Home | Community | Message Board


Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlinea_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
technology, cyborgs and post-humanism
    #3826841 - 02/24/05 12:17 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

all the posts on technology got me thinking on what people really want to achieve with the development of radically different life forms. imagining you could use a perfected technological body capable of sustaining your consciousness in this world for an unlimited period of time, what would you do with your life? would you really live forever? wouldn't the question "what if there's something behind death" be constantly troubling your mind? would you stop people from reproducing and creating other living beings?

the ultimate goal in buddhism is to escape the wheel of rebirth, by dying and not being reborn in this world, nor in heaven, nor in hell, but simply escaping behind suffering (maybe into the original source of everything). would you imprison yourself on earth?

and wouldn't christians want to experience heaven?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: a_h_w]
    #3827203 - 02/24/05 01:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Why simply "sustain" your consciousness? Technology could be used to expand the limits of human consciousness.                                               
                                                                                                                                        I always wanted to have a math co-processor in the back of my head :yesnod:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: trendal]
    #3828558 - 02/24/05 06:57 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Why have a co-processor in your head when there are calculators on cell phones and laptops?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3829104 - 02/24/05 08:54 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I am limited by the communication channel: it takes time to input numbers on the keypad then read it off. In computational terms, the time it takes to input data by hand is incredibly long.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinea_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: trendal]
    #3831649 - 02/25/05 05:06 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

yesterday everyone was posting here on how good technology is, on how great it would be to ever improve our capacities. but when confronted with the end possibility of sustaining your life as an individual forever, when facing the option of death, the only thing you can say is you'd like to have a math processor in your brain!

about expanding consciousness, I guess in this forum everyone knows that technology already exists and it was not developed by humans.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: trendal]
    #3831816 - 02/25/05 08:02 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

So what? Isn't being human about accepting your shortcomings? And isn't a part of the use for science to find shortcuts (i.e. formulas) that will help us calculate something faster? If we didn't need shortcuts, where would science be today?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Edited by Alan Stone (02/25/05 08:03 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3831849 - 02/25/05 08:34 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Can I not accept my shortcomings, then work to find a shortcut around them? Taking a shortcut is exactly what I'm talking about, here. As you said, science provides us with shortcuts to do things faster. How would implants be any different? They would still be shortcuts to doing things faster.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: a_h_w]
    #3831851 - 02/25/05 08:36 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Did you read my first post? I was saying that yes I would chose to "live forever" if technology provided the way, however I do not think that technology will simply provide a life "sustaining" function...but will actually be able to expand the limits of human consciousness. Perhaps, in the end, we would not even be human anymore.

At any rate, it isn't as if you had to make the dedision ONCE and ONCE ONLY: do I want to live forever or not? I'm sure if technology could provide the means to eternal life, it could also just as easily cut that "eternal" life short.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: trendal]
    #3831857 - 02/25/05 08:42 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

In the case of science, you are providing the shortcut yourself. In the case of implants, you become dependant on it for the shortcut. You yourself contribute nothing to the equation.
Would you sacrifice your autonomy for an increase in numerical processing? I wouldn't. For one thing, crunching numbers isn't all that important to me.

Quote:

At any rate, it isn't as if you had to make the dedision ONCE and ONCE ONLY: do I want to live forever or not? I'm sure if technology could provide the means to eternal life, it could also just as easily cut that "eternal" life short.



That depends on how sentient you allow the technology to become. If it starts thinking of you as an energy source and no more, where does that leave you?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Edited by Alan Stone (02/25/05 08:45 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3831889 - 02/25/05 09:01 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)


So what? Isn't being human about accepting your shortcomings? And isn't a part of the use for science to find shortcuts (i.e. formulas) that will help us calculate something faster? If we didn't need shortcuts, where would science be today?


No way. Where did you get the idea that being human is accepting shortcomings? Speaking for myself, I strive to better myself in all areas of life... defeating the things that hold me back. This is growth and advancement as an individual.

