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 agar
old hand
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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 Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see.  [Re: shirley knott]
#4177229 - 05/15/05 03:56 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
shirley knott said:
nice tango! put me down for one of the free ones
I'm trying to go live with it ASAP. The Admin have a web site up (under construction), getting a banner made & all else required go live + accept CC orders.
Check your pm.
agar
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 Twister
Lucrative
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 6,672
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: VALIS]
#4179962 - 05/15/05 08:31 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
VALIS said:
It's all gonna be agar's fault. [ --edit-- he'll have been the most obvious/direct catalyst at least - actual fault will be due to the lame society and status quo we live under. --edit-- ]
Mushrooms are already easy enough to grow, so if spores were going to be illegal they already would be. Anyone with access to brown rice flower, vermiculite, jars, a stove, and spores can grow shrooms now. The only thing thats going to change is that it will be a slightly less complicated substrate preparation method.
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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: Twister]
#4181004 - 05/16/05 01:05 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Twister351 said:
The only thing thats going to change is that it will be a slightly less complicated substrate preparation method.
As far as I can gleen from what agar's saying, there will be ZERO substrate preparation involved, in addition to obviating the need of any sterile technique, all this will be done with a prefab container that basically just needs to be inoculated and hydrated. And it'll be cheap. Like he said, something along the lines of a ChiaPet sort of thing, but for Shrooms.
The PF tek and Poor Man's Pod's were one thing -- but this sounds to me like basically a shake'n'bake package, for magic mushrooms.
Whatever, I'm just saying that I think it's possible that this will sooner than later end up somehow negetively affecting current spore laws in the US... that's all.
Doom.
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Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
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IGnosticAbhorI
Stranger-er
Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 4,899
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: VALIS]
#4181128 - 05/16/05 01:58 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Agar's experiment is very $$$, and it's his idea, Why shouldn't he be compensated?
The IDEA is to make it simplistic so that anyone can do it, allowing anyone to be able to experience hoe Awesome it can be to grow mushies...As this is a good thing....it also is a bad thing...
But I see what you're saying Valis, I don't Disagree in any way...I'm pretty sure that if you can make something so easy, it'll get banned/outlawed...
But it wouldn't cost much to get mushies (if u pay for em)....Mainly due to the fact that Anyone can do it...
So yes, I kind of do fear that it will all become illegal, but let's be honest, America will do ANYTHING to stop drugs....Bush always yells about FREEDOM and such, yet we sign away so many freedoms that it's ludacris, But that's another topic 
Hopefully it won't come down to that *crosses fingers*
-Gnostic
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FirstAvailable
enthusiast
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 728
Last seen: 10 years, 9 days
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: VALIS]
#4181460 - 05/16/05 07:44 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
VALIS said:
Quote:
IGnosticAbhorI said:
Agar's trying to bring cult. into anyone's home
If that's what he was truly trying to do, then what's with the patent and the talk of selling to the large commercial ops?
No, I'm not being mean spirited or bitter towards agar ( I don't even know the guy ) -- but come on: "Agar's trying to bring cultivation into anyone's home." ...
Anyhow, as far the actual thread is concerned, I'm still wondering what the heck that is at the the bottom of that tray:
... looks like some sort of foam or something.
I believe that it was mentioned earlier that the thing in the bottom of the tray is an absorbent mat, similar to those you get packaged with the meat you buy at the grocery store. It is part of the tray.
Also, there is nothing wrong with patenting an idea. Patenting an idea does not mean you cant spread it all over, it just protects it, makes it officially yours, and keeps people from stealing it.
Think about what would happen if he didn't patent it. Some company would come in, patent it themselves, make lots of money, and then agar would be royally fucked. Not only would he be out all of the money he invested in developing the substrate, but he wouldn't even be legally allowed to use his own idea.
Not only that, but agar stated earlier that due to the nature of the substrate, it does not lend itself to home-cookery. He has stated that it would be cheaper for the consumer to purchase the stuff from him than making it in your home kitchen. It's called economies of scale. For uncommon ingredients and complex manufacture procedures, this holds true even more so.
