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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3797231 - 02/18/05 05:57 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I was making a point, which clearly you missed.




such is the risk when one actually questions Anna. Alex123 would be proud.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3799865 - 02/18/05 06:54 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I am all for allowing dissent, freedom of speech, and conscientious objection to certain actions. But, I am still dismayed when I see people so readily attack the idea of patriotism. I like my country. I don't agree with everything that goes on in it and all that it does, yet I care about it and the people who reside in it. It seems to be chic nowadays to attack these feelings as "rabid nationalism", "idiotic patriotism", or "caveman tribalism". I think these automatic "I hate my country" knee-jerk reactions are immature and stupid.




Please don't misconstrue, I Don't "hate my country"...because i don't see it as MY country. Also, believe me there is no knee-jerking on my part here, I have thought things out pretty well. It really doesn't make too much sense to claim an identity based on such an arbitrary thing such as the country that you were coincidentally born into.

As far as caring about people in this county...why care about these people - Americans- when there are so many other people out there too...do you care about the innocent Iraqis, or how about the faceless Zimbabweans? Why are Americans so much better?

I am all for supporting freedoms, i just don't think that it is ANY country's prerogative to hand those out. Some would say such freedoms are "god given", the idea behind that is that they are naturally our rights... I agree with this. (not the god given part, as I'm an atheist(

IT is so interesting to me that people, not necessarily you but i just thought of this, define what freedom is by what the constitution says. The constitution is merely a tool to be used by the less powerful to keep the few powerful in line. Because for sure those few powerful will eventually try and reduce freedoms...huh...how interesting...revelation.

The constitution is set in place as a tool for the people to remind those few powerful that we have freedoms, in case/when the few want to take away those freedoms. I think way too many people think that the constitution defines freedom instead of being an indicator that we have freedom...it is unfortunate that people need reminders. Anyway, i just wanted to get that said...i will go write about that idea now...


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Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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Invisibletak
geo's henchman
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 3,774
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3800048 - 02/18/05 07:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

People should not be made to go to war. If they are patriotic enough to want to serve their country, let them. If their country is worth preserving by fighting, then people will join.

As for the poverty draft, it is a reality. I personally know a wide range of people in diffrent services, who's wealth greatly differs. Rich people will always serve, this is a fact. Just because they do, does not mean that the military does not target the poor. Money, and education are quite large incentive's for people who cannot picture themselves or their families leaving the local hellhole anytime soon.

I love my forfathers for founding such a wonderful country, it is just a shame that some of the primary principals of this nation have been destroyed in order to make money, and dominate the world.

It is a shame that the economy is so crazy, the rich getting richer, and the poor being driven into poverty by a consumer world. Rising living expenses, and diclining labor wages driving people out of their homes, giving them the option to fight for the people who did this to them, or end up in jail.

I love my country, and I do not wish for a drastic change. The picture I have in my mind is not of everyone sharing a little of everything, but alot of everything. Giving people a decent life will not mean the average joe giving up his or her hard earned lifestyle. It would mean the top 10% of the nation's wealthy would have a few less lear jets, and a family fortune a little under a world domination budget.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: tak]
    #3800174 - 02/18/05 07:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with you ninja. especially about if this nation is good enough to defend people will do it! Well said.


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3801141 - 02/18/05 10:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)


As far as caring about people in this county...why care about these people - Americans- when there are so many other people out there too...do you care about the innocent Iraqis, or how about the faceless Zimbabweans? Why are Americans so much better?

As an empathetic human being, I have concern for the condition of all people, regardless of nationality. But, I do feel a certain amount of allegiance to my fellow Americans that I do not feel with other people. These people are my friends, family, and countrymen. I feel a certain amount of extra loyalty and concern for these people that occupy the same land that I do. I view this feeling as natural and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Call me an idiotic tribalist or a brainwashed patriot if you will, but I have loyalty, concern, and dedication to America and Americans that I do not feel towards other people.


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3804154 - 02/19/05 06:56 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
As an empathetic human being, I have concern for the condition of all people, regardless of nationality. But, I do feel a certain amount of allegiance to my fellow Americans that I do not feel with other people. These people are my friends, family, and countrymen. I feel a certain amount of extra loyalty and concern for these people that occupy the same land that I do. I view this feeling as natural and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Call me an idiotic tribalist or a brainwashed patriot if you will, but I have loyalty, concern, and dedication to America and Americans that I do not feel towards other people.




That seems strange to me...especially since a lot of Americans are big asses (same with other people of other countries). Don't get me wrong, i understand loyalty to family and friends that is natural, since the provide for you...however loyalty to countryman/Americans...that's where it gets a little silly to me.

It is not tribal to hold loyalty to a group of 300 million people...that is a distortion of tribalism perhaps but is not tribalism. Tribalism would be the loyalty, respect, and care of people that are close to you, that provide and care for you, that you aid and who aid you in survival.

As far as empathy for humans, i understand that to a degree, but you bring it one step more when you say "especially to Americans". I really think you should ponder that a little bit more. What does my net door neighbor down here in Texas provide you that you feel more connected to him than you do to Yin, a young Chinese woman in china? Nothing...so why the special loyalty and care to Americans? They are on the whole, just as dumb, intelligent, heartless, caring, pretty, ugly...etc as any other person of any other country.

It is important to question ourselves... to not let ourselves resolve to answering questions with "just because" and just following what "feels good", or what "is right"... you know?


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3804203 - 02/19/05 07:23 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)


As far as empathy for humans, i understand that to a degree, but you bring it one step more when you say "especially to Americans". I really think you should ponder that a little bit more.

