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InvisibleDrunkenCowgirl
Don't Fear theReaper

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 177
Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Silversoul]
    #3823246 - 02/23/05 04:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ya got me Paradigm, though I really don't view having made up my mind on an issue being close minded I view it as being decisive and and commanding over my body.

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InvisibleMOTH
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Registered: 06/06/03
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Silversoul]
    #3823274 - 02/23/05 04:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Nice points Paradigm! But there is no way I am going to get myself ensnared in the abortion arguement. I will say this:

What is right for one person, is wrong for another. It really all depends on where you are standing.

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InvisibleHendostan
I'm a teapot

Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,444
Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: MOTH]
    #3823302 - 02/23/05 04:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:
And then the question comes: whose rights are more important?

It's all a matter of priority.




one life is not more important than another, no matter how you look at it or how semantics are thrown around about it. you can't prioritize existence. us shroomers, or anyone who has had an ego disolving experience should be able to see this clearly. nobody's rights are more important than anybody else's. if it were me in this girl's shoes, adoption seems the best road, as i think it is in most cases. there are many many many loving parents who would give this child a chance at a good life. that's how i see it. i'm not trying to tear down anyone else's views.

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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: MOTH]
    #3823326 - 02/23/05 04:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Abortion is a very important issue, and is an archtypal example of the deep divide between those who want to control others and those who dont. Perhaps my view is a little off, but I see the struggle over abortion as a proxy for the struggle to keep the lines between genders strong and clear. Todays pro-life folks are the same people who would of been against the amendment allowing women to vote, who try and make laws against homosexuality, sodomy, pre-marital sex, and sex toys, etc. Since, in their narrow worldview, women should be mothers, anything that prevents this is bad to them. This is why anti-abortion folks are almost universally drawn from the same group of people who are against teaching birth control. They don't want less abortions, they want more mothers, because women who are mothers are easier to control, and fit better in their worldview.

In one sort of way, I have no stake in the abortion debate. I'm gay, and have 0 chance of being involved in one in any way. In another sort of way, it's a huge issue for me, because it pits a cause I am friendly with (blurring the distinction between genders) against one I am not. The pro-life people are the same ones who are anti-gay, and the root of both these positions is a desire to see strong differences between genders, enforced by government action.

I see the pro-life people as childish. "Whaaa all this time I was a virgin and that person had sex and didn't have to suffer through pregnancy for it. Proxy parental figure (i.e. government) it isn't fair! Whaaaah Whaaa! Sex should be as fucked up as my religion thinks it is, it's not fair if other people can have it and control the results."

Women, do not let these pro-life fucks into your head. If you need an abortion, get one. A fetus is not alive or aware. You are not a bad person if you need to get one. You will undoubtedly struggle with the decision, but do not let other peoples religion unduely influence this. If you need or have had an abortion, do not feel guilty for it. Realize that these people want to stop you from having and enjoying sex, and limit you to the type of life their male-dominated religions say you should lead. Fuck them. Your body belongs to only you. Anything you choose freely to do is OK. If you are confronted by a pro-life person at an abortion clinic, they will try and make you feel like you are killing another human being by choosing to have an abortion. This is not true. Do not argue with them, you have no need to do so. If you need to, get a person to escort you. Ask the clinic if they have volunteer escorts, if not, call around to local gay volunteer groups and ask them to help (lots of gay men feel as I do about abortion and help keep clinics running smoothly, even though they have little vested in the debate). When a woman visits an abortion clinic, she is already in an extremely vunerable state of mind. Besides the hormonal changes from pregnancy, there are emotional and intellectual debates going on in your head, anxiety, etc. It is in this weakened state that the right wing pro lifers often try to argue with the pregnant woman. Even if a woman seeking an abortion wanted to argue with these scumfucks, an abortion clinic entrance is not a good situation to do it. You have no obligation to engage the right wing abortion rhetoric, and if you need help to have to avoid it, that help is out there.

A clump of cells in your womb is not a person, any more then a mustard seed is a tree. You do not think about how many flowers you killed each time you eat sunflower seeds.

It's not a question of balancing rights. I think most people who argue about abortion sort of accept the right wing talking points that a fetus is a person, or that abortion has negative moral value by itself. But these are just that, talking points. We should not endorse these talking points by implicitly allowing them and then arguing for abortion rights on choice grounds. Rather, we should attack the talking points. It is not an issue of balancing the rights of a fetus against those of the mother, the only rights involved are those of the mother. Fetuses have no rights just like tonsils or appendixes have no rights. The issue in the abortion debate is cultural, not moral, and never forget it.

