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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3858115 - 03/02/05 04:01 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

If you have no memory of your previous lives, what can it mean to you? It may as well not exist.

Yes, but you seemed to include current lives in that. How is my current live rendered meaningless? And they do mean something as the past lives provide the foundation for the current one. If they didn't exist I wouldn't exist, at least not as I am today. That means a lot!

And keeps the poor in their place, making them believe things will be better in the next life, hence the removed focus of this life.

Not at all. Unless a person continually makes spiritual advancements there is no guarantee he will have a better life next time. This is known as karma and goes hand-in-hand with the concept of reincarnation. Also mistreating the poor will result in bad karma in the next life, possibly even reincarnation birth into poverty.

You are making HUGE leaps..saying just because someone believes in reincarnation they also must believe such-and-such. That just IS NOT true and you haven't even attempted to show why you make such leaps.

Reincarnation is not corrupt, it is a beautiful belief that puts each individual in control of his own destiny. Of course, ANY belief can be used to control the masses! That does not mean the concept itself is flawed, just that people are flawed.

Any concept that promises something beyond the grave will take the focus of this life.

Another unfounded statement. One thing doesn't necessarily follow the other!

'You' are constantly changing, so the 'you' that dies will not be the 'you' that is born again.

Yep. Pretty cool huh?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: zorbman]
    #3858393 - 03/02/05 04:47 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I'm flying (incarnating) though Me's at an almost "uncomfortable" paste, in lack of other words.. :P

oh well, good night.. this being, influenced, serves better of in dreamland :wink:


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Invisiblewishcouldeletethis
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? *DELETED* [Re: Gomp]
    #3858473 - 03/02/05 05:03 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #3858505 - 03/02/05 05:09 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Reincarnation is not a religion.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Invisiblewishcouldeletethis
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? *DELETED* [Re: zorbman]
    #3858529 - 03/02/05 05:13 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #3858567 - 03/02/05 05:18 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Nope.

re?li?gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
---------------------------------------------------
Reincarnation is a component of many religions, but is not a religion in and of itself.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Invisiblewishcouldeletethis
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? *DELETED* [Re: zorbman]
    #3858645 - 03/02/05 05:32 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

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Edited by wishcouldeletethis (03/02/05 05:33 PM)

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #3858801 - 03/02/05 05:57 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Okay okay. I admit it. I'm a high priest in the religion of Reincarnation.    :rolleyes:

Again, there is no such religion as reincarnation! It is one facet of several religions not the religion itself. And how do I use it as a crutch?? You don't know me or how I apply this belief in my life. That is extremely condescending. One can have a belief without using it as a crutch. Reincarnation is the polar opposite of a crutch because the only thing you have to rely on ultimately is how you treat others. You and ONLY YOU are responsible for your circumstances. How is that a crutch?

Just because I'm arguing for something does not make it a religion! If I try to get you to believe in existentialism does that make it a religion? Of course not, it's a philosophy. If I argue in favor of baking a cake does that make me the High Priest of the Cake religion?

Nice try, but reincarnation is neither a religion nor a crutch. I think you should examine why you are so determined to affix a negative label to it. Could it be that you don't want to be bothered to consider it honestly, you just want to place it on your mental shelf and forget about it so you can avoid thinking about it?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Invisiblewishcouldeletethis
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? *DELETED* [Re: zorbman]
    #3858844 - 03/02/05 06:00 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #3858868 - 03/02/05 06:03 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

puritybinge said:
reincarnation would suggest a spirit correct? i dont believe in spirit, or souls, and there is no evidence of such scientifically




Just because something cant be proved scientifically (yet) dosent mean it cant be true.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #3858887 - 03/02/05 06:07 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I love how you gave all of three minutes max to considering what I had to say without even attempting to answer any of my questions. I tried to answer your questions and dealt with you respectfully. It's clear that discussing this issue with you further is pointless.

Anyone here want to tackle this subject in a serious way?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: niteowl]
    #3858892 - 03/02/05 06:07 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

puritybinge said:
reincarnation would suggest a spirit correct? i dont believe in spirit, or souls, and there is no evidence of such scientifically




Just because something cant be proved scientifically (yet) dosent mean it cant be true.



