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InvisibleSilversoul
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Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now?
    #3795069 - 02/17/05 09:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I've hated his guts for the last 4 years, but now I'm not so sure anymore. I'm glad he's pushing for SS privatization, though I'm not too thrilled about how much it's gonna cost. I've heard he's also got plans for tax reform in the works, and might possibly try to replace the current tax structure with either a flat income tax or a national sales tax(land value tax would be my preference, but that just ain't gonna happen). It seems like after 4 years of ridiculous federal spending, he's finally starting to act like a conservative. Of course, I'm only conservative on economic issues, so I'm still very much opposed to his foreign policy, and his stance towards gay marriage, and I don't know if I'll ever forgive him for the Patriot Act(and its sequel). What do you think? Is he really changing for the better, or has he got something sneaky up his sleeve?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3795116 - 02/17/05 09:52 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

My affection for Bush has always been that I believe that HE believes what he says, more than most, and that he isn't a fucking dumbass scumsucking liberal who wants to take what is mine and give it to some loser who didn't even try.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3795169 - 02/17/05 10:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

How do i feel about Bush. The biggest crook ive ever seen. Most people credit him to being dumb, but he is not dumb. He is the most smart manipulating person ive ever seen besides Clinton. It scares the hell out of me. If youve ever read Orwell he talks about Freedom is Slavery and War is Peace. It scares me. By bringing war to the Iraqi people we will make it a more peaceful country even though Iraq has continued to downgrade in security.

In order to have true freedom we need to give up our basic constitutional rights. Civil rights have been slowly degrading over the past 8 presidents and things will only get worse. When the next terrorist attack hits United States which is only a matter of time now. The United States will face a problem they simply can not get themselves out of. In order to stop the terrorism, sedition laws will have to be passed to smash out dissidence of the government.

Its slowly starting to happen. We have the Minsitry of Truth(The Media) Who is directly correlating with the government. If they post something unfavorable they are rebuked for their statements, oh and of course people act like the United States will never have something happen like this.

The prison system will continue to flow with new inmates who in turn will make profits for prison contracting straight and directly out of the taxpayers pockets. The united states has finally achieved the goal of having more prisoners per capita than any other nation on earth. This is Frightening people. There is nothing you can do to stop this systematic slavery. The deception is so well in place that it would take nothing short of a revolution to stop it.

Soon the middle class will be the yoke of the government. In order for the government to fund its buearacracy it will ask more and more from middle class taxpayers till the middle class is whiped out. In every country that ever had its middle class repressed has always resulted in revolution historically speaking.

We have millions of people in the United States who distrust the police force. People who are supposed to enforce the law are now only their to throw people in prison.

This is a scary future my friends and it will be a taste of whats to come.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3795256 - 02/17/05 10:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)


he isn't a fucking dumbass scumsucking liberal who wants to take what is mine and give it to some loser who didn't even try.

Since Bush has been in office has he gotten rid of any income redistribution schemes? Has he gotten rid of Medicare, public subsidized housing, Medicaid, or food stamps? Sure...Bush cut a few billion from some programs for the 2006 budget, but that doesn't change the fact that he pushed the Medicare prescription drug benefit(which will be horribly expensive). He has kept the current income redistribution schemes in place and put in a new big one. And on top of that he has run massive deficits. He is no fiscal conservative. He spends more money than the Democrats do for God's sake. When a Republican PR person in the press blathers on and on about how the Republican party is the party of fiscal responsibility, I want to strangle them.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3795261 - 02/17/05 10:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not a libertarian, but I am very pleased to see Bush appears to be decreasing spending on some levels, and the idea of privatized SS as well as elimination of tax brackets is a great idea. Less government is good.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3795313 - 02/17/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)


I am very pleased to see Bush appears to be decreasing spending on some levels

What is the point of cutting like 15 or 20 billion when you are still spending 400 billion more than you take in? That is like having a family who earns $4,000 a month and likes to live a $5,000 a month lifestyle by putting $1,000 a month onto their credit card. Then all of a sudden they say, "Well...instead of putting $1,000 a month on the credit card we will only put $950 a month on it". They're still getting into debt and paying interest on that debt.

I REPEAT: Bush IS NOT a fiscal conservative.


Less government is good.

I wish Bush understood that. He doesn't.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3795355 - 02/17/05 10:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I am very pleased to see Bush appears to be decreasing spending on some levels

What is the point of cutting like 15 or 20 billion when you are still spending 400 billion more than you take in? That is like having a family who earns $4,000 a month and likes to live a $5,000 a month lifestyle by putting $1,000 a month onto their credit card. Then all of a sudden they say, "Well...instead of putting $1,000 a month on the credit card we will only put $950 a month on it". They're still getting into debt and paying interest on that debt.

I REPEAT: Bush IS NOT a fiscal conservative.


Less government is good.

I wish Bush understood that. He doesn't.




Bush def isnt a fiscal conservative, but he is ever so slightly starting to act like more of one, perhaps this trend will continue.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3795584 - 02/17/05 11:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Of course, I'm only conservative on economic issues




Do you feel yourself becoming more conservative on the whole?
I only ask because of everyone here you've made one of the more pronounced conversions, and it seems like you're posting has subtly changed again over the past few months. I might just be dreaming, but maybe your conversion hasn't gone full circle yet... Hopefully I'm wrong.

Sorry to be off topic.

