were setup in a different manner which made votes actually count... more people would vote. Dunno, If your happy having the illusion of control that you determine who your leader is, then by all means: stay happy.

BTW, very constructive, and insightful remarks.  :tongue:




First of all, you have read way to far into my post. Secondly, i guess you don't watch South Park as my insightful remark was a joke.

Also, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR NOT VOTING. Considering no American elections have come down to a one vote difference; which ever election system we use there will be no real significance of whether one specific person votes or not. 

Also your argument is a complete joke. Observe: In this election system votes don't count so people don't vote. Because these people don't vote Kerry loses.

As you claim if more people voted Kerry would have won, so it seems as though their votes did count (specially considering the small margins in some key areas). Seems stupid to me.

And just to clarify i would prefer some sort of system incorporating runoff elections. After all I consider myself a libertarian and i support them in their political endeavors.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3864429 - 03/03/05 07:02 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Perhaps if the system were setup in a different manner which made votes actually count... more people would vote. Dunno, If your happy having the illusion of control that you determine who your leader is, then by all means: stay happy.

BTW, very constructive, and insightful remarks.  :tongue:




First of all, you have read way to far into my post. Secondly, i guess you don't watch South Park as my insightful remark was a joke.

Also, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR NOT VOTING. Considering no American elections have come down to a one vote difference; which ever election system we use there will be no real significance of whether one specific person votes or not. 

Also your argument is a complete joke. Observe: In this election system votes don't count so people don't vote. Because these people don't vote Kerry loses.

As you claim if more people voted Kerry would have won, so it seems as though their votes did count (specially considering the small margins in some key areas). Seems stupid to me.

And just to clarify i would prefer some sort of system incorporating runoff elections. After all I consider myself a libertarian and i support them in their political endeavors.




Read the whole entire article then talk to me when your more "schooled". Until then, a person's vote is relatively meaningless in the confines of the present system. Elections for the president are determined by the electoral college, regardless of what the voter margin is in certain states, the votes are guranteed by the party representatives affiliated with the respective states that hold the law.

Which having knowledge of that law, allows those that actually do campaign to promote their election in key areas and utilize the flawed election system as they see fit. Sorry, thought this was a democracy... it was designed to be, as far as the election system goes, doesn't seem all that democratic to me. I'm from California, and yes, essentially the vote is already determined... which gives me every excuse not to vote one way or the other.

The system has been a flawed system for a long time.... Else why would they have tried to change it, and propose a change for it well over 700 times? More to the point... It served it's purpose in the day and age it was designed for, we're much more organized, and literally could if we wanted to as a society come up with a system to account for every vote if necessary, instead of giving a false sense of "comfort" that: "You, as a citizen of the USA directly affected who leads your country", and all the other spurious "vote or die" campaigns :lol:

Please, enlighten me  :smirk:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 07:16 PM)

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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3864553 - 03/03/05 07:22 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:Also, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR NOT VOTING.




Why bother voting if you already know the election is rigged?

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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3864573 - 03/03/05 07:25 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3864574 - 03/03/05 07:26 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Read the whole entire article then talk to me when your more "schooled". Until then, a person's vote is relatively meaningless in the confines of the present system. Elections for the president are determined by the electoral college, regardless of what the voter margin is in certain states, the votes are guranteed by the party representatives affiliated with the respective states that hold the law.

Which having knowledge of that law, allows those that actually do campaing to promote their election in key areas and utilize the flawed election system as they see fit. Sorry, thought this was a democracy... it was designed to be, as far as the election system goes, doesn't seem all that democratic to me.

The system has been a flawed system for a long time.... Else why would they have tried to change it, and propose a change for it well over 700 times?

Please, enlighten me  :smirk:.




Hey smarty pants you need a login and password for that site. And your reason for the electoral college being meaningless is a cop out. If that happened and it changed the results of who won the presidency there would be riots in the streets, its not going to happen. Until it does your argument is void. "I don't like who won so I'm going to hide behind a law which will never be used to bash the president's rightful election"... pffft at you. There is no execuse for not voting.

And i guess you already forgot this from my last post but if the vote was a single national one your vote from california still would have been insignicant in determining a candidate. Why does this fact escape you?

fun fact: In the last election due to the electorial college the presidency was a lot closer than it would have been with a single national vote.

