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OfflineMycelium5150
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Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak.
    #3819587 - 02/22/05 11:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Just another item on the list of things that get blown out of proportion here. How many people here soak/ simmer there grain substrates for any amount of time before cooking. I believe that there is no need and that you will not see significantly better success rates by doing so. I have Never had a jar contam because i didn't soak. I believe Agar, Anno, and Workman (just to name a few or people you might look up to) don't soak.


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3819657 - 02/22/05 11:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

1) WBS: Good results simply by loading grain + water into jar, then PC'ing. No simmer or soak. Still, I prefer to soak and simmer WBS to get properly adjusted moisture content. Soaking is not a necessary preventative measure to kill contams when it comes to WBS, in my experience. Zero contams either method.

2) Rye: I always 24 hour soak rye, then simmer, then cook. Have yet to try just a load + cook. Unsure as to the soaking preventative effectiveness of rye, yet. Zero contams so far with soak, simmer and cook.

At the minimum, I still like to simmer everything regardless, it seems to increase how much water the said grains hold, which in turn can effect your yield/performance.


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OfflineMycelium5150
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Holydiver]
    #3819669 - 02/22/05 11:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

diver,
This is a good point. I havent used rye in a long time but my success rates with rye were still high without simmering but rye dose have a shit load of bacteria in it.


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OfflineKulTiVater
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3819771 - 02/23/05 12:04 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Now im a ammituer so im not to sure what the subject is about some im goin to try to speak on it im usin Corm medium have you heard much on that and what about the soaking process???


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OfflineDem_Bones
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3819783 - 02/23/05 12:06 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i simmer my rye till the water is all but gone off the bottom of the pot because i find it get perfect moisture content and more consistent product in the jar and less popped grains because there is not standing water in the bottom of each jar, in the pot is all so where i add all my additives like calcium ,yeast and vitamins because that get soaked up in to the grain and mixed evenly during the simmer

what is wbs? wheat berry seed ? i have seen it all over the site but not spelled out , this is not a dig just a suggestion to anyone who wants to help others in there post, the first time you use a term, spell it out that way the ignorant can self educate ,,then after that use the abbreviation.


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Edited by Dem_Bones (02/23/05 12:13 AM)


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Offlinelaughingbuddha
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3819797 - 02/23/05 12:09 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i have tried both methods (with rye) several times and the moisture content of the soaked & simmer jars was terrible--far too dry. way, way, WAY, too dry. of course, neither method has resulted in a colonized jar, which is why, for honesty and integrity's sake, i must admit that i am apparently an inept fool who merits no voice on this topic. nevertheless, i am a staunch supporter of the no-soak no-simmer, just-add-water-and-pc method. in five meticulously conducted attempts at soaking, simmering, and pc'ing rye, not one of the jars came out looking anywhere near moist enough, and not one of those jars ever developed a contam either--except a few that sat for 3 weeks and began to turn black. so alright, a few got contams. but the point is, the jars that i cooked up via the add water and pc method turned out to have the greatest and most viable water content of all. so the moral of the story: don't bother with the damn soaking and simmering. if endospores wreck your jar, oh well--adding water and pcing is so much quicker and easier, it's worth a few contams every 100 jars! just try it if you're skeptical.


verily, long live the cult of no-soakers and no-simmerers! let the streets run red with the blood of the soakers & simmerers! fatwa! jihad! crusade!


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OfflineDem_Bones
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3819909 - 02/23/05 12:26 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i don't simmer ti kill endo spores, i simmer because its faster and cleaner and more consistent , yest the simmer takes time but you can be cleaning you bath room during the same time , i use quart jars and i put 1 cup if dry rye in my pot for each jar then i fill with water till the water is just over the top of the rye( just like cooking rice) some times i have to add a bit of water because moister content varies in bags of rye , then after an 45 min to 1.5 hr all the water is just about gone and i turn off the heat and stir it real good after that all the water is gone, then a set out all my jars out (i do 28 at a time because my presser cooker holds 14 quart jars) at take a 16oz plastic cup and fill n dump , fill n dump very fast no real measuring is needed because the water is set so you cant get too much or too Little water at this point. and with that method there is no wast 1 cup of rye swells to fill a 16oz cup to the top so i have all my jars filled to 2/3 and no grain left over


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Dem_Bones]
    #3820048 - 02/23/05 12:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have always soaked and simmering is the only way to get the water content right for me. I've tried it without the simmer and just couldnt do it. I'd like to experiment without soaking though..

By the way, those like agar and such actually leave out the simmer, not the soak. They soak for water content.


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Invisiblegodfann1
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3820117 - 02/23/05 12:53 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I always do my grains the same. I just simmer for 20 mins,rinse, strain for 25 min, jar up and pc. Ive done that with wbs and wbs mixed with rye worked with both. I have only lost maybe 3 to 4 jars in the little over a year ive been growin and dont think that not soaking had anything to do with it.


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Offlineonetime
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: godfann1]
    #3820143 - 02/23/05 12:57 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i say do what works for you to each its own


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OfflineDem_Bones
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: godfann1]
    #3820168 - 02/23/05 01:01 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

what is wbs i asked a few post back but no repy wbs is use al over the site but i dont see it spelled out all the way anywhere:(

if i take a peace of rye grain from my simmer pot after only 20min and bite it in two the center will still be dry


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OfflineMycelium5150
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Dem_Bones]
    #3820200 - 02/23/05 01:04 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

its wicked bull shit, okay that was stupid. Wild bird seed


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Offlinetrippinpimp
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3820384 - 02/23/05 01:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mycelium5150 said:
its wicked bull shit, okay that was stupid. Wild bird seed


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: onetime]
    #3820707 - 02/23/05 03:02 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The reason people soak isn't for adding moisture to the grain. A PC alone can't kill endospores.

