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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included
    #3792034 - 02/17/05 08:09 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

An article by rolling stones about it: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/sto...sion=6.0.12.857

Sigh, i am sick of this place...

And check this out too: www.enjoythedraft.com
What would you do if there was a draft?
You may choose only one
Draft dodgers are pussy, non-patriotic scum. This country is fighting for freedom for the world! I fully support a draft if neccessary!
I think people should do their patriotic duty and join if there is one.
I'm neutral about the draft.
There wont be a draft.
I dont really like the idea of the draft. I dont want to go to war.
Fuck the draft! If they can send me to war against my will, then I truly have NO rights! I'm outta here!


Votes accepted from (02/17/05 08:07 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3792037 - 02/17/05 08:10 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

ummm...hope my intro didnt scew the poll results.


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3792049 - 02/17/05 08:23 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

there won't be a draft, relax.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3792060 - 02/17/05 08:38 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I sincerely hope there is a draft.


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: newuser1492]
    #3792062 - 02/17/05 08:40 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Why would you hope that?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: newuser1492]
    #3792086 - 02/17/05 08:50 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Why?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleMOTH
Wild Woman
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3792370 - 02/17/05 10:25 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I used to think there would be a draft, but unless there is a huge terrorist attack sometime soon, I don't think there will be one now.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: MOTH]
    #3792418 - 02/17/05 10:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

How about if war breaks out with Iran and Syria?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleMOTH
Wild Woman
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3792422 - 02/17/05 10:38 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I still doubt they'd call the draft. But if terrorists from Iran or Syria use biological or chemical weapons on the US that results in massive waves of disease and death...then I can see one coming. I don't think that the time is "ripe" enough yet for a draft. I think if we continue as we are it will come eventually...not soon though.

Hey, I could be wrong.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: MOTH]
    #3792495 - 02/17/05 11:04 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

If war breaks out with Iran and Syria (pay attention to the saber rattling coming from the White House - terrorism is not required), the U.S. will need a lot more troops in the mid-east. Where will these troops come from?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3792506 - 02/17/05 11:08 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I was going to pick both "There won't be a draft" and "Fuck the draft!" but since I couldn't choose two, I went with the latter.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3792735 - 02/17/05 12:06 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

there wont be a draft..so long as poverty continues to increase (irregardless of GDP growth..etc)..which will push more ppl into the military...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineVulture
Pursuer ofWisdom
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 3,546
Loc: SC
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3792800 - 02/17/05 12:21 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

fuck the draft!

although i think im safe...last one to carry the family name.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3792815 - 02/17/05 12:24 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

poor people aren't the only ones who join the military.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3792916 - 02/17/05 12:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

That's right, dikey looking sadists join just for the fun of working in prisons.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3792937 - 02/17/05 12:52 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

not to mention your average male from 18 to 21.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleYidakiMan
Stranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 2,023
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3793291 - 02/17/05 02:29 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I really really doubt a draft. The politicians know that another draft would make the social revolt of the '60s look like kindergarten class.

The military types know that an all volunteer army is superior to a forced service army.

And if there is another terrorist attack, then we would not need a draft because the lines to sign up will be out the door and around the block.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: exclusive58]
    #3793312 - 02/17/05 02:35 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Why would you hope that?



My father, though he is against the war, said he would favor a draft because it would mean that more middle and upper class people would have to do the fighting instead of the lower class doing most of it. Nevermind the fact that poor people in the military actually choose to join, or that the middle and upper class can more easily avoid the draft.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: exclusive58]
    #3793324 - 02/17/05 02:38 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Because if there is a draft it will force the general public to take a better look at US foreign policy.


Edited by newuser1492 (02/17/05 03:57 PM)


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InvisibleCalifornia
A E S T H E T I C S A T A N
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 72,118
Loc: H A U N T E D H O U S E Flag
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: newuser1492]
    #3793347 - 02/17/05 02:46 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I hope there isn't a draft, I do not like the idea of someone that doesn't want to join the military in the first place having access to military information, techniques, training, weapons, etc.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3793453 - 02/17/05 03:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
poor people aren't the only ones who join the military.




thats worse than pathetic..and i neednt insult the intelligence of the audience by saying why its so...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3793461 - 02/17/05 03:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Innvertigo said:
poor people aren't the only ones who join the military.




thats worse than pathetic..and i neednt insult the intelligence of the audience by saying why its so...



Please get off your high horse and explain.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Silversoul]
    #3793598 - 02/17/05 03:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

red herring.. ie the mere fact that not everyone that joins the military is poor is irrelevant to the notion of increasing poverty pushing more ppl into the military...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (02/17/05 03:58 PM)


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3793655 - 02/17/05 04:07 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

The ends justify the means. If the war on terrorism is opened on different fronts and they need more soldiers they will get more soliders. Be it a draft or something like stop loss.