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blackout
Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: FirstAvailable]
#4181927 - 05/16/05 11:24 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Exactly, he said the price will be comparable to grain. It costs a lot to make it due to the complex equipment. A farmer must pay for land, fertiliser, tractors, ploughs, harvestors etc but at the end of the day they sell you the grain far, far cheaper than you could make it yourself due to the economy of scale. There is no secret in growing grain but very few bother to grow their own, if agar did let the recipie/method be known I bet nobody here would be bothered trying to make it themselves either.
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psilocyben
bad guy
Registered: 12/03/04
Posts: 1,026
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: blackout]
#4182354 - 05/16/05 01:23 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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i had no idea this thread was still going.
congratulations, agarv
:envioussmiley:
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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
#4182484 - 05/16/05 02:07 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
IGnosticAbhorI said:
Agar's experiment is very $$$, and it's his idea, Why shouldn't he be compensated?
He should definitely be free to bring to market and to profit from his effort, work and ingenuity - no disagreement there. ( He could still do so without a patent, but of course that's entirely his choice. )
Quote:
But it wouldn't cost much to get mushies (if u pay for em)....Mainly due to the fact that Anyone can do it...
That's a good point, except for the potential counter-point that along with tightened spore laws, so may the punishments for possesion and distribution become even more severe. It won't happen immediately, it'll take some time - but not much.
Quote:
Bush always yells about FREEDOM and such, yet we sign away so many freedoms that it's ludacris, But that's another topic
It's not just Bush; that's been the behavior of every talking-head "president" that's ever been in office in this country, right from the very start - though the thick fog of propaganda and information-control very much obfuscates the fact. But you're right -- 'nuther topic altogether...
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Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: FirstAvailable]
#4182629 - 05/16/05 03:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FirstAvailable said:
I believe that it was mentioned earlier that the thing in the bottom of the tray is an absorbent mat, similar to those you get packaged with the meat you buy at the grocery store. It is part of the tray.
Ah - so it has no specific use? Just an artifact?
Quote:
Patenting an idea does not mean you cant spread it all over, it just protects it, makes it officially yours, and keeps people from stealing it.
I'm not convinced that an idea or process can be stolen, any more than evolution can be "stolen". Take one moment and look at nature, and you'll see alot of "stolen ideas".
Ideas form a major facet of human evolution. Using force to prevent evolution is crummy, to say the least.
Using an unjust, corrupt establishment ( government ) which employs a monopolized apparatus of force ( the law ) that prevents the evolution of ideas ( patents ) is highly unfortunate on many levels.
Regardless, agar is obviously in no way subject to my own personal worldview - for whatever it's worth: I wish him luck, and he has my respect regardless of what I think about patents or whatever.
Quote:
Think about what would happen if he didn't patent it. Some company would come in, patent it themselves, make lots of money, and then agar would be royally fucked. Not only would he be out all of the money he invested in developing the substrate, but he wouldn't even be legally allowed to use his own idea.
That's untrue - prior art would exist ( what with him being the first one to market and distribute the stuff ), no one else would be able to patent it.
By not applying for a patent, it would only mean that he wouldn't be leveraging the strong arm of the "law" and government to artificialy and unjustly prevent fair competition ( which is best for everybody, except agar ) or the natural process of refinement of his original idea by other parties ( again, which is a good thing to everyone but agar ).
Without a patent, agar would still be first to market - but he would have to continualy strive to maintain relevancy once the competition started sprouting up... better product and better prices - best for the hobby, best for the mushrooms, and best for everybody who enjoys either of the two.
Quote:
Not only that, but agar stated earlier that due to the nature of the substrate, it does not lend itself to home-cookery. He has stated that it would be cheaper for the consumer to purchase the stuff from him than making it in your home kitchen. It's called economies of scale. For uncommon ingredients and complex manufacture procedures, this holds true even more so.
Would you rather have one source of beer - controlled and manufactured and modified by a single entity - or would you prefer to have a wide selection from many different sources?
That's more of a point than an actual question.
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Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
Edited by VALIS (05/16/05 03:05 PM)
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agar
old hand
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: VALIS]
#4183922 - 05/16/05 07:41 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you were to invest a year of your off & on time & somewhere in the range of $70K, would you like to "lock in" at least getting your $$$$$ back.
