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Anonymous
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 Re: Hydrapod test in progress  [Re: McMan]
#390897 - 09/10/01 11:50 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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You are making perfect sense!!! 100 percent. Directions should always be followed. Sorry I got you so off topic with my posting, sorry to Workman too.
Peace Teonan
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 rungi
journeymana
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 212
Last seen: 16 years, 23 days
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Re: Hydrapod test in progress [Re: ]
#393318 - 09/13/01 12:04 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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I used to wonder what caused mushrooms to fruit on agar and still do. I do not believe it is because it runs out of nutrients but because some starnge succession of breakdown of compounds caused be growing mycelium. I read that if a certain compound is introduced into the agar than mushrooms will fruit on the agar. (the mushroom resercher). Also according to this the succession of "enzyme excretions allows mushooms to grow in habitats full of contamintion. before contamination can take over musrhoom Myceilum the mycelium release other enzynmes than they go and grow while the contamination is working to the original enyzeme excreeted by growing mycelium. Of course there is no question about the speed of growth of mushooms once they pin to be controlled largley by temperture. From my own experiece of the homestead strain. i was growing them in terrarium on grain. Mushooms fruited at around 70 degrees taking 3 days to fully mature. the grain later became contaminated. I that cut out the fresh inoculated cowshit and waited keeping stable conditions, for as long as i had waited from the pinning initation until pinning started from the grain. I deccided to leave town. So i backed up put the terrarium in the van in headed west. This was a humid night in flordia around may. Don't know the exact tempature but close to 90 degrees in the terrerium the musrhooms grew within 8 hours when i had looked before leaving nothing.(looking with a magnifine glass) 8 hours later veil breaks sprores release. peace end violence evolve. the scientist is no philospher just works for them. there are no countries in reality. Sorry just watching tv.
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Anonymous
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Re: Hydrapod test in progress [Re: rungi]
#393363 - 09/13/01 12:58 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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It is the deprivation of nutrient availability. I was just giving an actual example with the invitro agar refrence. There are countless studies in many Fungal physiology books, certain mushrooms will not fruit until ALL the nutrients have been used, these are not observations, but scientific, reproducible facts. Of course various enzymes are probably envolved in the actual initiation of pins, but we were discussing the environmental trigger that stimulates the enzymes into activation.
As in plants it is the duration of the light/dark cycle that triggers flowering, but it is the elusive PHYTOCHROME that actually makes it happen at the enzymatic level.
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rungi
journeymana
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 212
Last seen: 16 years, 23 days
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Re: Hydrapod test in progress [Re: ]
#394220 - 09/14/01 11:16 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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I believe scientific reproductions are observations and that the word IS in reference to the reason for enzymes to trigger intitation because of deprivation is one single thing unattachable from the multiplicity of events that causes this. I am not a chemist, but belive most of chemisty is trial and error first and then once observed able to be replicated. The reason one may think that it is not the deprivation of nutrients is by the the observation of the wild cubensis growing cycle macroscopically. For example at certain times tempature seems to control not only the mycelium growth but also the other microclimatic. Is it by pure conincidence of certain nutrient depletions cause a shift simulataneious fruiting across and entire landscape. can you give a percentage. of the neccessity of nutrient depletion for mycelium to shift into reproduction. Some mushroom cultivated look totally different from there wild conterpart for example a speices of mushroom that is powdered growing wild and nakedno powder when cultivated. This of couse is related to the cubensis that produced no psilocybin by nutritional chemisty. or greater amounts of psilocybin by chemistry adding nutrients, or depleting nutrients of the medium. i am just not that confident on the deprivation theory. But if i see reproducabel in controled evidence how can i dobt. peace.
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 McMan
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/04/00
Posts: 661
Loc: USA
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: rungi]
#394249 - 09/14/01 11:54 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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Anonymous
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Re: Hydrapod test in progress [Re: McMan]
#394383 - 09/14/01 02:46 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have faith in McMann! (As I giggle and rub my hands together).
Leaf
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Anonymous
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Re: Hydrapod test in progress [Re: McMan]
#395085 - 09/15/01 12:02 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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Temperature drop relates to moisture content and relative humidity and this is the coincidence. Morels are cultivated on the concept I am arguing. Mycelium is completley deprived of nutrient base, to form sclerotia, in the abscense of nutrient, based on the nutrient they have already consumed. These sclerotia are fruited.
Cubensis is subtropical, and my arguments where based on
WARM WEATHER MUSHROOMS. Stametes as you know stated also that warm weather species do not conform to
Temperature induction. I stated that temperature plays an increased role in cold weather species. They will not fruit above or below a certain temperature range.