The system is alrite but i guess you skipped over my last paragraph because i said there are other electorial systems which i prefer.

And they propose a lot of wierd, ass backwards, meaningless legislation that never gets passed so your numbers argument is flawed.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3864640 - 03/03/05 07:35 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Login: mpclib, Password: MPCLIB.

Beyond that. I'm not suggesting that my vote has any real significance in the real scheme of things. Reread what I was saying, read about the system and you'll realize how fucked up and senseless it is. And ermmm in all actuality my vote is meaningless in the context of the current system.

Stop being butthurt, you're wrong. Look over that site and talk to me when you're ready to talk and not be childish.




As per the distribution of representatives, per population and the format of the way the system currently works, an elected official is guranteed to a degree. Figure it out, do the math, then talk to me.

Process:
Add up all the green, add up all the orange, see the distribution of the numbers that count in regards to the election. Realize what it means and represents. The people decide on every other issue effecting them directly (beyond what is and isn't being proposed persay, but what passess for the most part and comes into effect). The government is here to serve the people... not vice versa. And this system is without a doubt flawed.

Or... we could debate that Kerry wasn't sincere enough, and that is what determined the whole election and go back into the context of ones ability to sell their image.. But, I believe it's more important to focus on the dynamics of election, not the sale of legitimacy of one.

Have fun d33p, I wish I could be as comfortably numb as you are. Think with your mind, and not how you're taught to think (inherent truths are only such that we give them truth).


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 08:09 PM)

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3864819 - 03/03/05 08:16 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
password is mpclib, MPCLIB.

Beyond that. I'm not suggesting that my vote has any real significance in the real scheme of things. Reread what I was saying, read about the system and you'll realize how fucked up and senseless it is. And ermmm in all actuality my vote is meaningless in the context of the current system.

Stop being butthurt, you're wrong. Look over that site and talk to me when you're ready to talk and not be childish.




As per the distribution of representatives, per population and the format of the way the system currently works, an elected official is guranteed to a degree. Figure it out, do the math, then talk to me.

Process:
Add up all the green, add up all the orange, see the distribution of the numbers that count in regards to the election. Realize what it means and represents. The people decide on every other issue effecting them directly (beyond what is and isn't being proposed persay, but what passess for the most part and comes into effect). The government is here to serve the people... not vice versa. And this system is without a doubt flawed.

Or... we could debate that Kerry wasn't sincere enough, and that is what determined the whole election and go back into the context of ones ability to sell their image.. But, I believe it's more important to focus on the dynamics of election, not the sale of legitimacy of one.

Have fun d33p, I wish I could be as comfortably numb as you are.





Give me a specific links if you want me to check out the site, I have a life ya know.

And in all reality your vote will be meaningless in whatever system we use. If you died today it would have no bearing whatsoever on which president would get elected in the future.

And i actually know quite a bit about the constitutional convention and every aspect of the American government drawn up during it including the electoral system (Thanks schooling). And Omgosh the electoral college does have a very specific purpose still relevant today that makes it far better than a single national vote. So please cite specifically what is so fucked up and senseless about the system. You have been quite vague so far.

Your picture only proves my point. It has never happened and it will never happen.

About process paragraph: WTF are you talking about? An elector choosing a candidate that he shouldn't(without accordance to the people's vote) has never affected an election and it will surely never affect an election. Why do you keep bringing this up. Also i have no idea what you mean from the 3rd sentence on.

And wow to that last paragraph, such a fucking cop out. Have you ever examined Kerry's proposed policies? They were atrocious, he was a horrible candidate. Bush was also bad but a better choice than Kerry. Bush primarily won on image, proposed plans, and the issues he attacked among other things. He did not win because of the election dynamics.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3864877 - 03/03/05 08:27 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
password is mpclib, MPCLIB.

Beyond that. I'm not suggesting that my vote has any real significance in the real scheme of things. Reread what I was saying, read about the system and you'll realize how fucked up and senseless it is. And ermmm in all actuality my vote is meaningless in the context of the current system.

Stop being butthurt, you're wrong. Look over that site and talk to me when you're ready to talk and not be childish.




As per the distribution of representatives, per population and the format of the way the system currently works, an elected official is guranteed to a degree. Figure it out, do the math, then talk to me.