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InvisibleFreeker
jackaroe
Male User Gallery
Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,225
Loc: buffalo
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3793678 - 02/17/05 04:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

If there is a draft, and I get chosen to go for war I will fight for my country.

I wont go and join, but if my country needs me I will fight.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3793684 - 02/17/05 04:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thats worse than pathetic..and i neednt insult the intelligence of the audience by saying why its so...




...or perhaps it's just that you don't know. I'd bet on that, if history is any indication. Your assertion is as pathetic as the person (the name escapes me) who said that recruiters only go to poor schools.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3793697 - 02/17/05 04:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

read my post 3 above...EDIT ..and the fact that you missed it is also telling...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (02/17/05 04:23 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3793725 - 02/17/05 04:28 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

your generalization is pathetic.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,256
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3793746 - 02/17/05 04:36 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

*sigh* Calling eachother pathetic is pathetic...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Rono]
    #3795168 - 02/17/05 10:01 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I have posted this previously but the money is still out there. My hundred to your ten that there will be no draft in the next year. I'll take names and give you mine and I have the money to pay.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 2,511
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3795211 - 02/17/05 10:07 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
there wont be a draft..so long as poverty continues to increase (irregardless of GDP growth..etc)..which will push more ppl into the military...




I know 12 ppl in the military, and not one of them come from a family that makes less than 500k a year.........


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.


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Offlinefaslimy
Dead Man
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Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 3,436
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3795655 - 02/17/05 11:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

More blatent fucking Rumsfeld lies in that article. To the people saying I'll fight for my country if it needs me.. my jaw has dropped. There is no threat to America except the threat from it's government, but it has convinced you to go to 'war' with what will mostly end up being civilians.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3795678 - 02/17/05 11:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

^ i stand corrected...i thought that the US military had a bit more than 12 ppl..but it looks like i was wrong...does that also mean that talk about 1400-1500 deaths in iraq is all a bunch of lefty conspiracy bullshit??..or did all their families make >$500k too??...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 2,511
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3796499 - 02/18/05 01:46 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
^ i stand corrected...i thought that the US military had a bit more than 12 ppl..but it looks like i was wrong...does that also mean that talk about 1400-1500 deaths in iraq is all a bunch of lefty conspiracy bullshit??..or did all their families make >$500k too??...




No, I'm sure a lot of their families didn't make nearly that much, in fact I would venture only about 2% of their families did. I don't think there is a huge disparity amonghst the lower class vs. the upper class in the military. I was making a point, which clearly you missed.  :thumbdown:


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.


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Vulture]
    #3796674 - 02/18/05 02:32 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vulture said:
fuck the draft!

although i think im safe...last one to carry the family name.




This, unfortunately, doesnt save you anymore. I think it is discussed in www.enjoythedraft.com


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3796691 - 02/18/05 02:38 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

YidakiMan said:
I really really doubt a draft. The politicians know that another draft would make the social revolt of the '60s look like kindergarten class.




Americans are asleep. If two stolen elections, a lied about and un-investigated 9/11 attack, and a falsely pursued war didn't wake us up, a draft wont either.

Quote:

The military types know that an all volunteer army is superior to a forced service army.

And if there is another terrorist attack, then we would not need a draft because the lines to sign up will be out the door and around the block.




You're right about that! I think it would only take a simple calculated attack, or ignoring of an attack and our young patriots would be all ready to sign up. However, if this doesn't work, i have no doubt that a draft will ensue. Propaganda is everywhere!


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3796726 - 02/18/05 02:46 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

FreeLaws1_6 said:
Americans are asleep. If two stolen elections, a lied about and un-investigated 9/11 attack, and a falsely pursued war didn't wake us up, a draft wont either.



1. A mix-up in Florida does not count as a stolen election, and I don't even know where you get off saying the second one was stolen.

2. The 9/11 attack was investigated by a commission. The fact that they may not have come to the same conclusions you have does not change that.

3. I'm not sure what is meant by falsely pursued war. Yes, the whole WMD thing turned out to be bogus, but my understanding is that Saddam was still in breach of the ceasefire agreement. Not that I think it was a good idea, but there were some legitimate reasons for doing it.


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Freeker]
    #3796745 - 02/18/05 02:51 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Freeker said:
If there is a draft, and I get chosen to go for war I will fight for my country.

I wont go and join, but if my country needs me I will fight.




