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Offlinedeathcapcubensis
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question about amatoxin poisoning
    #3792120 - 02/17/05 09:03 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Ive been thinking... a poison such as amatoxin must be damaging to the body at low levels to right? Not severe, but just minute. Like many exposures could lead to serious illness, maybe? Whats the threshold of poisoning. I have handled them on occasion without washing my hands before touching something else that I ingested....just kinda got me thinking


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #3793428 - 02/17/05 03:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I am unaware of any studies on asymptomatic dosages of amatoxins, so there may not be a definitive answer available. Most studies have used animals and the results are not necessarily identical to what would happen in humans. The LD50 in humans is estimated at about 0.1 mg/kg, indicating a total dose of about 6-7 mg for the average person.

The primary effect of amatoxins is to inhibit RNA polymerase II. This basically shuts down all protein synthesis in the affected cells. The liver is not unusually sensitive to these effects, it just happens to be the the first organ after the gastrointestinal tract to be exposed to high concentrations. The liver is responsible for a large amount of protein synthesis, so its failure produces symptoms that overshadow the symptoms produced by other poisoned organs.

Followup studies of poisoning victims have shown continuing residual damage to the liver. Other organs that have shown damage include the kidneys, heart, brain, skeletal muscles, and pancreas.


On the positive side, amatoxins occur in trace amounts in lots of mushrooms, including many very popular edible species (e.g., Chanterelles and Boletus edulis). There is no evidence that these tiny amounts have any effects at all. If the concentration of the toxin never gets high enough to shut down and kill a cell, the cell will eventually recover and there should be no noticeable long term effects. Incidentally, when I say trace amounts above, you would need to literally eat tons of mushrooms to get enough to produce symptoms.

Several ingestions within a short enough period to build up concentrations of the toxin to dangerous levels could obviously be risky. The human body is actually very good at getting rid of amatoxins - about 90% of the amatoxins consumed are excreted via the urine within 6 hours. On the other hand, excretion continues for more than 72 hours, as some of the toxins are passed from the liver through the bile back into the intestines and reabsorbed, then passed back through the liver, etc.


If you have been symptom free up to this point you're probably OK. If you haven't been washing your hands after handling poisonous mushrooms, it would probably be a good idea to start.

Happy mushrooming!


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Offlineeris
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: ToxicMan]
    #3793550 - 02/17/05 03:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Very nice informative post ToxicMan, I just wanted to add that I have handled several specimens of deadly amanitas and galerinas in the same day and I have not had any problems. Some of the times I didn't even bother washing my hands after wards. I would guess that it's possible to handle enough within a given period to produce mild poisoning symptoms but that it would probably require a sufficient amount of the liquids absorbing into your skin.
An activity such as collecting a few and adding them into your bag should not be a problem.


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Offlinedeathcapcubensis
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: eris]
    #3793744 - 02/17/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I knwo this seems like a paranoid question but soemtimes when I go picking/hunting I will get the shroom material stuck under my finger nails and possibly accidently ingest the material through the intent of ingesting psilocybes..but thanks for the info toxic!!


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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #3793807 - 02/17/05 04:52 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

There has not yet been a proven case of a person being poisoned through skin absorption.

Amatoxins are relatively large molecules, so they are probably much less likely to be absorbable through the skin than smaller molecules (e.g., psilocin, mucarine). Even with the smaller molecules there has not been a proven case of poisoning through the skin.

The most provable effects on skin are contact dermatitis (a rash). In particular, a few of the particularly slimy capped Suillus species have caused this problem (the slime on the cap seems to be the culprit).

I've personally been handling mushrooms (including lots of poisonous ones) for over 25 years without ever being poisoned. And in the field there's often no way to wash your hands within a couple hours of handling the mushrooms. I now take some wet wipes in my car, but I don't bother with them until right before I'm going to eat. And we all know that our mommies always told us to wash our hands before eating :smirk: .

Happy mushrooming!


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Offlinedeathcapcubensis
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: ToxicMan]
    #3795141 - 02/17/05 09:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

no what I mewant is that some of the matter may get stuck under my finger nalis wich may later lead to contamination...for example, I buite my nails and may have ingested some of the matter this way


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #3798192 - 02/18/05 01:47 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Let me ask you this question:

Why are you handling mushroms which have amatoxins in them to begin with?

I see Galerinas every year, by the tens of thousands.

I never have ever touched one. So basically that should not be a probem for everyone. There are too many noticible differences between the Glerina mushrooms, incluiding the deadly Conocybe filaris, and the Psilocybian species they sometimes resemble. Why would you want to handle them. I also never got mushrooms fragments lodged in my fingernails in all of the years I have picked mushrooms.

Anyway, hope you are okay,

have a shroomy day and just do not handle shroosm you are in doubt of. The magic ones are easy once you find some and you should never have to handle other shrooms unless they are edible.

My advise to new pickers has been and always will be to teach them first, what not to pick or touch. That basically eliminates such events as picking a poisonous shroom.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (02/18/05 07:54 PM)


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OfflineMycelium5150
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: mjshroomer]
    #3799780 - 02/18/05 07:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

dcc,
Are you smoking weed when you are hunting?


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Offlinedeathcapcubensis
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: Mycelium5150]
    #3802609 - 02/19/05 06:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I dont smoke that shit..ha. Actually I pick them to study them. As you may know if you have handled psilocybes they have a stronger/sturdier feel to them than galerinas or other mushrooms that may grow in the same habitat. I study them to know my enemy, odes that really sound stupid? That is all.


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OfflineQuankus
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #3803297 - 02/19/05 03:06 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

all i ever handle is non-active, poisonus mushrooms. havent found any psilocybes yet, but i have 7 free grams of Amanita Muscaria in the mail that came with a Salvia order. I am still very undecided on weather i am gonna dose with them.
any tips, that i havent already read on erowid?


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Offlinechocbruce
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Re: question about amatoxin poisoning [Re: Quankus]
    #3808837 - 02/21/05 12:30 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I would suggest reading the amantia section of this site if you haven't stumbles accross it. I would strongly suggest not dosing on amantias. The safest thiung would be to peel the skins and smoke em. Amantias are definatly poisonious....unlike psilocibes. PLEASE be careful!


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