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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
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Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
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Swami, I suggest you re-read the "How Not To Talk" sticky in the S&P forum. You're posts are like quotes from it!
Lucid dreaming IS in fact a manipulation of reality (dream reality may not be physical, but as long as we percieve it, it is real).
I don't have to be an astronaut to know about outerspace. Quit nitpicking!
"'I think an important part of a spiritual debate is first pointing out something in the person's post that you agree with or can shed some light on, and THEN you can tell them what you don't agree with.' That is YOUR method. Did don Juan mollycoddle Carlos? "
I don't know, I've never read the books. But I do know that when you can't expect to change someone's mind by direct opposition. People know what they've experianced and they won't abandon that just because you tell them they are wrong.
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: dr0mni]
#3797650 - 02/18/05 09:11 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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No Don Juan was the result of Castaneda's experience with 2 separate shaman. Genaro was a character added in the third book.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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midway
Stranger
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3799194 - 02/18/05 03:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I believe that those books contain techniques to dislodge your mental state away from normal, enabling you to experience the true power of the mind.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
#3799196 - 02/18/05 03:47 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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You don't get the point I am making. Some of this work was based on personal experience...most was invention. All of it was created with the intention of expressing certain philosophical ideas. Carlos never claimed that his books were totally non-fiction. For many years in the late 70s and 80s the books were in fact published as fiction. Just because there is invention does not mean a truth is not contained within. You are seeing only black and white here. A philosophical truth can be expressed in a fictional context. You seemed determined to conclude that his intention was deception, but I don't think that you are correct here...but it IS a mistake to give these books too much importance...as much as totally dismissing them. They were important in that they re-interested America in preserving native tradition.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: midway]
#3799221 - 02/18/05 03:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think they were a mixture of philosophy and entertainment with a basis in native magical tradition. It is worth noting that many of his terms and techniques were taken from obscure anthropological sources and used out of context. I do think he was trying to impart a teaching...but in the end his self importance overcame his desire to pass knowledge accurately. His need for money overcame his integrity (tensegrity is bullshit with no basis in magical tradition).
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
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Posts: 10,689
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I am disagreeing with everyone on this one. On one side we have unquestioning believers and on the other is someone who thinks it is worthless bullshit. Both extremes are biased views that are not based on personal knowledge that has been aquired.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3799524 - 02/18/05 04:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you go back to the first post of the thread, I bring this all up in passing. Like, "hey, today i saw something on the news....", I never said "hey, Don Juan is the way and a philosophical force to be reckoned with, and you should all eat every word of it". The only bias I have is based on the books themselves. After i read "the teachings of Don Juan" i went online to see more about it. Never got into tensegrity either. I saw the articles about the inconsistencies in his stories, and saw their validity. I dont think there is any book out there today that falls strictly under the non-fiction or fiction category, each contain essences of both. I never picked this book up as my bible, I just found it to be a very interesting viewpoint and carried on like I would with any other book.
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Huehuecoyotl
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I got interested in shamanism after reading "Journey to Ixtlan", and 10 years later after finding out everything I could find out about the subject (of shamanism) I went back and read all of his books through three times each and performed my own analysis based on my knowledge of native magical traditions. I have read all of the debunkings and I have found that most "debunkers" miss the true inconsistencies while using the consistant facts about Castaneda as fuel for their debunkings. This is based in the debunkers either never having truly read or analyzed his books and the philosophy within. DeMille, who's book is seen as the definitive Castaneda debunking, played on the fact that Castaneda had lied about his name, his country of origin, his childhood, and the basic facts of his everyday life. Mr. DeMille could find no living human that knew any true facts about "Castaneda". Mr. DeMille declared Castaneda a con man and a liar on this basis. Any reader of Castaneda's books would immediately see the references to "losing personal history" in order to prevent others from manipulating you based on what they knew of you. Mr. DeMille's book made it quite obvious that Mr. Castaneda lived the philosophy he wrote of. but Mr. DeMille was so unfamiliar with these concepts that he misinterpreted them as inconsistencies. Other debunkers have had similar failings...common ignorance. The inconsistencies lie in the drug experiences that "Carlos" describes and the misappropriated terminology he uses such as naugal and tonal. His ideas are lucid and brilliant, yet full of weird inconsistencies that surround them with the mystery that Castaneda himself embodied. His death was even surrounded in mystery as his body was claimed by a group of Indians from central Mexico and spirited away to the unknown. He seemingly came out of nowhere, lived in a cloud of deceptions and half truths, and then disappeared. It is folly to pay too little attention to these books, and folly to pay too much, for Don Juan was, before all, a trickster.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (02/18/05 08:31 PM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3800623 - 02/18/05 08:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Two major points:
1. Castaneda presented himself as an anthropologist, not a novelist; yet he is closer to Stephen King than Margarett Mead.
2. Consistency or inconsistency, it seems no one that promotes the teachings can do even the most minor of sorcery. It is like studying and reading a book on diet and weight training for years on end and promoting it, yet one still has a pot belly and 12" arms and struggles to do 5 push-ups. Following a "how to" book should engender change. PERIOD. Reading a good story is merely about entertainment.