If genetic engineering can improve certain aspects of my life... and hopefully give me the ability to improve things on my own, then I am 100% in favor of it.

The absence of disease, living longer, faster neurological proces... all these things are something that can advance humans and for that, I think they are a noble and worthy goal.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: looner2]
    #3831910 - 02/25/05 09:15 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I'm talking about shortcomings like intelligence, not shortcomings like lack of cash or a bad temper. If you're born with a brain deficiency, you'll never be a genius, no matter how hard you strive to be one. Guess we had a clash of definitions there.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3831924 - 02/25/05 09:22 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

In the case of science, you are providing the shortcut yourself. In the case of implants, you become dependant on it for the shortcut.

I would say that in the case of science, you are becoming dependent on the shortcut anyway. How many people do you know who can't do anything beyond basic math without a calculator (I knew a HELL of a lot of these people, in school). How many people do you know who need to use a spell-check/grammar-check whenever they write something?

And what of "contributing" to the equation? When I'm working on a math problem, I am concerned about one thing: finding the answer. "Contributing to the equation" does not enter my mind.

Please explain how an implantable chip would sacrifice my autonomy any more than these computers we're sitting in front of already have.

That depends on how sentient you allow the technology to become. If it starts thinking of you as an energy source and no more, where does that leave you?

Woah now, when did we start talking about sentient technology? All I'm talking about is implantable augmentation devices...not fusing my mind with an AI of some sort.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3831938 - 02/25/05 09:25 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I'm talking about shortcomings like intelligence, not shortcomings like lack of cash or a bad temper. If you're born with a brain deficiency, you'll never be a genius, no matter how hard you strive to be one.

So people born with heart defects will never live, no matter how hard we try? People born with a predisposition to cancer should just lay down and die, since that's what they were "born with"?

Humans have been using our knowledge and techno skills for QUITE some time already to alter, change, or remove certain aspects of the "human existence". Ideas of augmentation beyond simple prosthetics are nothing new. They are simply the next step.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinea_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: trendal]
    #3831944 - 02/25/05 09:27 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
At any rate, it isn't as if you had to make the dedision ONCE and ONCE ONLY: do I want to live forever or not? I'm sure if technology could provide the means to eternal life, it could also just as easily cut that "eternal" life short.




yes. but for me there's a very big difference between a life where you can die of natural causes (your body gets old and one day stops) and a life where you can only die by accident or murder.
furthermore the problem of eternal life really is that you have to face the decision to keep on living or not for as long as you live. in the life we live right now, you don't have to worry about that, because we all know one day we'll die. you don't have to worry so much about what exists behind death because we will all know it for sure.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: a_h_w]
    #3831963 - 02/25/05 09:33 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

yes. but for me there's a very big difference between a life where you can die of natural causes (your body gets old and one day stops) and a life where you can only die by accident or murder.

Ever seen the movie Bicentennial Man? If not, the main character (who is the first ever "sentient" robot, the only of his kind) works for years to develop artificial body parts which will act like natural human body parts, including "aging" over time. He eventually "dies" from old age, despite starting his life off as a robot that would "never die".


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: trendal]
    #3832013 - 02/25/05 09:46 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

How many people do you know who can't do anything beyond basic math without a calculator (I knew a HELL of a lot of these people, in school). How many people do you know who need to use a spell-check/grammar-check whenever they write something?



A lot. However, I am not one of them. In case it wasn't clear, I was answering from a personal perspective.

Quote:

When I'm working on a math problem, I am concerned about one thing: finding the answer. "Contributing to the equation" does not enter my mind.



You don't want to enjoy what you're doing? I like to apply my mind to do things myself, no matter how long it takes. NOT taking the shortcut equals more satisfaction when you find the answer, IMO.
Try cheating when playing a computer game. Doesn't that take the fun right out of it?

Quote:

Please explain how an implantable chip would sacrifice my autonomy any more than these computers we're sitting in front of already have.