True, but it can't be proven, so any belief in it is pure speculation.


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Invisiblewishcouldeletethis
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? *DELETED* [Re: Silversoul]
    #3858976 - 03/02/05 06:23 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #3858985 - 03/02/05 06:25 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

i just like arguing, plain and simple.

I can't take you seriously.

Next.


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: zorbman]
    #3859093 - 03/02/05 06:47 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)


Yes, but you seemed to include current lives in that. How is my current live rendered meaningless? And they do mean something as the past lives provide the foundation for the current one. If they didn't exist I wouldn't exist, at least not as I am today. That means a lot!

Your current life will be meaningless to you in your next life. Think of anything that isn't you; a tree, grass, a flower, a catholic in Rome, what would you mean to them? They have no memory of you, and so you would mean as much to them as you will mean to yourself in your supposed next life.

You accuse me of making big leaps when you make a huge one here yourself. How would you know your past lives have built the foundation for your current one if you can't prove you had past lives?

Not at all. Unless a person continually makes spiritual advancements there is no guarantee he will have a better life next time. This is known as karma and goes hand-in-hand with the concept of reincarnation. Also mistreating the poor will result in bad karma in the next life, possibly even reincarnation birth into poverty.

That is known as the degenerated version of karma, one used to take the focus of this life. 'Oh no, I mustn't do anything bad in this life or I'll end up in poverty the next'. Karma was never meant to mean that. All it means in sanskrit is 'Your Doing', and that's all it means. 'Your conditioning' is a more accurate interpretation of karma.

Another unfounded statement. One thing doesn't necessarily follow the other!

Go back and have a look at Clones response in this thread. If you can't finish everything in this life, don't worry, you'll finish it in the next. That's taking the focus of this life.

Yep. Pretty cool huh?

Saying 'you' in the next life will not be the same as 'you' this life just confirms its pointlessness. You may as well be dead as 'you' as you are now, aren't there anymore.

You can say that we are continually dying and being reborn but most people don't see themselves that way. We think 'I' am fixed and will go on and on into the next life. This illusion of a permanent self is caused by our memories. But what happens when we take those memories away (which will happen when our bodies physically die)? There isn't anything there to continue.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3859232 - 03/02/05 07:14 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Your current life will be meaningless to you in your next life. Think of anything that isn't you; a tree, grass, a flower, a catholic in Rome, what would you mean to them?

If I grew into another form then the future me would be a continuation of my current self and it would exist not in the present (like your examples) but in the future. What I call "me" is a continuation of who I was when I was a child who was very important since he set the stage for who I am today. My physical form has changed over the years of course, but I am still me.

That is known as the degenerated version of karma, one used to take the focus of this life. 'Oh no, I mustn't do anything bad in this life or I'll end up in poverty the next'. Karma was never meant to mean that. All it means in sanskrit is 'Your Doing', and that's all it means. 'Your conditioning' is a more accurate interpretation of karma.

There is nothing even slightly degenerate about it. And there is nothing to "use" it for. It is merely the Law of Cause and Effect. Fate in Sanskrit is called karma, meaning the rhythm of past actions.

Reincarnation in no way takes the focus off of this life as you continually state; To the contrary, it gives life added meaning by placing it into an eternal context where one's actions have deep repercussions forever. Focusing on ones current life and believing in reincarnation are not mutually exclusive. That just doesn't follow and repeating it over and over will not make it so.


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: zorbman]
    #3859498 - 03/02/05 07:58 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

If I grew into another form then the future me would be a continuation of my current self and it would exist not in the present (like your examples) but in the future.

It doesn't matter if they exist in the future or present. What matters is they do not have a memory of you, just as you will have no memory of yourself in the next life. Because of that, you mean nothing to them just as you will mean nothing to you in your next life.

My physical form has changed over the years of course, but I am still me.

You still believe in the idea of a permanent unchanging self/soul. You're not addressing what you will think of yourself without your memories.

It is merely the Law of Cause and Effect.

Karma is not the law of cause and effect. Alan Watts made it very clear. It simply means 'your doing'.