Then add more than an equal amount to bring it into mass production, then add another $30K for the patent & other legal items.
I might add, there is a somewhat simular patented product available - out of Korea. It didn't change the world.
You must think "pussy" is FREE. When, in reality, MOST OFTEN, it is not. I'm sorry if this sounds offensive. I've had a few J/D & pepsi's & the J/D isn't FREE - EITHER.
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Edited by agar (05/16/05 07:51 PM)
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tahoe
Noob Slayer
Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 6,274
Loc: N38.93829W119.98108
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: agar]
#4184254 - 05/16/05 09:08 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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damn agar, jack and cokes=fat chics. For some reason jack loves the fatties.
Quick story for you. I was drinking jack at this bar in sacramento and this fat chic started hittin on me, im 6'4 so the fatties think i am into them, one thing led to another and i ended up going home with her. My friend was with us and he passed out on the couch. It was about 3 am and the moon lite was comin in through the window so i could see what was going on in her room. I went straight for the bed and laid down on my back hoping for a peter lickin and she started undressing. I could see her. She had pastey white skin and was all fat and had rolls. She looked like a giant queen termite. She sort of got some running start for the bed and as soon as she hit the bed "jack daniels" left the room and i jumped the fuck up and ran down stairs and woke my buddy up. I was sober all of a sudden and we were headed home.
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Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.
My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987
Teh=The
I need to proofread
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agar
old hand
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: tahoe]
#4184423 - 05/16/05 09:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dang........."giant queen termite".
Not a pretty picture  .
With a certain age - comes wisdom. That age is when "Dick" no longer over rides "Brain"...... no matter how much J/D you have in you.
I'm glad I'm that age.  
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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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 Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: agar]
#4184966 - 05/17/05 12:45 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said:
If you were to invest a year of your off & on time & somewhere in the range of $70K, would you like to "lock in" at least getting your $$$$$ back.
Depends on what my goals were when I set off on such a project and the nature of the process through which my investment was to be funded.
But man, doesn't it make you feel even just a little weird that it's the very same system you're using to 'protect' your future profits w/ this patent, that would completely ruin your whole life without hesitation the very moment it had a chance? And that it's this same system you're cooperating with and paying, for this patent, that's going to bust other innocents... for using the very stuff you've patented, to grow shrooms with??
I just don't get it.
I guess there's no real point in all my belly-aching here... I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions or actions, so I'll drop the subject if it's become uninteresting or redundant - main thing though I want to say is good work on all your efforts with this and I hope it all turns out to be a total positive. 
Beers!
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Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
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Liquidkick
H2O
Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 2,635
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: VALIS]
#4188241 - 05/17/05 06:22 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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EQ STrain?
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FirstAvailable
enthusiast
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 728
Last seen: 10 years, 9 days
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: VALIS]
#4190961 - 05/18/05 12:56 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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VALIS, I don?t think you fully understand how the patent system works. It does not stifle progress and new ideas, instead it helps the process along by protecting those that come up with the ideas that make progress possible, and supplying them with ideas to work off of.
Patents provide security to the people that come up with ideas. This fosters an environment conducive to more and more people coming up with more and more ideas, thus propelling progress even more.
In addition, the patent process allows for a historical record to be created and kept. This allows historians of the future to have a better understanding of our time, and historians of today to have a better understanding of the past. With a better understanding of the past, we are in a better position to progress into the future.
It also provides people with a reference to the ideas that have already been created. That way if a serious person comes up with something good, they can check if someone already came up with the idea. If they find that what they are thinking of has already been done, they can either improve upon it, or not waste their time and effort on something that has already been done and go on to something new. This makes for better management of ?mental? and material resources, since they are not as likely to be wasted on redundantly ?reinventing the wheel?.
Just because something gets patented, doesn?t mean other people can?t improve upon it. On the contrary. It makes it easier for people to analyze the product/idea, make improvements on it, patent those improvements, and continue the cycle.