Process:
Add up all the green, add up all the orange, see the distribution of the numbers that count in regards to the election. Realize what it means and represents. The people decide on every other issue effecting them directly (beyond what is and isn't being proposed persay, but what passess for the most part and comes into effect). The government is here to serve the people... not vice versa. And this system is without a doubt flawed.

Or... we could debate that Kerry wasn't sincere enough, and that is what determined the whole election and go back into the context of ones ability to sell their image.. But, I believe it's more important to focus on the dynamics of election, not the sale of legitimacy of one.

Have fun d33p, I wish I could be as comfortably numb as you are.





Give me a specific links if you want me to check out the site, I have a life ya know.

And in all reality your vote will be meaningless in whatever system we use. If you died today it would have no bearing whatsoever on which president would get elected in the future.

And i actually know quite a bit about the constitutional convention and every aspect of the American government drawn up during it including the electoral system (Thanks schooling). And Omgosh the electoral college does have a very specific purpose still relevant today that makes it far better than a single national vote. So please cite specifically what is so fucked up and senseless about the system. You have been quite vague so far.

Your picture only proves my point. It has never happened and it will never happen.

About process paragraph: WTF are you talking about? An elector choosing a candidate that he shouldn't(without accordance to the people's vote) has never affected an election and it will surely never affect an election. Why do you keep bringing this up. Also i have no idea what you mean from the 3rd sentence on.

And wow to that last paragraph, such a fucking cop out. Have you ever examined Kerry's proposed policies? They were atrocious, he was a horrible candidate. Bush was also bad but a better choice than Kerry. Bush primarily won on image, proposed plans, and the issues he attacked among other things. He did not win because of the election dynamics.




Grow up.... Review the system if your gowing to even attempt to argue with me, I'm well aware of the dynamics and flaws.. you aren't. Subvert the issue as much as you wish, I refuse to argue with someone who refuses to be open minded and tends to rely on what is forced-feed via political constituencies.

Get back to me, take the time, gain the knowledge, lose your temper and discuss, your bitching and assertions aren't doing much. If you read up on the system you'd know why it's so fucked up.... do some research for yourselves, I'm not here to assert any politically motivated agenda, I'm providing a different perspective to it... sorry if it is so radical...

Would you rather I talk about the fact that Kerry didn't win because he was "flip-flop-flippen" all over the fuckin' place?

It doesn't provide a reasonable means to give the true representative vote to the people unlike many other rulings that are alotted to them. Dunno why it's structured in such a way and why the presidency is affected by it to that degree, yet the laws that we vote for as a people aren't subject to the same electoral college. Think with your own ideas, not those that are fed to you. Unless you're only in fact capable of thinking with the information presented, and not able to deviate from it to the degree you're unwilling to see or at least be open minded about another way of looking at an issue.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3864967 - 03/03/05 08:43 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Grow up.... Review the system if your gowing to even attempt to argue with me, I'm well aware of the dynamics and flaws.. you aren't. Subvert the issue as much as you wish, I refuse to argue with someone who refuses to be open minded and tends to rely on what is forced-feed via political constituencies.

Get back to me, take the time, gain the knowledge, lose your temper and discuss, your bitching and assertions aren't doing much.




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I know the system, i haven't been subverting the issue, and I'm opened minded. You have done absolutely nothing to show otherwise. I used to be a debator in high school and a good one at that. In all my years of debating i have never (except for the shroomery) seen an opponent basically say, "You're stupid and i am right so i refuse to debate with you." Good luck in life buddy with that attitude.

Haha temper, show me where I've lost my temper. As well if you haven't been able to notice i am childish on purpose to those who are childish with me(it began with you in post #3864429). Its also a fairly effective debating style when debators place themselves into their arguments I've found.

Also what bitching and what assertions?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3864992 - 03/03/05 08:48 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Wow, I'd think you are still in Highschool with your willingness and your affection for recieving negative attention. Thanks again for demonstrating my point. Always a clever way to argue, when you have nothing to say.... suggest the other person is stupid while offering no other recourse for analysis...

You sure were/are a good highschool debater.