Okay, I was being a bit reductionistic about the issue. It depends on what you use the device for. I'll elaborate.
Using computers doesn't always sacrifice autonomy. Everyone using computers does. If your bosses require you to use them, they are the ones limiting the autonomy. That's what they pay you for.
I, myself, don't have a cell phone. Why? Because I don't see any added value in them, hence I refuse to give up a part of my autonomy.
In the case of the implant, it would depend on how advanced it is. If it can process known equations and calculations, it could be fine if the math is secondary to your line of work (for instance, if you're an engineer). If the implant can come up with new equations and you're a mathematician, you sacrifice your autonomy and thus the joy you derive from your line of work.

I guess every implant would have to be examined on a case-by-case cost vs added value scale. I'm happy the way I am, doing my math on my own and defeating my problems without an implant, so I don't need one.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: trendal]
    #3832024 - 02/25/05 09:49 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So people born with heart defects will never live, no matter how hard we try? People born with a predisposition to cancer should just lay down and die, since that's what they were "born with"?



No, I didn't say that. I meant to imply that people born without perfect mathematical processing will never have it, no matter how hard they try. Having a chip stuck in your head doesn't qualify as trying.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3832051 - 02/25/05 09:58 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Having a chip stuck in your head doesn't qualify as trying.


How doesn't it?

Is the hunter who uses a spear to kill a lion cheating in some way?

No. He is using the fruits of human intelligence to better his position. How is that any different from any of the tools we use to make our lives "better"?

I fail to see how you can draw a line and say "use of tools on this side is OK...all the other tools are cheating".


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinea_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: trendal]
    #3832073 - 02/25/05 10:06 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

this robot actually is the first "person" to reply my initial question. he was given the possibility of eternal life and chose to die, because only then could he feel to be truly human.

are we evolving to super robots so that we find one day we have to deconstruct ourselves to human beings again?

your quote of dave barry also agrees with me.

this was my point. that we're fine as we are. there are lots of improvements to make, but I don't really think it is so much a question of hardware. what we have to evolve is our minds.

there are exceptions, as for people that break the spine and become paraplegic. it would be fine to find a way to give them a bio-technological human body. but we're trying ain't we?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: technology, cyborgs and post-humanism [Re: a_h_w]
    #3832110 - 02/25/05 10:17 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Well how do you even know that death is preferable to "eternal" life? As far as I know, no humans currently have eternal life...so how do we know it's such a bad thing? How do you know that, if we should find a technology solution to death, we would have to turn around and "deconstruct ourselves to be human beings again"? What's so great about being human, anyway?

Now, don't get me wrong here. I don't sit around hoping that I will be able to live forever. When death comes, it will come. However I am certainly not opposed to the mere notion of eternal life. If I did, I die. If someone comes along and offers me eternal life, provided the cost is acceptable, I'd take that for a spin instead.

I mean, who wouldn't want a seat in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe? :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop for: Scales

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Cyborgs and human augmentation
( 1 2 all )
trendalM 2,131 20 05/10/05 07:50 AM
by Swami
* dances with traffic cyborgs.. part 2
( 1 2 all )
Dogomush 1,797 37 05/20/03 02:14 PM
by Anonymous
* What is it to be human?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Lakefingers 2,821 70 04/19/09 05:09 PM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* All technology should be abolished: (moved from Information Gap)
( 1 2 all )
Lakefingers 4,273 27 06/05/07 03:41 AM
by Lakefingers
* could science lead to the end of the human race?
( 1 2 all )
nalyudi 2,367 36 03/07/08 01:57 AM
by nalyudi
* Can technology fix the problems technology created upupup 1,131 19 12/13/02 11:51 PM
by Floydian
* Dismayed with the world and ashamed to be human
( 1 2 3 all )
MOTH 2,889 58 08/25/08 06:32 PM
by thedudenj
* Human Beings And The Fourth Dimension
( 1 2 all )
fireworks_godS 2,873 25 09/22/06 10:31 AM
by Fractalated

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
2,555 topic views. 3 members, 4 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Gaiana.nl
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.073 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 16 queries.