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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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The evolution of the supershroom
    #3834346 - 02/25/05 08:50 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Do you think that cubes will eventually be domesticated in the same way that MJ has been? I have read that the potency of MJ has increased due to controlled breeding.

Mushrooms are in a different kingdom so you can't really compare the two. But do you think something similar will happen (or is happening) with shrooms? Look forward to your response.


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OfflineXTCollection
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3834461 - 02/25/05 09:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think PESA was the attempt at refining genetics in cubies. I dont see it doing that, as most cub's are the same, potency wise. Prolific fruiting and potency would be the key traits, and contam resistance.

I do know that mushies show the same inheritance features of MJ - Meaning spores take from mutes or desirable germs generally carry the same genetic material.

Possible, but I dont see the neccesity. MJ degrades when not protecting its pedigree, especially potency and growth patterns. But not so with mushies. There is an average potency, with not much straying from the baseline. Marijuana varies soooooooooooo much.


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Offlineshroommachine
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3834674 - 02/25/05 10:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Good weed 150 years ago was just as good weed now. Marijuana growing has been going on for 10,000 years, there hasn't been any great potency rise in the last 100 years. Good weed is much more available though.


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And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.


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Offlineshroommachine
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3834696 - 02/25/05 10:06 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Also, I think the trypamine enriched substrate will be the next big thing in shroom growing.


--------------------
And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3835024 - 02/25/05 11:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

burma is well above any other cube I have seen...its so damn aggressive for pins you HAVE to cover the sides of your bin(solid in colour or not) in tinfoil...and can't even expose anything to light during a dunk...I've had the sides so covered in shrooms I couldn't see the substrate and the bin was solid in colour! not only that but it is the only cube I have seen that can take on pretty much any contam(bacteria, black, green, white) I've seen it kill all of these and completely colonize the substrate


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3835075 - 02/26/05 12:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Shroom Machine is correct. Weed has not increased in potency in the last hundred years of breeding, and this is per Greg Green and Jorge Cervantes both. When most old hippies say that the grass we smoke today was way better than what they smoked back in the sixtys, is usually because the majority of pot that was coming into california etc. etc. Was shitty brick weed that did not have the proper genetics and was not manicured, dried, or cured correctly. They would just harvest bail it up and let it dry on the way to the U.S.


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"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3835118 - 02/26/05 12:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Did they have the blueberry, bubbliciouss, lowryder ... strains back then? Is their any proof back then of 22% THC mj? I understand the best weed back then was close to the average best weed now. But what about the absolute best now, do you really think weed from 100 years ago without rigorous breeding programs is equivalent?


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Offlineonetime
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: cb9fl]
    #3835384 - 02/26/05 01:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

well i think that if 150 yrs ago they controlled the growth of weed and kept it seed free they could have got it to be 20+% thc but no one cared back then i dont think


--------------------

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Yes, with my own three eyes.
Depression, Misspells , wanting everying thing i cant have haveing nothing i want


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: onetime]
    #3835444 - 02/26/05 02:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Its true that we have some differen't strains these days. But all that is is flavor. I dont have my books with me right now, im at work, But from what the experts are saying they had 22% back in the 60s. Mel Franks Marijuana growers guide has some charts in it on potency. But like i said I dont have them on me. And yes i do believe that the pot was just as potent. The potency is determined by the genetics. If you mix a strain of 18% thc, with a strain thats 22% thc, your not giong to have a strain thats 40% thc. So if you think about it your not going to be able to increase the potency just by rigorous breeding over 30 years.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3836098 - 02/26/05 10:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

That's true but evolution works in part through genetic mutations.

Let's say today the strongest strain is 20% then through a genetic mutation we get a strain that has 21%. We then start breeding the somewhat higher percentage strain. Over time it becomes dominant and produces another genetic mutation which now has 22%. The 22% would have never before existed.

I'm not sure if that's how it has worked for marijuana but it is possible. It's possible that qualities existing today simply did not exist 100 years ago or even 50.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: cb9fl]
    #3836239 - 02/26/05 11:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Marijuana breeding is a bit more complex than what your thinking. And evolution by definition is not a genetic mutation. It is a trait that is passed down because it has shown to be superior, i.e. sickle cell anemia complex. If you had a mutation pop up you are going to have to be able to breed it with another of that same genetic mutation and the likely hood of that happening is quite slim. Now i guess you could hermaph the plant out and fertilize itself. But even then you are going to get multiple phenotypes from the seeds. And they would be extremely unstable genetics. To say that without us the marijuana would not become more potent is in part just wrong. Marijuana strains have different traits because of the envrionmental conditions that it was naturally growing in. For example Cannabis Rudderallis (spelling??) has a trait where it automatically starts flowering after about 8 weeks. It does not require a change in photoperiod duration. This is because it mostly was growing in envriontments that were fairly harsh. So to ensure that it passed it genetics on it automatically starts the flowering process no matter what the conditions around it are. Now mutation is not completely out of the question but would be extremely hard to breed for.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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OfflineXTCollection
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3836275 - 02/26/05 11:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

But what is the point of breeding cubensis? MJ pedigree's will degrade when left to the wild. Plant a patch of blueberry or a hash plant, see what it degrades to without selective breeding, in say 5-6 gens... And Im not talking about unstable hybrids, I am talking about true breeding stock.