Edit:
Sorry, I've no such similar qualification... nor do I need them, I'm more then aware of how to debate and how to conduct an argument. The art of debating isn't uninspired drible, and a recourse filled with misdirection. True debate is knowing how to argue without knowing how to be taught. If you have to be taught something... obviously you're lacking in the ability to conduct an argument. Perhaps you need to become more proficient. Get back to me when you're finished with highschool and/or go back to it and pass.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 09:05 PM)

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Offlined33p
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3865149 - 03/03/05 09:16 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Please make up your mind before hitting send. It will make it much easier for both us.

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Grow up.... Review the system if your gowing to even attempt to argue with me, I'm well aware of the dynamics and flaws.. you aren't.You have made no indication of that, unless that web address is linked to your brain(even then i havent looked through the whole site so i can't say if it is a good source) Subvert the issue as much as you wish,Where? The only point you've made is a non-issue. I refuse to argue with someone who refuses to be open minded and tends to rely on what is forced-feed via political constituencies. sure........

Get back to me, take the time, gain the knowledge, lose your temper and discuss, your bitching and assertions aren't doing much. If you read up on the system you'd know why it's so fucked up....I have and that is very convincing argument you have there. You must win a lot of arguments with similar variations of that one sentence. do some research for yourselves,What makes you think i havent I'm not here to assert any politically motivated agenda, I'm providing a different perspective to it... sorry if it is so radical... I have nothing against the radical part, the being wrong part is where i have my gruff  :tongue:

Would you rather I talk about the fact that Kerry didn't win because he was "flip-flop-flippen" all over the fuckin' place? I specifically stated key issues as to why Bush won and kerry lost, maybe you missed that. But the flip-flopper image that Bush painted kerry as was fairly successful, it stuck to kerry really good.

It doesn't provide a reasonable means to give the true representative vote to the people unlike many other rulings that are alotted to them.Newsflash: America is a federation of states not people. The electoral college is used to balance the power of presidential election across the states rather than placing that power solely in large populated areas(which would happen in single national vote, in turn disenfranchising many more people than are today). Dunno why it's structured in such a waylook above and why the presidency is affected by it to that degree,Only 4 times in history has the winner of the national vote not won the electoral college, doesn't seem to have had an incredible effect to me yet the laws that we vote for as a people aren't subject to the same electoral college.Through what national voting practice are you talking about? Think with your own ideas, not those that are fed to you. Unless you're only in fact capable of thinking with the information presented, and not able to deviate from it to the degree you're unwilling to see or at least be open minded about another way of looking at an issue. You are the one who seems to be so set on what you believe and i'm guessing what that site tells you.




edit: typed in similar instead of siginifcant, but now i changed the sentence so it works another way


--------------------
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bang bang

Edited by d33p (03/03/05 09:36 PM)

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3865191 - 03/03/05 09:25 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

I'm presenting a different perspective of looking at it. I'm not being dogmatic, nor was I until you argued me. If you don't hold my views, fine.. I'm not forcing you to share them. But to so readily dismiss something with having no idea as the detriment it proposes.

It's a flawed system. Sorry you're so happy with the way things are, I'll leave you to your beliefs. Perhaps I shouldn't be arguing with you at all, as it seems as if you are so close minded to the extent that you can't be open minded to what I was suggesting.

Sorry... you're perfectly happy with the way things are, we've no further need to discuss anything.

Beyond that, well nothing against you, sorry you're happy with a system that deviates from the norm of political representation, yet isn't sustained in a similar system of voting. Further, we can chase circles all day, but If you can convince me that it is more suitable, and more representative of what voters want.... then do so. As it stands now, a hell of a lot of people currently aren't happy with the dynamics of the system.

BTW... It's all stated in this forum, no need to take anything out of context, grow up when you're ready to show me how good a debator you are. As it stands now, you're doing nothing but sidetracking the argument on the basis of your unwillingness to see something from a different vantage point. Further, you're only asserting what an ass you are by continuing to draw focus off of what I was saying, as surely you're going to make yet another immature post, and further sidetrack from what I was saying.

Prove me wrong please, and back it up.

Sorry, if you'd rather attempt to cut the tree down by cutting the limbs, by all means do it. I prefer getting at the roots. (hopefully you aren't so daft as to take that out of context :lol:)

BTW, last post as well if you're going to keep it up and further exacerbate an issue that doesn't exist. Think for a while, calm down, and quit your ego trippin'.