What does my net door neighbor down here in Texas provide you that you feel more connected to him than you do to Yin, a young Chinese woman in china? Nothing...so why the special loyalty

I share a language, a geographical area, basic culture, a basic value system, and a government with my fellow Americans. These are reasons why I feel a certain amount of allegiance and affinity for them.


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Offlineshroommachine
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Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 1,202
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3804956 - 02/19/05 10:57 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I voted for "FUCK THE DRAFT", But if we get hit with a biological weapon by Syria or Iran, prior to our invasion, It is likley my posision will change. I'm 18 so If there is a draft, I am very likley to be drafted.


--------------------
And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3804968 - 02/19/05 11:01 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

These similarities are arbitrary... why assign allegiance to something you had no choice in? If you are saying that you have most in common with Americans in some ways, than other people of different nations...then i guess so. But just because we are similar to someone else does not mean that allegiance should be assigned to them.

Also, the similarities that you mentioned are so...iffy. language- you speak English which is spoken in MANY countries. geographical area- what does this mean really? if you live in Maine you share a closer geographical area to Canadians than Californians. basic culture- America is known for its variation of culture so...you actually don't share too much basic culture with the rest of the Americans. unless of course you are referring to the western civilization type of culture and in that case, many many countries take part in this as well. Basic value system- no not really. i mean we all want to be free...but if you smoke pot or any such thing you are greatly opposed by your fellow Americans, also if you believe in god or don't you are pretty opposed there too. and finally government- a democracy? is that what you mean? because if that's so, that is many places as well...and if you mean simply the constitution...well then...i guess that would be the only one that works. not to be rude.


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3805140 - 02/19/05 11:44 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)


These similarities are arbitrary... why assign allegiance to something you had no choice in?

Because that is my choice.


But just because we are similar to someone else does not mean that allegiance should be assigned to them.

Of course it doesn't mean that it should be. I never said that my way of thinking should be required for everybody. It is how I feel however.


Also, the similarities that you mentioned are so...iffy. language- you speak English which is spoken in MANY countries. geographical area- what does this mean really? if you live in Maine you share a closer geographical area to Canadians than Californians.

By geographical area I mean an area confined within a well-established border. When a population lives under one government, they oftentimes deal with the same circumstances in their lives. This is one thing that adds to a feeling of comradery.


basic culture- America is known for its variation of culture so...you actually don't share too much basic culture with the rest of the Americans. unless of course you are referring to the western civilization type of culture and in that case

Whenever I travel somewhere, I can always tell when I am in America and when I am not in America(I have traveled to other countries). It is a feeling. The people are a little different and I notice it.


Basic value system- no not really. i mean we all want to be free...but if you smoke pot or any such thing you are greatly opposed by your fellow Americans,

I don't smoke pot. And just because you might hold one or two views that don't really fall into line with the majority, doesn't mean that your basic value system is different.


and finally government- a democracy? is that what you mean? because if that's so, that is many places as well

No, that is not what I mean. I and other Americans live under the same government. Because we live under the same legal entity, certain issues affect us equally.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3806112 - 02/20/05 09:11 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I doubt there'll be a draft, perhaps within a decade or so if everything keeps declining, but I can't see one within the next few years. And if there is, I'll put my dual citizenship to good use and get the fuck out of here if I'm chosen.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,849
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: tak]
    #3808110 - 02/20/05 07:50 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rich people will always serve, this is a fact. Just because they do, does not mean that the military does not target the poor. Money, and education are quite large incentive's for people who cannot picture themselves or their families leaving the local hellhole anytime soon.




You're looking at things backwards.

They are not directly targetting the poor.

The poor being a large part of military forces goes back.. thousands, and thousands of years.

What the military does is offer pay and rewards to any who sign up. The less you have, the more attractive that pay and those rewards become to you. The more attractive the payoff for signing up, the more likely you will sign up.

If I offered 5 bucks to someone to run to the store for me and buy something, chances are the person who would accept my offer would be the one for whom 5 bucks is more than what they would consider the time it would take them to complete the task, plus the trouble on their part, is worth.
And it's more likely that someone making minimum wage would be more likely to accept my offer than someone making $100,000 a month.. because 5 bucks is worth more to you the less money you have.

It's not that I was targetting the poorer of the two people with my offer -- 5 bucks was simply what I decided I could afford for the task, and the offer was more attractive the less money a person could make elsewhere.


And, just as has been done for thousands and thousands of years, the wealthy often enlist in the military not for the pay, but rather for the prestige. How many politicians served in the military? That's something that, just as the poor forming the majority of a fighting force, can be traced back all the way to Rome, the Chinese dynasties, man.. as far back as we can trace shit like that.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineAlobar
A Bucket of Lard

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 322
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3808471 - 02/20/05 09:14 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Just thought I'd say??this discussion between FreeLaws and RandalFlagg is darned good. Tell you what. Often wondered 'bout the same things m'self.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Alobar]
    #3809021 - 02/21/05 12:04 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I think the whole idea of a draft is wrong. If we need more people all we have to do is appeal to market forces and raise the wages.

I don't want to drive a supply truck in Iraq. Some patriots would drive a supply truck for free in honor of the motherland. God Bless them. Most of us would drive a supply truck for a million dollars. I would. Somewhere inbetween those two points is your supply curve, and for every incremental increase in wages you increase your supply of people willing to join the army.

The draft is a horrible idea. An all volunteer army is a better trained and much better motivated fighting force.

The people that claim we are going to have a draft are idiots. The people that claim that we are going to attack Iran are wrong. We are not going to have a draft, and we aren't about to attack Iran.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3810627 - 02/21/05 12:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

They'll have to start prinitng a lot more money!

Aren't army drivers and such over in Iraq already demoralised because their private Halliburton counterparts etc get many multiple times the money that army people get?


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