(EDITS: More ranting)


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"I am eternally free"

Edited by tomk (02/23/05 04:55 PM)

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InvisibleMOTH
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Posts: 23,431
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Hendostan]
    #3823344 - 02/23/05 04:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hendostan said:
Quote:

EllemyshShade said:
And then the question comes:  whose rights are more important? 

It's all a matter of priority.




one life is not more important than another, no matter how you look at it or how semantics are thrown around about it. you can't prioritize existence. us shroomers, or anyone who has had an ego disolving experience should be able to see this clearly. nobody's rights are more important than anybody else's. if it were me in this girl's shoes, adoption seems the best road, as i think it is in most cases. there are many many many loving parents who would give this child a chance at a good life. that's how i see it. i'm not trying to tear down anyone else's views.




Okay dude, but you have to realize that NOT EVERYONE (including young women) feel the same way. 

You shouldn't put "shroomers" or anyone else up there as sort of an elitist judge of human morality.  How is that any worse then what fundie Christians do?  Nobody "knows better" then anyone else.  That's why the abortion issue is so touchy because everyone believes that they do know better when everyone is looking at the issue from a different vantage point. 

You may believe that having it a "matter of priority" between a life and a life is abhorrant, but guess what...it's how people think!  Some people don't even consider a fetus a life. 

Nobody, including shroomers who have had an ego-dissolving experience, is the exclusive judge on morality. 

Personally, I feel abortions are wrong.  I feel all life is sacred. I would never have one for myself, in MY life.  But I can't make that decision for other people.  If I was Vulture's girl, in her situation, I probably would have one.  But it's not for me, and she can make her own choice even if I don't agree.

Quote:

you can't prioritize existence.




Nature does.  You do it all the time, every time you eat a meal.  Vegetarian or meat-eater?  It happens all the time in nature.  I watched a show last night in which a male lion devoured his own cubs. 

Should we behave like animals?  No.  We have been prioritized to have consciousness.  We have a choice. 




okay now...no more of this thread for me.  :stoned:

Edited by EllemyshShade (02/23/05 04:52 PM)

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Invisiblemantis
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Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 5,235
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: MOTH]
    #3823404 - 02/23/05 04:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In my experience, a fetus is a really shitty debater. I'd like to know why people think a fetus deserves equal rights as a fully developed human. It's not conscious, it's not able to live on its own and it's certainly not going to give anyone a strong argument for why it wants to live.

Abortion is as if the kid never existed, it's never aware of what happened... it's the mom who has to live with the guilt the rest of her life.


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InvisibleHendostan
I'm a teapot

Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,444
Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: MOTH]
    #3823410 - 02/23/05 04:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

woah, i think i was taken completely wrong. i apologize. i'm not going to argue this any more, since i mostly agree with you

Peace

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Invisiblemantis
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Hendostan]
    #3823430 - 02/23/05 04:59 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hendostan said:
one life is not more important than another, no matter how you look at it or how semantics are thrown around about it. you can't prioritize existence. us shroomers, or anyone who has had an ego disolving experience should be able to see this clearly.



Well, I'm an avid shroomer and I place the rights of a mother above a fetus. A shroomer should know that everyone has a different perception of reality and not every one of us is like-minded :grin:


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OfflineVulture
Pursuer ofWisdom
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Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 3,546
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Hendostan]
    #3823454 - 02/23/05 05:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

thanks for all the support guys

only thing i see wrong with adoption...is i know the kid isnt going to want to live in a institution its whole life...and if it does have a home that good...you tkae a chance witht he whole thing.

right now its in the first trimester too...i say go for it...but this is her diecision and not mine. I just pray for her.

much love to you all :heartpump:


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Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: tomk]
    #3823545 - 02/23/05 05:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

tomk: You make very few actual arguments in your post, but rather indulge in stereotypes, overgeneralizations, and ad hominems. In the interest of saving time, I'll quote them all at once, rather than addressing each separate one:

Quote:

  • Todays pro-life folks are the same people who would of been against the amendment allowing women to vote, who try and make laws against homosexuality, sodomy, pre-marital sex, and sex toys, etc. Since, in their narrow worldview, women should be mothers, anything that prevents this is bad to them. This is why anti-abortion folks are almost universally drawn from the same group of people who are against teaching birth control. They don't want less abortions, they want more mothers, because women who are mothers are easier to control, and fit better in their worldview.