Why? If you wont go join, why would you go if you were forced? You're country needs your brain and body defending its freedoms...not sent off to die in a fake war. Either stay here and fight for no draft (since that is true freedom), go join up now (don't wait for a draft...if you want to "fight for your country" when it "needs" you...do it now- it may lessen the chance that the draft will be called), or get the hell outta this damn country like me and my friends (our freedom is being taken from under our noses by the patriot act and such!).

It makes me sad to hear the types of things that you just said. It first of all doesn't make sense. if you supported your country in this war then you should go now. If you don't support it (and i don't assume you do or you would be out there now) then don't support it! Please don't play the "if my country needs me thing".

First off...what is "your country" you were just arbitrarily born to two people that were arbitrarily born here (probably). People assign waaaaay to much pride and identity to a piece of land that is governed by some people that we don't even know, who don't REALLY care about us, we'll never meet and would probably put us in jail if they knew half the things that we do. (keep in mind that "your country" is all for arresting you for YEARS for simple mind expansion substances, which I'm assuming you partake in being a member of this forum).

Second, this latent patriotic theme is an attempt at nobility, sure...but don't be afraid to just say "no, i don't want to go to war now (which is why you're not signed up) and I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to go if someone FORCED me to do it." If George bush pulls the draft he will be killing thousands of people that did not volunteer to be killed. You have the right idea in not sacrificing yourself already....don't sacrifice yourself if a draft is pulled! You are the only one that has the right to control your life...if you would go at all to war, do it by your own choice.


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3796920 - 02/18/05 03:58 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)


First off...what is "your country" you were just arbitrarily born to two people that were arbitrarily born here (probably). People assign waaaaay to much pride and identity to a piece of land

I am all for allowing dissent, freedom of speech, and conscientious objection to certain actions. But, I am still dismayed when I see people so readily attack the idea of patriotism. I like my country. I don't agree with everything that goes on in it and all that it does, yet I care about it and the people who reside in it. It seems to be chic nowadays to attack these feelings as "rabid nationalism", "idiotic patriotism", or "caveman tribalism". I think these automatic "I hate my country" knee-jerk reactions are immature and stupid.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3797108 - 02/18/05 05:06 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

there won't be a draft, barring a massive attack on our soil. and i do mean MASSIVE.

and if it's truly that massive, I don't think they'll NEED a draft.. i'd go sign the fuck up. Let's say that N. Korea nukes NYC? Yeah.. I'd enlist.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3797231 - 02/18/05 06:57 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I was making a point, which clearly you missed.




such is the risk when one actually questions Anna. Alex123 would be proud.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3799865 - 02/18/05 07:54 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I am all for allowing dissent, freedom of speech, and conscientious objection to certain actions. But, I am still dismayed when I see people so readily attack the idea of patriotism. I like my country. I don't agree with everything that goes on in it and all that it does, yet I care about it and the people who reside in it. It seems to be chic nowadays to attack these feelings as "rabid nationalism", "idiotic patriotism", or "caveman tribalism". I think these automatic "I hate my country" knee-jerk reactions are immature and stupid.




Please don't misconstrue, I Don't "hate my country"...because i don't see it as MY country. Also, believe me there is no knee-jerking on my part here, I have thought things out pretty well. It really doesn't make too much sense to claim an identity based on such an arbitrary thing such as the country that you were coincidentally born into.

As far as caring about people in this county...why care about these people - Americans- when there are so many other people out there too...do you care about the innocent Iraqis, or how about the faceless Zimbabweans? Why are Americans so much better?

I am all for supporting freedoms, i just don't think that it is ANY country's prerogative to hand those out. Some would say such freedoms are "god given", the idea behind that is that they are naturally our rights... I agree with this. (not the god given part, as I'm an atheist(

IT is so interesting to me that people, not necessarily you but i just thought of this, define what freedom is by what the constitution says. The constitution is merely a tool to be used by the less powerful to keep the few powerful in line. Because for sure those few powerful will eventually try and reduce freedoms...huh...how interesting...revelation.

The constitution is set in place as a tool for the people to remind those few powerful that we have freedoms, in case/when the few want to take away those freedoms. I think way too many people think that the constitution defines freedom instead of being an indicator that we have freedom...it is unfortunate that people need reminders. Anyway, i just wanted to get that said...i will go write about that idea now...


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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Invisibletak
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3800048 - 02/18/05 08:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

People should not be made to go to war. If they are patriotic enough to want to serve their country, let them. If their country is worth preserving by fighting, then people will join.