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3865208 - 03/03/05 09:28 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Wow, I'd think you are still in Highschool with your willingness and your affection for recieving negative attention. Thanks again for demonstrating my point. Always a clever way to argue, when you have nothing to say.... suggest the other person is stupid while offering no other recourse for analysis...

You sure were/are a good highschool debater.

Edit:
Sorry, I've no such similar qualification... nor do I need them, I'm more then aware of how to debate and how to conduct an argument. The art of debating isn't uninspired drible, and a recourse filled with misdirection. True debate is knowing how to argue without knowing how to be taught. If you have to be taught something... obviously you're lacking in the ability to conduct an argument. Perhaps you need to become more proficient. Get back to me when you're finished with highschool and/or go back to it and pass.




What negative attention? What point? I've rebbutled the two point relative to the subject of elections you made but you have avoided my answer by calling me ignorant of the subject along with all of my other points. When did i say you were stupid, you are the one calling me ignorant and saying you dont want to debate. You are making no sense. Is english your first language? I'm begining to wonder if something is being lost in translation.

You say you know how to debate but you have yet to prove that. When i ask you to make your points and back them up YOU TELL ME TO DO RESEARCH. How i ask you is that debating? Your 3rd sentence in your second paragraph is meaningless. The 4th sentence is an incorrect correlation, which has absolutely no relavince to the previous posts. The next two sentences are you being critical of my knowledge which serve no purpose.

edit: You actually made two points on topic not one, but i rebuttled both of them. Of course you chose to ignore this.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Edited by d33p (03/03/05 09:47 PM)

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3865218 - 03/03/05 09:30 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

You've proved my point, have fun asserting your dogma. And sorry d33p, I didn't know that you had to always be right. I'll be visiting this post though, but won't bother to respond to your trite responses. Save your energy comming back with a response, I'm saving mine.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3867504 - 03/04/05 11:40 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I've been thinking about this for months.

There are many reasons Kerry lost, most of 'em have been mentioned already.

1. Bush got more electoral points.

2. Bush got more votes.

3. Bush did a better job of assassinating Kerry's CHARACTER. Kerry's approach assassinated America's character, not Bush's.

Bush
_3a. Swift Boat Veterans For Truth

_3b. Flip Flopper

_3c. Mass. Liberal

Kerry
_3d. Unjust War

_3e. Lying President taking us into a phony war

_3f. Michael Moore

4. Kerry looked too idiotic, too many times, in too many sports photo ops.

5. Kerry overexplained himself.

6. Bush was misunderestimated... yet again. Anne Richards, John McKain, Al Gore, and now... John Kerry. Perhaps it it time to stop thinking Bush is stupid.

7. Karl Rove

8. John Lovitz

9. War was an issue... but...

10. Not the one we fought in Vietnam.

11. I bet Kerry wishes he went after those Christian voters now!


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Rose]
    #3867519 - 03/04/05 11:44 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Nice concise Summary.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3867744 - 03/04/05 12:42 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

The electoral college argument is absurd. Sure, it's easy to complain when Bush wins the presidency, but are you gonna complain when the candidate you support reaps the benefit of electoral votes? I don't think so.

I, myself, think the electoral college needs to stay, but it needs to be changed some. I think it should not be a winnter-take-all, but more of a proportional system, where each president can share electoral votes from the same state.

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Redstorm]
    #3867890 - 03/04/05 01:10 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
The electoral college argument is absurd. Sure, it's easy to complain when Bush wins the presidency, but are you gonna complain when the candidate you support reaps the benefit of electoral votes? I don't think so.

I, myself, think the electoral college needs to stay, but it needs to be changed some. I think it should not be a winnter-take-all, but more of a proportional system, where each president can share electoral votes from the same state.




I don't have a specified candidate, so I'm being objective in terms of the system. So I take no position but an objective one in my estimation of its flaw.

We have the capacity no to deal with every single vote... and I do mean every vote. The electoral college and the argument for sustaining the argument is no longer sufficient, and its basis never truly was. We have the ability to account for all votes that are taken in, yet we stick to a flawed system that misrepresents popular opinion.