  • The pro-life people are the same ones who are anti-gay, and the root of both these positions is a desire to see strong differences between genders, enforced by government action.

  • I see the pro-life people as childish. "Whaaa all this time I was a virgin and that person had sex and didn't have to suffer through pregnancy for it. Proxy parental figure (i.e. government) it isn't fair! Whaaaah Whaaa! Sex should be as fucked up as my religion thinks it is, it's not fair if other people can have it and control the results."

  • Realize that these people want to stop you from having and enjoying sex, and limit you to the type of life their male-dominated religions say you should lead.




None of these arguments actually addresses any of the arguments made by pro-lifers. They are simply stereotypes of pro-lifers based on your perceptions. Pro-lifers believe that a fetus is a human life that deserves protection. Whether or not they are right in claiming this, it has nothing to do with being against women, sex, or gays. The fact that some pro-lifers may also happen to hold such beliefs is irrelevant, and it is immature of you to use that as an argument against them.

Quote:

You will undoubtedly struggle with the decision, but do not let other peoples religion unduely influence this.



One need not be religious to believe that a fetus has a right to life.

Quote:

A clump of cells in your womb is not a person, any more then a mustard seed is a tree.



An 80-year-old is just as much a clump of cells as a fetus.

Quote:

You do not think about how many flowers you killed each time you eat sunflower seeds.



I don't know about you, but I have no problem killing a flower for food.

Quote:

It's not a question of balancing rights. I think most people who argue about abortion sort of accept the right wing talking points that a fetus is a person, or that abortion has negative moral value by itself. But these are just that, talking points. We should not endorse these talking points by implicitly allowing them and then arguing for abortion rights on choice grounds. Rather, we should attack the talking points.



You have hardly addressed a single talking point. You have instead chosen to indulge in stereotypes and ad hominems.

Quote:

It is not an issue of balancing the rights of a fetus against those of the mother, the only rights involved are those of the mother. Fetuses have no rights just like tonsils or appendixes have no rights.



Highly debatable. Some say that animals have rights. If that's true, then it could be reasonably argued that a fetus has rights.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: mantis]
    #3823569 - 02/23/05 05:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mantis said:
In my experience, a fetus is a really shitty debater. I'd like to know why people think a fetus deserves equal rights as a fully developed human. It's not conscious, it's not able to live on its own and it's certainly not going to give anyone a strong argument for why it wants to live.



Actually, my understanding is that a fetus becomes conscious about 90 days after conception, around the time the pineal gland develops and gender becomes apparent.


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Silversoul]
    #3823578 - 02/23/05 05:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If a fetus is aware then how come I can't remember anything up until 2 or 3 years old? Perhaps my idea of conscious is different from the medical/psychological definition.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Registered: 06/06/03
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Silversoul]
    #3823589 - 02/23/05 05:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

mantis said:
In my experience, a fetus is a really shitty debater. I'd like to know why people think a fetus deserves equal rights as a fully developed human. It's not conscious, it's not able to live on its own and it's certainly not going to give anyone a strong argument for why it wants to live.



Actually, my understanding is that a fetus becomes conscious about 90 days after conception, around the time the pineal gland develops and gender becomes apparent.




I thought it was 49 days that the pineal gland develops and gender develops, although I could be wrong. I got that from Strassman's "DMT- The Spirit Molecule."

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OfflineToTheSummit
peregrinus
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Vulture]
    #3823612 - 02/23/05 05:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Vulture said:
i dont want this to turn into a abortion debate



Too late...


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You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: mantis]
    #3823614 - 02/23/05 05:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mantis said:
If a fetus is aware then how come I can't remember anything up until 2 or 3 years old? Perhaps my idea of conscious is different from the medical/psychological definition.



Awareness and memory are not the same thing. I don't remember what I was doing a year ago today, but I'm pretty sure I was aware.