As for the poverty draft, it is a reality. I personally know a wide range of people in diffrent services, who's wealth greatly differs. Rich people will always serve, this is a fact. Just because they do, does not mean that the military does not target the poor. Money, and education are quite large incentive's for people who cannot picture themselves or their families leaving the local hellhole anytime soon.

I love my forfathers for founding such a wonderful country, it is just a shame that some of the primary principals of this nation have been destroyed in order to make money, and dominate the world.

It is a shame that the economy is so crazy, the rich getting richer, and the poor being driven into poverty by a consumer world. Rising living expenses, and diclining labor wages driving people out of their homes, giving them the option to fight for the people who did this to them, or end up in jail.

I love my country, and I do not wish for a drastic change. The picture I have in my mind is not of everyone sharing a little of everything, but alot of everything. Giving people a decent life will not mean the average joe giving up his or her hard earned lifestyle. It would mean the top 10% of the nation's wealthy would have a few less lear jets, and a family fortune a little under a world domination budget.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: tak]
    #3800174 - 02/18/05 08:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with you ninja. especially about if this nation is good enough to defend people will do it! Well said.


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3801141 - 02/18/05 11:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)


As far as caring about people in this county...why care about these people - Americans- when there are so many other people out there too...do you care about the innocent Iraqis, or how about the faceless Zimbabweans? Why are Americans so much better?

As an empathetic human being, I have concern for the condition of all people, regardless of nationality. But, I do feel a certain amount of allegiance to my fellow Americans that I do not feel with other people. These people are my friends, family, and countrymen. I feel a certain amount of extra loyalty and concern for these people that occupy the same land that I do. I view this feeling as natural and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Call me an idiotic tribalist or a brainwashed patriot if you will, but I have loyalty, concern, and dedication to America and Americans that I do not feel towards other people.


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3804154 - 02/19/05 07:56 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
As an empathetic human being, I have concern for the condition of all people, regardless of nationality. But, I do feel a certain amount of allegiance to my fellow Americans that I do not feel with other people. These people are my friends, family, and countrymen. I feel a certain amount of extra loyalty and concern for these people that occupy the same land that I do. I view this feeling as natural and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Call me an idiotic tribalist or a brainwashed patriot if you will, but I have loyalty, concern, and dedication to America and Americans that I do not feel towards other people.




That seems strange to me...especially since a lot of Americans are big asses (same with other people of other countries). Don't get me wrong, i understand loyalty to family and friends that is natural, since the provide for you...however loyalty to countryman/Americans...that's where it gets a little silly to me.

It is not tribal to hold loyalty to a group of 300 million people...that is a distortion of tribalism perhaps but is not tribalism. Tribalism would be the loyalty, respect, and care of people that are close to you, that provide and care for you, that you aid and who aid you in survival.

As far as empathy for humans, i understand that to a degree, but you bring it one step more when you say "especially to Americans". I really think you should ponder that a little bit more. What does my net door neighbor down here in Texas provide you that you feel more connected to him than you do to Yin, a young Chinese woman in china? Nothing...so why the special loyalty and care to Americans? They are on the whole, just as dumb, intelligent, heartless, caring, pretty, ugly...etc as any other person of any other country.

It is important to question ourselves... to not let ourselves resolve to answering questions with "just because" and just following what "feels good", or what "is right"... you know?


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3804203 - 02/19/05 08:23 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)


As far as empathy for humans, i understand that to a degree, but you bring it one step more when you say "especially to Americans". I really think you should ponder that a little bit more.

What does my net door neighbor down here in Texas provide you that you feel more connected to him than you do to Yin, a young Chinese woman in china? Nothing...so why the special loyalty

I share a language, a geographical area, basic culture, a basic value system, and a government with my fellow Americans. These are reasons why I feel a certain amount of allegiance and affinity for them.


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Offlineshroommachine
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3804956 - 02/19/05 11:57 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I voted for "FUCK THE DRAFT", But if we get hit with a biological weapon by Syria or Iran, prior to our invasion, It is likley my posision will change. I'm 18 so If there is a draft, I am very likley to be drafted.


--------------------
And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3804968 - 02/20/05 12:01 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

These similarities are arbitrary... why assign allegiance to something you had no choice in? If you are saying that you have most in common with Americans in some ways, than other people of different nations...then i guess so. But just because we are similar to someone else does not mean that allegiance should be assigned to them.

Also, the similarities that you mentioned are so...iffy. language- you speak English which is spoken in MANY countries. geographical area- what does this mean really? if you live in Maine you share a closer geographical area to Canadians than Californians. basic culture- America is known for its variation of culture so...you actually don't share too much basic culture with the rest of the Americans. unless of course you are referring to the western civilization type of culture and in that case, many many countries take part in this as well. Basic value system- no not really. i mean we all want to be free...but if you smoke pot or any such thing you are greatly opposed by your fellow Americans, also if you believe in god or don't you are pretty opposed there too. and finally government- a democracy? is that what you mean? because if that's so, that is many places as well...and if you mean simply the constitution...well then...i guess that would be the only one that works. not to be rude.