He he he...I tried to not be boring again but oh well here goes.

The definition of an endospore is an extremely heat-and chemical-resistant, dormant, thick-walled spore that develops within bacteria. Endospores are extraordinarily resistant to environmental stresses including heat, UV radiation, gamma radiation, chemical disinfectants, and desiccation. Endospores can remain viable for thousands of years or longer. An example of this are some endospores that were found on Dominican bees that had been encased in amber for 25 - 40 million years. These dormant structures can be found in several different types of bacteria: Bacillus, Clostridium, and Sporosarcina. I will be trying to isolate Bacillus in my experiment, and after isolation prove that it is indeed an endospore forming bacterium by getting it to transform into its dormant/ spore state.

Bacillus is a gram-positive aerobe that can be found in soil. It appears as straight rods 0.5 - 2.5 x 1.2 - 10 mm, and is chemoorganotrophic, which means that it gets its energy by oxidizing chemical compounds, and organic molecules are its electron source.

Here are some examples of spore forming bacteria out in the world: Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium botulinum (both anaerobes) are food poisoning microorganisms. C. perfringens commonly occurs in meats that have been heated (O2 depletion) and then slowly cooled. As these are ingested the cells sporulate in the intestine, producing an enterotoxin that causes symptoms of nausea, diarrhea, and abdominal cramps. C. botulinum is found on potatoes that are not heated sufficiently and cause the production of toxins. Bacillus cereus is another spore forming bacterium that also is found on starchy foods like rice. Its symptoms are similar to those of C. perfringens.

Microorganisms are also used in bioterrorism. One such spore forming bacterium is Bacillus anthracis which results in anthrax. This organism's endospores can survive for decades in animal products and soil. It can enter the body through cuts and abrasions (cutaneous anthrax), or by inhaling endospores (pulmonary anthrax). Symptoms resemble that of the flu, and if it invades the bloodstream the disease can be fatal.

Vancomycin is an antibiotic that is bactericidal for some forms of Bacillus and Clostridium, as well as other microorganisms. It works by binding to the D-alanine-D-alanine sequence so the peptide interbridge cannot be formed. This results in the formation of weak peptidoglycan which eventually leads to the cells lysing because of osmotic differences.

Sporulation is the process by which an active vegetative cell turns into its dormant spore state. This occurs because of a lack of nutrients, or because the cell was exposed to environmental stress. There are several steps to the process which are discussed below:
Formation of nuclear filament within the vegetative cell.
Cell membrane folds inward enclosing part of the DNA and forming the septum.
Continuation of the cell membrane to fold inward and engulf the immature spore.
Spore cortex is formed in the space between the two membranes.
A protein coat is developed around the cortex.
The spore continues to mature within the sporangium (mother cell).
Lysis of sporangium and release of spore.

For a spore to go back to its active vegetative cell state, it goes through a process called germination. Amino acids and sugars are two examples of the nutrients that can trigger germination. This involves the spore swelling, either the absorption or rupture of the spore coat, loss of heat/chemical resistance, the release of spore components, and increased metabolic activity. The third stage, outgrowth, follows germination. This involves the synthesis of new components, and emergence from the spore coat ready to develop into an active bacterium.


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Invisibledog
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3820745 - 02/23/05 03:11 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

My grain of choice is WBS (wild bird seed, got it?). I soak for 24-36 hours for moisture content; no simmer. This method works perfectly for me.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Magash]
    #3821090 - 02/23/05 08:35 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

That appears to be a definitive Yes in the question of whether to soak or not.


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OfflineXTCollection
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: cb9fl]
    #3821519 - 02/23/05 11:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well, in 10 years, they never have been a problem on mahhatma store bought brown rice. Ever.

But organic grains, for some reason or another, specifically barley, contam up. Never believed in soaking, but lost one of 36 jars to an endospore.

On the organic barley too.


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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3821597 - 02/23/05 12:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I am a no soaker person, "never" have been, and probably "never" will be. IMHO it only matters if you have that grain that has the vita coat crap on it. But that probably does not matter either.But I feel soaking could actually be why many newer growers doing grain exp contam problems so often. Too much moisture can be worse than not enough IMHO.
Nor do I simmer it first.
Sometimes the simpelist methods are the best! And that is not opinon  :wink:
Master water content of grain , cook it , inoc it asap , and have lots of fun sooner than most :thumbup: :cool:


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Offlinethenewguy05
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: tripndicular]
    #3821655 - 02/23/05 12:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

THE ONE TIME I USED RYE GRAINS... NO SIMMER AND NO SOAK I JUST LOADED THE JARS AND PRESSURE COOKED. NO CONTAMINATION(THANK THE SHROOM GODS AND MY PRESSURE COOKER) WATER CONTENT WAS PRETTY CONSISTANT.


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InvisibleNeedMoreSleep
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Re: Myth Busting!! To soak or not to soak. [Re: thenewguy05]
    #3821662 - 02/23/05 12:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

THATS AWESOME!!! watch your CAPS :wink:


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Agar, Brown Rice Flour, Pressure Cooker, Rye Grain, Toilet Paper, Wild Bird Seed

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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