Cubensis has been equally good from pesa spores, or wild printed spores. Anyone ever smoke some of the wild grown mj out midwest? Im not refering to roadside hemp either, I am talking about adapted gardens that were never maintained. After all these years, its shit weed.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3836348 - 02/26/05 12:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Mutations are considered the driving force of evolution, since they introduce new genetic variation, without which evolution cannot proceed.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: cb9fl]
    #3839990 - 02/27/05 03:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In my opinion and from what that sight says, genetic mutation, yes is a part of evolution. But natural selection would play a much larger role. What advantages, from the marijuanas point of view, is a higher thc content going to be. Also for a genetic mutation to really take hold in the environment it will need to reproduce it self many times over to take a foot hold. Bottom line man, marijuana potency has NOT increased in the past 30-50 years.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3839994 - 02/27/05 04:00 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Many shroomers have told me that todays drugs are nothing like the ones today. Someone even said (agar...scat?...someone important like that :grin:) that they noticed that gt's weren't growing as big as they use to....but natural selection should help out, unless humans step in of course....

Doesn't this belong in the pub?...Hmm..ok w/e, i'm over it :lol:

-Gnostic


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3840020 - 02/27/05 04:10 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah it has kinda gotten a little off topic eh.... :rolleyes:  Oh well, no one has complained so far.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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OfflineTantalus
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3840177 - 02/27/05 06:11 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
In my opinion and from what that sight says, genetic mutation, yes is a part of evolution. But natural selection would play a much larger role. What advantages, from the marijuanas point of view, is a higher thc content going to be. Also for a genetic mutation to really take hold in the environment it will need to reproduce it self many times over to take a foot hold. Bottom line man, marijuana potency has NOT increased in the past 30-50 years.




You're right that in the short term evolutionarily speaking (I'm talking centuries) genetic mutations don't play a much role in cropping.

But you're right about natural selection. However, natural selection does not increase potency. It actually lowers it. That's why former pristine genetics will degrade over time. Producing 20% cannabinods is simply not an advantage for cannabis surviving in the wild on it's own.

But don't get natural selection mixed up with artificial selection. Artificial selection has picked the very best genetics for the best conditions for decades. I'd have to say though that the improvments (percentage wise) have been relatively small. After all, you can take heritage strains that have been around for decades and grown under perfect conditions, it'll be a spectacular smoke.

But I'd be willing to put money down that newer, artificially selected and bred genetics would be better (for potency, yield, smell, whatever they've been selected for,) even if it's by a relatively small percentage.

All the modern dog breds we have just pups selected for certain characteristics.


--------------------
"A nation's hope of lasting peace cannot be firmly based upon any race in armaments but rather upon just relations and honest understanding with all other nations...

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed... The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people..."

President Dwight Eisenhower, 1953


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: Tantalus]
    #3840197 - 02/27/05 06:27 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It sounds like were making pretty much the same argument. He was trying to claim that the pot strains we have now are stronger as compared to 30 years. Which, according to the Marijuana experts; Ed Rosenthal, Greg Green, Mel Frank, Jorje Cervantes, their not. Yes maybe .5% increase. But not noticable enough to be smoked and go WOW. And yes I completly agree in the area of differences in taste and the such are rapidly expanding. One thing to keep in mind is that humans have been cultivating Marijuana for a few thousand years now.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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OfflineTantalus
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3840346 - 02/27/05 08:19 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
It sounds like were making pretty much the same argument. He was trying to claim that the pot strains we have now are stronger as compared to 30 years.




Actually no, my point was that pot strains are better (stronger, higher yielding, whatever the goal is.) The difference just isn't as great as some people like to think -- when both are grown under optimal conditions. Even aside from genetics, much more of the pot grown today is under better conditions.

Sure people have been cultivating for thousands of years, but they've not been doing selective breeding for anywhere close to that long.


--------------------
"A nation's hope of lasting peace cannot be firmly based upon any race in armaments but rather upon just relations and honest understanding with all other nations...

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed... The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people..."

President Dwight Eisenhower, 1953


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: The evolution of the supershroom [Re: Tantalus]
    #3840497 - 02/27/05 10:27 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Bull shit, why do you think they were breeding them. It might not have been for thc content or yields. But they were breeding for uses of rope paper clothing. All of which your going to need different characteristics from the plant itself. Thats like saying we haven't been selectivly breeding any of our other agriculture products. Humans have been doing that from the moment we started cultivation.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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