Just to clarify, my stance is that the election of a "president" (figurehead if you prefer, with all the vacations that some seem to take.... no names mentioned) should be determined by the people DIRECTLY. Why not... they are the ones that have to deal with his leadership, so shouldn't the opinion of the majority be represented? You can't make all people happy, I realize that, but representing the majority to the extent possible, and doing so objectively should be the primary goal of electing a President. Well, what I think anyhow, comments and ideas appreciated.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3867917 - 03/04/05 01:15 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I wasn't directing that statement at you alone. It was kind of just an observation.

Though I do support the idea of direct popular election, I just think there is too much room for error. I can see voter fraud and the like getting wildly out of hand if it happened.

Just my $.02

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Redstorm]
    #3867935 - 03/04/05 01:19 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I wasn't directing that statement at you alone. It was kind of just an observation.

Though I do support the idea of direct popular election, I just think there is too much room for error. I can see voter fraud and the like getting wildly out of hand if it happened.

Just my $.02




:thumbup:

I fully agree with that statement.

But afaik it is already out of hand concerning some previous elections had issues concerning the popular vote....

Really, we are all ready in a predicament of error, just needs to get sorted, and using something for this long that is indicitive of error isn't going to help.

I dunno, the only reason I choose to press the issue, is that:
1) It's a poor representation of the population
and
2) Essentially we're giving the population at large "cookies" (gold stars if you prefer), i.e. a pat on the back for voting.... where in reality, their vote didn't determine much of anything as per the current system.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3867977 - 03/04/05 01:29 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I do agree that it necessary for a republic to eventually have presidential elections based on popular vote, but I don't think they'd go straight from a winner-take-all electoral college to a popular vote. That's why I suggested electoral votes based on a proportional system. even though it's nto completely direct, it could cut down on some voter apathy and alienation (Rep. in Cal, Dem. in rural states) by allowing their votes to at least count towards some of the total electoral votes.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Redstorm]
    #3868002 - 03/04/05 01:35 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

The point of it being to estalish a new system eventually? Do you suggest this to "ween" everyone off of the current system, or to replace it entirely?

I dunno, I'm of the opinion that it's better to immerse yourself in cold water, instead of testing it all day.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3868013 - 03/04/05 01:38 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I think it would be easier to ween everyone off the electoral system.

From:

Winner-take-all electorals ---> Proportional electorals -----> Popular vote

It wouldn't really be weaning off the population, more the politicians.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Redstorm]
    #3868043 - 03/04/05 01:44 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

:lol: I like it. Dunno, then they'd even have more down time.

Now that I think about that.... It could be a worse that way...

Propoganda machines with nothing to do...... Think how malicious they could be if all let loose, and without a purpose at once?

Maybe a job rehabilitation process?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3868065 - 03/04/05 01:47 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

:lol:

:thumbup:

I'm an avid supporter of proportional electorals. Other than doing away with them entirely, thats the thing I support most.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3868440 - 03/04/05 03:00 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
[Just to clarify, my stance is that the election of a "president" (figurehead if you prefer, with all the vacations that some seem to take.... no names mentioned) should be determined by the people DIRECTLY. Why not... they are the ones that have to deal with his leadership, so shouldn't the opinion of the majority be represented? You can't make all people happy, I realize that, but representing the majority to the extent possible, and doing so objectively should be the primary goal of electing a President. Well, what I think anyhow, comments and ideas appreciated.




Well i already i answered this question but I'll repeat myself. America is a federation of states not people. Therefore the power to elect the president must be spread evenly amongst the states. At the constitutional convention there were representatives for both large and small states who tried to adopt a constitution which would benefit their state most. To ratify the constitution 9 out of 13 states had to be in agreement. Since a presidential election system using an electoral college with even numbers of electors for each state would greatly benefit smaller states, it would obviously not pass legislation. As well a popular vote would greatly benefit larger states would not pass as well. Many, many proposals were made(some even accepted and then later rejected) until Morris of Pennsylvania's proposal which is basically the presidential system we use today.

So to recap the power of presidential election should be spread evenly among the states as those are the principles that America was founded on(it being a federation of states) but for there to be agreement to ratify the Constitution some middle road had to be taken.

And on a side note i am just wondering what your feeling are about Britain's  constitution being largely unwritten, instead based on tradition and precedent(this concerns there being no law forcing state electors to abide to voter results).

But of course i am stupid and i don't know anything about the topic. :frown:


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: d33p]
    #3868471 - 03/04/05 03:05 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I realize that, but it isn't why I'm debating with you. I agree with you in the state of affairs, fully and completely (as to the reasoning).