--------------------
Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3805140 - 02/20/05 12:44 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)


These similarities are arbitrary... why assign allegiance to something you had no choice in?

Because that is my choice.


But just because we are similar to someone else does not mean that allegiance should be assigned to them.

Of course it doesn't mean that it should be. I never said that my way of thinking should be required for everybody. It is how I feel however.


Also, the similarities that you mentioned are so...iffy. language- you speak English which is spoken in MANY countries. geographical area- what does this mean really? if you live in Maine you share a closer geographical area to Canadians than Californians.

By geographical area I mean an area confined within a well-established border. When a population lives under one government, they oftentimes deal with the same circumstances in their lives. This is one thing that adds to a feeling of comradery.


basic culture- America is known for its variation of culture so...you actually don't share too much basic culture with the rest of the Americans. unless of course you are referring to the western civilization type of culture and in that case

Whenever I travel somewhere, I can always tell when I am in America and when I am not in America(I have traveled to other countries). It is a feeling. The people are a little different and I notice it.


Basic value system- no not really. i mean we all want to be free...but if you smoke pot or any such thing you are greatly opposed by your fellow Americans,

I don't smoke pot. And just because you might hold one or two views that don't really fall into line with the majority, doesn't mean that your basic value system is different.


and finally government- a democracy? is that what you mean? because if that's so, that is many places as well

No, that is not what I mean. I and other Americans live under the same government. Because we live under the same legal entity, certain issues affect us equally.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3806112 - 02/20/05 10:11 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I doubt there'll be a draft, perhaps within a decade or so if everything keeps declining, but I can't see one within the next few years. And if there is, I'll put my dual citizenship to good use and get the fuck out of here if I'm chosen.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: tak]
    #3808110 - 02/20/05 08:50 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rich people will always serve, this is a fact. Just because they do, does not mean that the military does not target the poor. Money, and education are quite large incentive's for people who cannot picture themselves or their families leaving the local hellhole anytime soon.




You're looking at things backwards.

They are not directly targetting the poor.

The poor being a large part of military forces goes back.. thousands, and thousands of years.

What the military does is offer pay and rewards to any who sign up. The less you have, the more attractive that pay and those rewards become to you. The more attractive the payoff for signing up, the more likely you will sign up.

If I offered 5 bucks to someone to run to the store for me and buy something, chances are the person who would accept my offer would be the one for whom 5 bucks is more than what they would consider the time it would take them to complete the task, plus the trouble on their part, is worth.
And it's more likely that someone making minimum wage would be more likely to accept my offer than someone making $100,000 a month.. because 5 bucks is worth more to you the less money you have.

It's not that I was targetting the poorer of the two people with my offer -- 5 bucks was simply what I decided I could afford for the task, and the offer was more attractive the less money a person could make elsewhere.


And, just as has been done for thousands and thousands of years, the wealthy often enlist in the military not for the pay, but rather for the prestige. How many politicians served in the military? That's something that, just as the poor forming the majority of a fighting force, can be traced back all the way to Rome, the Chinese dynasties, man.. as far back as we can trace shit like that.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineAlobar
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Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: FreeLaws1_6]
    #3808471 - 02/20/05 10:14 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Just thought I'd say??this discussion between FreeLaws and RandalFlagg is darned good. Tell you what. Often wondered 'bout the same things m'self.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: Alobar]
    #3809021 - 02/21/05 01:04 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I think the whole idea of a draft is wrong. If we need more people all we have to do is appeal to market forces and raise the wages.

I don't want to drive a supply truck in Iraq. Some patriots would drive a supply truck for free in honor of the motherland. God Bless them. Most of us would drive a supply truck for a million dollars. I would. Somewhere inbetween those two points is your supply curve, and for every incremental increase in wages you increase your supply of people willing to join the army.

The draft is a horrible idea. An all volunteer army is a better trained and much better motivated fighting force.

The people that claim we are going to have a draft are idiots. The people that claim that we are going to attack Iran are wrong. We are not going to have a draft, and we aren't about to attack Iran.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Get Ready...the draft if coming! Poll included [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3810627 - 02/21/05 01:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

They'll have to start prinitng a lot more money!

Aren't army drivers and such over in Iraq already demoralised because their private Halliburton counterparts etc get many multiple times the money that army people get?


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