Also, just because someone comes up with an idea first, and brings it to market first, doesn?t mean someone else can?t steal it away from them. This type of thing has happened all throughout history, and continues to this day. This is the reason the patent system was set up. To protect the people that come up with ideas, often they are not financially well off, from people with large bank rolls that would otherwise steal those ideas and hinder progress.
For example, contrary to popular belief, Alexander Gram Bell did not invent the telephone. He merely stole the idea from the German inventor who did. The German inventor (I forget his name) did not patent his invention. Bell blatantly stole the idea merely because he had more money, and now the true inventor does not get the credit he rightfully deserves for his revolutionary invention. There are many many more stories like this. Where average, every day people, come up with brilliant revolutionary ideas, don?t patent them, and then have them stolen by those in (financial) power. This is why it is so important to have a well functioning patent system, and for people to patent ideas they have worked hard on, and invested large amounts of time and/or money into.
As for paying money into the system that imprisons people for exercising their freedom?..
The patent system has nothing to do with the justice system. The money paid into the patent system, in the form of application fees, research fees, as well other forms, is used to keep the system going. There are many many people coming up with many many ideas, and keeping all of these ideas organized, archived, and available takes money. That is what you pay into when you apply for a patent. Not into the corrupt Orwellian government that you believe is after you, or after the people destined to use agar?s soon to be released (hopefully soon) substrate.
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blackout
Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: FirstAvailable]
#4191024 - 05/18/05 01:09 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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FirstAvailable- Great post.
It it wasn't for patents you wouldn't have many of the inventions out there today, why would people spend years of their life and their life savings developing an idea if it could be simply copied at the end of it leaving them penniless.
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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: FirstAvailable]
#4196217 - 05/19/05 03:07 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FirstAvailable said:
VALIS, I don?t think you fully understand how the patent system works. It does not stifle progress and new ideas, instead it helps the process along by protecting those that come up with the ideas that make progress possible, and supplying them with ideas to work off of.
You make many excellent arguments for those who would prefer to see the patent system under a positive light.
It's almost as if you've paraphrased from the official material.
There's much I'd like to respond to, but I'll let it go - lest this thread devolve into politics.
Quote:
Not into the corrupt Orwellian government that you believe is after you
No need to insult my intelligence ( or yours... ) with the same old tired "Orwellian" conspiracy strawman.
Anyhow, cheers!
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Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
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FirstAvailable
enthusiast
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 728
Last seen: 10 years, 9 days
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: agar]
#4196508 - 05/19/05 04:04 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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fair enough. If you wish to drop it, ill comply.
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: VALIS]
#4196548 - 05/19/05 04:17 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I can't believe I ignored this thread for weeks upon weeks, and then not even noticing it was started by agar.
I am absolutely astonished.
Agar, this is revolutionary work. Don't listen to some fools polluting this thread.  This is absolutely amazing, as revolutionary as the PF-tek, times a thousand. No, times ten-thousand. The best of luck with this wonderful project! I hope it makes you filthy rich, you deserve it.
I always knew the Shroomery was home to the best of'em, but you deserve the highest medal of Shroomery honor if this works out as you describe. In many years, a statute shall be built in your honor for this incredible work and determination in mycological study.
Congratulations!
edit:p.s. Pre-orders or orders, whenever you open the biz, I'll be ready for it 
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The answer to 1984 is 1776.
Edited by kake (05/19/05 10:01 PM)
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: 
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: Didn't pasturize, didn't sterilize & we will see. [Re: kake]
#4203285 - 05/21/05 12:06 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Funny Valis, they said the same thing to PF when he invented the PF Tek, and the shrooming comminutiy has grown INCREDIBLY since then...and still things are the way they are.
I dont know what will happen when this is released...but this is progress still and I am happy for it. It may be selfish...however even if spores become illegal, I dont think that will stop much of the mushroom community. Prints can still be easily mailed and traded, either way. Most of everything were doing is illegal at this point anyway, this may bring more attention to it, but Im hopful it wont be bad. Maybe it will even be the oppisite and this will cause mushrooms to spread and the idea of them to become more accepted, instead of less. I dont believe the only reason the shroomery is still around and spores are still legal, is because we are out of sight, or out of mind.
But we shall see what happens!
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