Just saying that the state of affairs isn't pleasing the most amount of people which it should be.

Is the government designed to further implement beauracracy that doesn't work? Or is it designed to benefit that which it protects? (people)

Britain's policies are going down hill, as well as our own are. It matters not what is written, more so the effect it has in determining policy and suiting the public (society). It's design should be based on functionality without regard to what is written.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlineinfamous
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3869577 - 03/04/05 06:38 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

they were both there for a reason bush was there to win and kerry was there to lose, no matter how people voted...IMO


--------------------
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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3872700 - 03/05/05 11:45 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Kerry was a joke, the American people saw through him. His only reason for running was on a "anyone but bush" agenda. The problem is is that he would say ANYTHING to make Bush look bad without giving actual ideas of how to solve problems. I'm convinced that all you need to do to be a liberal candidate is say that you will do something about (insert popular issue, health care, education etc.)and you will get almost half the votes with absolutely no plan whatsoever....God, it must be easy to live in a world with no ideas of how to solve problems.




Couldn't have said it better myself unfortunately.


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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3872713 - 03/05/05 11:52 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

usefulidiot said:
Kerry lost because he was supposed to lose.

A better question might be: how is it that the majority of America is actually putting up with Bush & co stealing both previous elections?




I personally think a better question would be how do people put up with idiots who actually believe that Bush & his evil facist chronies stole the election :smirk:


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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3873767 - 03/05/05 05:05 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

It's not stolen, so much that it was given in every form of the word. Via candidate presentation, media coverage, electoral votes...


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4547744 - 08/17/05 05:39 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)


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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4547759 - 08/17/05 05:42 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4550852 - 08/18/05 08:39 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Not gonna read all the replies yet, but here is my brief summation, in no order at all of impact.

* Smear campaigns by the GOP and Bush's people
* Kerry himself wasn't a "strong" enough candidate
* GWB mobilized the religious right with buzzwords about gay marriage and abortion
* GOP used terrorism as a means to convince people to just "stay the course"
* Rampant voter fraud, especially in the electronic record only districts
* Not enough people voted (as usual)
* The electoral college system put this election in the hands of ohio and to a lesser extent florida
* Despite being a pork barrel, deficit spending president, fiscal conservatives had no other choice, being told that Kerry would tax them into the ground
* The Media mis-represented almost everything about both candidates, depending on which bias they market to

It's a remarkably complex issue and there is no one, singular reason Kerry lost really..except maybe the voter fraud, depending on the extent of it.. but we'll never really know just how bad that was. A lot of the blame falls squarely on the people who voted. Many of them simply towed the line and didn't give the voting process the thought and consideration it deserves. Also people were polarized by Bush's campaign on the hot button issues mentioned above. In other words, religious fervor and homophobia helped put Bush back in office.

It's a disgrace really.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #4550884 - 08/18/05 09:01 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
Quote:

usefulidiot said:
Kerry lost because he was supposed to lose.

A better question might be: how is it that the majority of America is actually putting up with Bush & co stealing both previous elections?




I personally think a better question would be how do people put up with idiots who actually believe that Bush & his evil facist chronies stole the election :smirk:




:rolleyes:

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=392&row=0

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Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: unbeliever]
    #4551155 - 08/18/05 10:42 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
Not gonna read all the replies yet, but here is my brief summation, in no order at all of impact.

* Smear campaigns by the GOP and Bush's people

I can only guess that you might be referring to the Swifties. As far as I have seen they have largely survived tremendous liberal media scrutiny and there claims have not been disproved. Kerry himself could have cut them off by releasing his full military records. To this day, in spite of pledges as recently as this year on Imus, he has not done so. Other than that it seemed to be business as usual, except for Rathergate, which smear ran the other way.

* Kerry himself wasn't a "strong" enough candidate

His Brahmin act may play in Massachusetts but it doesn't travel all that well. He is not a likable guy and I don't think he likes to mingle with the hoi poloi, and they could tell. You are quite correct.