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OfflineKristiMidocean
fattie whale
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Silversoul]
    #3823616 - 02/23/05 05:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

here away to look at: I have a two year old daughter and I love her to death! and wouldnt give her back for the world.....But.. I see her every other weekend and every wensday night go back and forth to her daddys house and everytime she is hurt that she cant see daddy longer.... When she sees her dad and I together she gets soo excited but when we leave each other she becomes very sad...... I think that it is very selfish of me and any other person to want to bring a child into that... granted we dont plan for that to happen but unless you are 100000000% sure that you are going to die with the person then dont get pregnant. I watched my daughter hurt and it breaks my heart why would you want to bring a child into that and see them hurt??? People dont have abortions to not go through pain of child birth because an abortion hurts too...... but if you arent ready and dont know if you are going to be with the person for the rest of your life dont put a child through the pain of not having a full family.......its selfish of you to think of yourself


--------------------
:smile: I live for LNC :smile:

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: MOTH]
    #3823619 - 02/23/05 05:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

mantis said:
In my experience, a fetus is a really shitty debater. I'd like to know why people think a fetus deserves equal rights as a fully developed human. It's not conscious, it's not able to live on its own and it's certainly not going to give anyone a strong argument for why it wants to live.



Actually, my understanding is that a fetus becomes conscious about 90 days after conception, around the time the pineal gland develops and gender becomes apparent.




I thought it was 49 days that the pineal gland develops and gender develops, although I could be wrong. I got that from Strassman's "DMT- The Spirit Molecule."



You're probably right. I didn't remember the exact number of days.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: KristiMidocean]
    #3823631 - 02/23/05 05:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KristiMidocean said:
here away to look at: I have a two year old daughter and I love her to death! and wouldnt give her back for the world.....But.. I see her every other weekend and every wensday night go back and forth to her daddys house and everytime she is hurt that she cant see daddy longer.... When she sees her dad and I together she gets soo excited but when we leave each other she becomes very sad...... I think that it is very selfish of me and any other person to want to bring a child into that... granted we dont plan for that to happen but unless you are 100000000% sure that you are going to die with the person then dont get pregnant. I watched my daughter hurt and it breaks my heart why would you want to bring a child into that and see them hurt??? People dont have abortions to not go through pain of child birth because an abortion hurts too...... but if you arent ready and dont know if you are going to be with the person for the rest of your life dont put a child through the pain of not having a full family.......its selfish of you to think of yourself



All of this can be solved with another word beginning with the letter a: adoption.


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: Silversoul]
    #3823645 - 02/23/05 05:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Paradigm -

Pro-lifers do not make arguments, they make talking points crafted by the same sort of ad agencies that make the commercials that cause overconsumption. A person who argues would do things like define terms precisely, etc. A person trying to make an emotional appeal would do things like define things vaguely so that whoever hears it can fill most of it in. "double your pleasure" is a great slogan because it's going to mean a different thing to each person, so anyone who hears it things something about the gum. Likewise, "Right to life" means something person to each person who hears it. My point was not to make factual arguments, my point was to turn the techniques

A note on ad-hominems is in order. In order to commit an ad-hominem fallacy, the personal attack must be irrelevant. "Tomks argument against abortion is wrong because he is a goatfucking scumbag" would commit the ad hominem fallacy, while "Tomks argument about goatfucking is biased because he is a goatfucking scumbag" does not commit an ad hominem fallacy even though it has an ad hominem attack in it. I think my ad hominem attacks were of the second sort, where the personal attack is relevant to the issue.

Further, women who are dealing with abortions are not necessarily the same group prepared to articulately break down arguments and address premises, etc. You say I don't address the arguments of pro-lifers. I say pro-lifers don't have arguments, and instead have talking points designed to create confusion and create doubt. If I engage a prolife talking point, even if I beat it, I will have helped the pro life fucks because not everyone can follow formal argument, and, being confused, the audience would thing there is something to each side. This is a standard right wing technique. You can see it in the debate over Intellegent design vs evolution. The ID people win every time an evolution believer argues with them because engaging them creates the appearance their ideas are at least on an equal field. Of course I don't address the rights talking points, addressing them gives them the appearance of legitimacy they crave.

I think you see the issue as two sides concerned with logic, etc, arguing over what the right thing to do. I don't. I see it as one side using advertising techniques to create the appearance of debate, so they can sell their product (pro-life talking points) to their market (those who are afraid of breaking gender roles), and achieve their desired result (greater control of society and increased control of peoples modes of living and expression). I stand by what I wrote.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"

Edited by tomk (02/23/05 05:53 PM)

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OfflineKristiMidocean
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Re: She is officialy pregant! [Re: tomk]
    #3823685 - 02/23/05 05:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i know a lot of adopted kids and they hate there life because they feel hurt that their parents dont want them..... also I know from being a mom myself that once you feel that baby inside you move you fall in love. I would think that it would be near impossible to give up your own child that you have bonded with for 9 months.....


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:smile: I live for LNC :smile:

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