To the contrary, it gives life added meaning by placing it into an eternal context where one's actions have deep repercussions forever.

If you have to think about the repercussions of you actions outside this life (your next life etc), then you are taking the focus away from your current life. It's pretty simple really.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3859635 - 03/02/05 08:29 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

you mean nothing to them just as you will mean nothing to you in your next life.

My past selves mean a great deal whether I remember them or not because their actions created me! If that isn't meaningful I don't know what is.

Karma is not the law of cause and effect.

It is indeed the Law of Cause and Effect as many great teachers througout history have pointed out. There are many resources available on the net to help you on this point.

If you have to think about the repercussions of you actions outside this life (your next life etc), then you are taking the focus away from your current life.

Not at all. Knowledge of reincarnation helps me greatly in my current life. I simply live my life as if everything I do will return to me eventually. This doesn't detract from the focus of my current life in the slightest. On the contrary, it shows me that I cannot escape the effects of my actions and allows me to focus more on what I'm doing in this life.

Contrast that with Christianity. You really are never held accountable because all your sins are unloaded onto Jesus. You can do whatever you want- you are forgiven and will get to Heaven no matter what. With reincarnation you can never escape the effects of your actions- not even after death! Earlier some ignorant person called that a "crutch". That's about as far from a crutch as I can imagine.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: zorbman]
    #3860729 - 03/03/05 12:27 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

My past selves mean a great deal whether I remember them or not because their actions created me! If that isn't meaningful I don't know what is.

You assume their actions created you. A leap of faith.

So your past lives mean something to you because you believe in reincarnation. What about your next life when you're a tree or some catholic and you don't believe in reincarnation? Is your life now going to mean anything to you then?

Without a way to carry your memories onto the next life, without some permanent self to carry, reincarnation whether true or not means jack. You still have avoided this problem of memories, as with the concept of an impermanent self.

It is indeed the Law of Cause and Effect as many great teachers througout history have pointed out. There are many resources available on the net to help you on this point.

A direct quote from the Alan Watts lecture Intellectual Yoga (right on the 5 min mark). 'Karma means action, and incidently that's all it means. It does not mean the law of cause and effect. When we say something happens to you is your karma, all it's saying is it is your own doing.'

I have read other definitions that state it is the law of cause and effect but I prefer Watts. Of the other definitions I've read, many say the idea of actions in this life being punished or rewarded in the next life is not taken seriously and seen as a misinterpretation by the west.

On the contrary, it shows me that I cannot escape the effects of my actions and allows me to focus more on what I'm doing in this life.

That's fine if you believe your actions will come back to you in this life, but as soon as you believe your actions will effect you in the next life you've lost it.

With reincarnation you can never escape the effects of your actions- not even after death!

Once again a leap of faith.

And why bring up christianity? I think it's safe to assume anyone still reading this thread doesn't take christianity seriously.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Reincarnation...do you believe in it? [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3860945 - 03/03/05 01:10 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Karma It does not mean the law of cause and effect.

That is false. Teachers throughout history agree. Alan Watts is clearly off track here (which is not unusual for him). Karma is simply the Law of Cause and Effect- every action has an equal and opposite reaction. This is exactly how karma operates. I can provide some links on karma if you'd like.

You still have avoided this problem of memories, as with the concept of an impermanent self.

How am I avoiding it? Reincarnation implies a permanent self that carries those memories. It's not a problem and I am not avoiding it in the slightest. I believe in that permanent self. I am that.

as soon as you believe your actions will effect you in the next life you've lost it.

Not at all. In fact I've gained a great deal. Knowledge of reincarnation and karma has helped me understand what lies behind the process of life and given me a greater appreciation for my life and that of others. Nothing negative has come out of it. When you gain perspective on things it clears up a great deal.

What about your next life when you're a tree

I don't think you have a real good understanding of what we're talking about here. Reincarnation has nothing to do with coming back as a bird or insect! One returns as a human being. What you're talking about is the belief in transmigration- that's related to an earlier, primitive doctrine and few now hold that view.

I have some resources on reincarnation if you would like to look through them to give you a better understanding of the subject.


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