* GWB mobilized the religious right with buzzwords about gay marriage and abortion

The funny thing is is that the gay marriage thing was even out there at all because of a left wing judges decision. I don't recall Bush himself or his staff making much noise about abortion. If anybody mobilized the religious right it was Kerry. They really really hated him

* GOP used terrorism as a means to convince people to just "stay the course"

Used? Whatever. It was the single biggest issue in the minds of much of the electorate and addressing it is not actually "using" it. Don't forget that Kerry's stated positions were almost the same as Bush's on this issue, until he thought he could gain some traction by changing

* Rampant voter fraud, especially in the electronic record only districts

Ahem, bullshit, ahem. Most of the proven voting irregularities were committed by Democrats. The electronic voter paranoia is just that

* Not enough people voted (as usual)

More people voted than ever before

* The electoral college system put this election in the hands of ohio and to a lesser extent florida

Bullshit, they were just last counted and went for the winner. You could just as easily say California won for Kerry if he had prevailed.

* Despite being a pork barrel, deficit spending president, fiscal conservatives had no other choice, being told that Kerry would tax them into the ground

For your information "pork" is a product of Congress and is partaken of by both sides of the aisle. And Kerry himself said he would raise taxes. In the end, the only deficit most people care about is their own.

* The Media mis-represented almost everything about both candidates, depending on which bias they market to

Whatever. Nothing new here

It's a remarkably complex issue and there is no one, singular reason Kerry lost really..except maybe the voter fraud, depending on the extent of it.. but we'll never really know just how bad that was. A lot of the blame falls squarely on the people who voted. Many of them simply towed the line and didn't give the voting process the thought and consideration it deserves. Also people were polarized by Bush's campaign on the hot button issues mentioned above. In other words, religious fervor and homophobia helped put Bush back in office.

It's a disgrace really.




Religious fervor? Please. Not supporting gay marriage isn't homophobia either (frankly, does that word even make sense?) Kerry lost mostly because he is an elitist dick and came across as a phony who will do and say anything to get elected. Hillary will have the same issues and then some. It is very tough for a Northeastern liberal to win a national election. FDR was the last. JFK was not a liberal, he was very tough on defense. As to your attitude that someone who voted contrary to your position didn't think or was stupid or uninformed, well, that attitude is pretty much killing off the effectiveness of the Dems everywhere. I can just as easily say that only incompetent dumbasses looking for a government handout supported Kerry


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 21 days
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4551174 - 08/18/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
GOP talking points




Whatever. We'll never agree. You have your idea of what reality is, and I have mine. This argument is so old and stale and obviously pointless. I'm not a republican but I'm not a democrat either. I think the whole two party system is fucking us over, mainly because it polarizes people into two groups and ends up limiting their options for a good candidate. Unfortuantely that's just the way both the repubs and dems like it, so it's not likely to change very soon, at least not on a national level.

Support 3rd Party candidates at the local level. It's gotta start there. </tangent>


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: unbeliever]
    #4551260 - 08/18/05 11:11 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Look, I gave my honest assessment of what I thought Kerry's election difficulties are. My opinions do not come from an analysis of one source of information. I don't fucking care if Dems believe me or not. The NE liberal assessment is clearly correct and I am not a GOP puppet although I agree with most of their economic and foreign policy. I would vote Libertarian every time if there was a viable candidate. There never is. Oh well, too bad. Gotta move on and live in the real world. I'd outlaw churches if I could. Imaginary beings are for children. Name one atheist in national office. I thought my analysis was dispassionate, whereas yours was riddled with emotional nonsense about voter fraud and homophobia.

You know, the two party system is not necessarily the problem. The primary system may be more of an issue. A true centrist could never win his own primary. (Don't even bother telling me Clinton was centrist. First priority: National health care)


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 9 days
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4551387 - 08/18/05 11:41 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Is the problem that the Libertarians don't have a viable candidate or that they are not a viable party?

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4552003 - 08/18/05 02:37 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Not a viable party.

To Democrats they seem cold-hearted (We have compassionate conservatives and bleeding-heart liberals, there's a common thread there)

To Republicans I imagine they seem hedonistic drug users.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why do you think Kerry lost? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4552046 - 08/18/05 02:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well, here it is. By and large and in slow steps the Democrats in particular and liberals in general have been marginalizing themselves. When they have been suitably emasculated and are no longer a threat the Republicans and true conservatives (Libertarians) will split and then there will be a real worthwhile choice. Liberals are a useless distraction, often harmful, never relevant.


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