Cubensis on the other hand will fruit in a high CO2 environment, at hot temperatures. The only variable that can be left is NUTRIENT DEPRIVATION. Now strains within the species have higher and lower sensitivities to CO2 and Temperature, but as a whole, they will initiate pins invitro regardless of a temperature drop or high CO2, but only after they have used up the available nutrients, and have completed their colonization of the substrate. This my friends can only be linked to NUTIENT DEPRIVATION, because all other variables have remained constant.
You can call it coincidence, but it is reproducible, and would hold up in any Scientific Journal.
All of your quotes from stametes are related to COLD WEATHER SPECIES. And each and every quote relates Temperature in combination with OTHER signals. Not on it's own. My statement has isolated all triggers, the only thing that has changed is Nutrient Availability. My scientific study is sound and reproducible, it is not based on combinations of temperature and .......... Only on the lack of nutrient availability without other stimuli. I am not disagreeing with stametes, re read his books.
" Strains isolated from subtropical or tropical climates generally do not require a cold shock." Paul Stametes, GGMM.
If you want a concentration, well I am gonna need a Lab with some equipment.
Temperature is related to other environmental factors. When temperatures fall, it usually rained, and is followed by drier air, hence the evaporation rate is increased. All of these factors are crucial for maturation, but not neccesary for initiation in CUBENSIS.
Once the colony has been established, you can remove all nutrients, and the shrooms are still gonna grow up, they are not consuming nutrients, they are absorbing water. They are not like plants, and the mycelium is the roots. Once a substantial mass has been achieved, the size of the mushrooms is in relation to that quantity of mycelial mass. Because they are not growing more mycelium, the mushrooms are formed from the mycelium already present. The mycelium is woven by the hyphal knot into a pin, this pin swells with water. Water in the wild is associated with a decrease in temperature, and the following decrease in relative humidity. These factors mature the pins. If you are a mycelium growing in colder climates, you would want to fruit at colder temperatures, so that your mycelial mass could grow as large as possible before fruiting. The more mycelial mass the more fruits.
Subtropical shrooms have shorter life spans, they grow quickly, need very little if any rest, and they fruit when moisture is available, followed by a lower relative humidity. Even the latter is probably very insignificant, the relative humidity in the swelling mushroom is probably close to a 100 percent, so anything less in the air, will cause a gradient sufficient to expand the mushrooms. Cubensis is not Azurescens. There life cycle looks the same in a diagramn, but it is very different.
Pins form invitro on Nutrient agar after a sufficient amount of time has passed, to obtain enough mass, and to consume the majority of available nutrients. Nutrients are inside the agar, but the mycelium is not, it gets harder and harder to obtain the remaining nutrients, hence the deprivation, and subsequent pin set, regardless of lowered temperatures or CO2.
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Anonymous
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Re: Hydrapod test in progress [Re: ]
#395096 - 09/15/01 12:15 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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And MCMAN you should no better than anyone here that the Temperature drop is only introduced after the mycelium has completley colonized the substrate, not before.
Read between the lines, All the factors you are suggesting occur after nutrient deprivation has begun. This is the TIMING factor, he describes Advanced cultivators using.
And how you can continue to argue against the invitro pin test, is hard to understand. What other factor is in play? Temperature is constant, it's invitor so no air exchange is occuring, moisture is relatively constant. What other factor besides NUTRIENT DEPRIVATION?
I think you are not paying attention to that. I agree that a temperature drop is neccessary for initiating pins in a Temperate mushroom, but I am talking about NON- Temperate mushrooms. And I will still argue that the temperature drop in cold weather strains has more to do with slowing the ability of the mushroom to EAT it's unlimited nutrient base, so it has time to fruit, while other conditions, like moisture are present. Temperature has to have a role in this process, with the temperate species.
So yes you are absolutely right, when growing temperate species, once your mycelium has colonized it's substrate, you have to drop temperatures to get it to fruit.
But if you think you have to with cubensis, I don't think you have been listening, to me or Stametes.
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McMan
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/04/00
Posts: 661
Loc: USA
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
#395144 - 09/15/01 01:40 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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McMan
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/04/00
Posts: 661
Loc: USA
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: McMan]
#395146 - 09/15/01 01:43 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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rungi
journeymana
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 212
Last seen: 16 years, 23 days
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Re: Hydrapod test in progress [Re: McMan]
#395338 - 09/15/01 05:59 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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the mycelium must have dehydrated otherwise what would cause the mycelium to stop growing. cooler tempature may have nothing to do with them fruiting but the water took them out of hibernation which isnt to say that the nutrients werent depleted before the mycelium dehydrated.
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