As I'm not really a libertarian, maybe it's not my place to comment, but... I'll just say that I think Bush is doing the right thing by trying to make himself more than a unskilled war president. That said, I like some of the ideas behind his attempted privatization of SS, but I think it's going to end up being a disaster. I'd say 95% of Americans, myself included, can't invest for shit. I think this country is going to be in a real tough spot down the road when these people want to retire with very little SS cash. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong (actually, in my opinion it's right and they get what they deserve), but when push comes to shove any major politician running for president, Republican or Democrat, will have to take pity on a generation of aging poor people who blew their savings. I can't even imagine what that will cost us.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Gijith]
    #3795781 - 02/17/05 11:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Bush is alright, but this Ayahausca business is pretty damn stupid.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Gijith]
    #3796127 - 02/18/05 12:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Of course, I'm only conservative on economic issues




Do you feel yourself becoming more conservative on the whole?
I only ask because of everyone here you've made one of the more pronounced conversions, and it seems like you're posting has subtly changed again over the past few months. I might just be dreaming, but maybe your conversion hasn't gone full circle yet... Hopefully I'm wrong.



No, I wouldn't say that at all. I still support gay marriage, the legalization of all drugs, an isolationist foreign policy, and the separation of church and state(though not to the extent that some liberals would like). I go back and forth on the death penalty. In some respects, I've actually become more moderate lately. For example, I've come to believe that environmental regulations are necessary to a certain degree(I actually like the idea of true cost economics), and I'm even somewhat flexible on welfare, so long as it's funded by some less intrusive form(preferably land value tax).

Quote:

As I'm not really a libertarian, maybe it's not my place to comment, but... I'll just say that I think Bush is doing the right thing by trying to make himself more than a unskilled war president. That said, I like some of the ideas behind his attempted privatization of SS, but I think it's going to end up being a disaster. I'd say 95% of Americans, myself included, can't invest for shit. I think this country is going to be in a real tough spot down the road when these people want to retire with very little SS cash. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong (actually, in my opinion it's right and they get what they deserve), but when push comes to shove any major politician running for president, Republican or Democrat, will have to take pity on a generation of aging poor people who blew their savings. I can't even imagine what that will cost us.



My understanding is that these private accounts will be very similar to the 401k accounts that many companies offer. As far as I know, there isn't a big 401k crisis right now, so it must not be that bad. There are various stock options that allow people to choose how much risk they're willing to take. If you make low-risk investments, you may not see a huge return on your money, but it will be pretty stable. I would say low-risk accounts probably are at least as safe if not safer than social security, though I admit I'm no expert on the subject. My main concern is that with how much this is gonna cost, people will have less money to invest. And no, I don't mind at that you've contributed to this thread, especially since you're about the most libertarian of any self-proclaimed liberal I've ever come across.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3796158 - 02/18/05 12:51 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I am very pleased to see Bush appears to be decreasing spending on some levels

What is the point of cutting like 15 or 20 billion when you are still spending 400 billion more than you take in? That is like having a family who earns $4,000 a month and likes to live a $5,000 a month lifestyle by putting $1,000 a month onto their credit card. Then all of a sudden they say, "Well...instead of putting $1,000 a month on the credit card we will only put $950 a month on it". They're still getting into debt and paying interest on that debt.



Ya, that is ironic that people would consider that fiscal conservatism, but compared to what he was doing before, it is. It's kind of like an alcoholic cutting down from 10 beers a day to 7. It's an improvement, but it's still nothing to applaud. I certainly can't say I admire Bush, but I'm not really sure what to think of him at this point.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3796169 - 02/18/05 12:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What do I think of Bush now? Has he denounced the republican party and gone libertarian? No? He still sucks.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3796192 - 02/18/05 01:01 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Glad to hear you're still level headed.


I'm not an expert on this either. I'm very interested to know how much regulation is involved in Bush's plan. And yeah, I'm wondering about the cost. As much as I'd hate it, federal taxes are gonna have to be raised at some point in order to cover all this. And I'd rather have it be done now than thirty years down the road.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3796194 - 02/18/05 01:01 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)


Ya, that is ironic that people would consider that fiscal conservatism, but compared to what he was doing before, it is. It's kind of like an alcoholic cutting down from 10 beers a day to 7.

I disagree. It is like an alcoholic going from 21 beers a day down to 20 beers a day. It's still way too much.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3796334 - 02/18/05 01:25 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Just because we are traveling at 110 mph towards a cliff and now the driver is saying he's going to slow to 100 mph and turn up the air conditioning does not change the fact that we are still headed for a cliff.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3796506 - 02/18/05 01:47 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

Ya, that is ironic that people would consider that fiscal conservatism, but compared to what he was doing before, it is. It's kind of like an alcoholic cutting down from 10 beers a day to 7.

I disagree.  It is like an alcoholic going from 21 beers a day down to 20 beers a day.  It's still way too much.




I'd say its like going from 21 to 19 beers.  :wink:  We are still spending wayyy to much money.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3796541 - 02/18/05 01:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Let's not dwell too much on metaphors. I think we get the point.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3797582 - 02/18/05 10:35 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Bush is nothing but a puppet of evil.


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InvisibleCalifornia
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3798267 - 02/18/05 02:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Regardless of what the Pres is or isn't, there is still plenty of room in the RepubliCAN party for "Libertarians".
It's still a two party system. 2(parties) is company 3 is a crowd.
I'd like to see more "Libertarians" join either the Dems or the Reps just so they can get thier issues and agendas taken more seriously by more people.
Nothing against "Libertarians" but with that party name it probably will never be a top contender.


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Offlinebutterflydawn
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Re: Libertarians: What do you think of Bush now? [Re: California]
    #3798393 - 02/18/05 02:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

there are lotsa crazy presidents around world,
nearly all of them.
but president of usa is totally sick.
thats all i can talk about bush after all that shit.
fucker!


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