Here in Don Juan's own words on Carlos' admiration of his professor from "The Active Side of Infinity", "Test him... If what he says turns out to be just words; he's not worth a hoot."
And THAT folks, is the bottom line.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
#3800666 - 02/18/05 08:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorcery and drugs are hooks man...look deeper. You need to reread these books. Castaneda's works were all about illusion for practical means. The true sorcery here is "controlling the consensual reality" which Castaneda himself had mastered. You see only the surface. " This book is both ethnography and allegory"--The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge. Your botom line is irrelevant in light of this.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (02/18/05 08:44 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3800698 - 02/18/05 08:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Swami: "Reading a good story is merely about entertainment."
Wrong...entertainment can also enlighten. Have you never read "Fahrenheit 451" or "Dune"...just to name a couple of enlightening fictional books.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
#3800749 - 02/18/05 08:49 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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An interesting quote about Castaneda that contains much truth.
"In attempting to make sense of the critical and ideological maelstrom that has followed Carlos Castaneda's death, some of us have turned to the published critiques of his works. Two of the earliest of these appeared in 1976: Richard de Mille's Castaneda's Journey: The Power and the Allegory and Daniel C. Noel's Seeing Castaneda: Reactions to the "Don Juan" Writings of Carlos Castaneda. Although each author was unaware of the other's project, both focused on what might be described as the "hinge" of Castaneda's sorcery at the time: the suspicion that Castaneda's books might be fiction. However, while de Mille set out to run down clues proving Castaneda's literary and anthropological hoax, Noel concentrated on a different matter. He saw Castaneda doing something significant, that is, he saw Castaneda conveying a form of shamanism to the West, and doing so through what might be a hoax. "Castaneda," he later wrote, "had seemingly brought back the living experience of indigenous shamanism to a Western culture that had suppressed such a spiritual form in its own history, silencing its practitioners and consigning it to the irrelevant exotica of museums and musty scholarship."
Anyway, that's all I got to say about it for now, but read this delightful interview: http://www.sustainedaction.org/Explorations/an_interview_with_daniel_noel.htm
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (02/18/05 08:56 PM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3800820 - 02/18/05 08:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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As the average American watches several hours of "good stories" (subjective - so please no comment on this) on TV daily, we much be a v-e-r-y enlightened society.
An another note, I know more of your personal history as revealed by you, than most posters here; so apprently you do not practice "erasing personal history" never mind cliff-jumping.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3800842 - 02/18/05 09:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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In the books he tells Don Juan that he knows what the Tonal and the Nagual are, which is what the criticism took as an inconsistency. He talks about the Tonal as being the animal spirit and the Nagual as being the shapeshifting (of vice versa) and Don Juan sets him straight as to what he means by the Tonal and the Nagual. So he went into the conversation with the public domain knowledge of Tonal and Nagual, what you might find in an encyclopedia, but he explains this in the books, which wouldnt really make it an inconsistency.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Posts: 10,689
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
#3800869 - 02/18/05 09:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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You do not really know my personal history...I could be a verbose liar...but I am not. I do not try to hide my identity. Erasing personal history is based on controlling other's assumptions about you. I said Carlos' work had value. but it is not the be all-end all guide to native mysticism. I was inspired by the Ixtlan book, but it is not my personal guide to enlightenment. I am who you want me to be, and I help all people to see in me what they want. I, as we all are, am only a mirror. You will only see yourself. My cliff was not very high (maybe a foot).
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (02/18/05 09:31 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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I did not look in an encyclopedia. I studied and prascticed shamanism for over 15 years now. I have spoken to academics and practitioners of the discipline. Any entheogen user here would see Castaneda's drug experiences as hoaky, sensational, nonsense...but a good hook too snare druggies with nevertheless. I ain't criticising him, though, he was a wonderful writer who gave me many hours of thoughtful enjoyment.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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ShroomDoom
Friend of the Medicine
Registered: 06/07/04
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
#3802468 - 02/19/05 02:47 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: You have said NOT ONE THING about how you manipulate consensus reality as previously claimed. Of course, that is what I expected.
Dreams have aslo been used as effective healing techniques ... And who or what have you healed in this fashion?
i have healed myself. One time i busted a blood vessel in my right hand and i was in rediculous pain( i have busted blood vesses before and it didnt hurt half as bad). the second night into the ordeal, i had a dream in which i saw a large pool of olive oil which people were dipping thier limbs in and drinking from(gross) it was like some kind of baptism. anyways, the next day i rubbed some olive oil on my hand, sure enoguh it felt a billion times better, it may have been a psychological thing but it was validation enough for me that dreams have healing potential. especially psychological healing. in a dream you can confront say, an abusive realative and stand in courage against them with courage and confront them. you said reality. not conscensus reality, which i assume is the illusion that you perceive that there is somehow a basic reality in which we all function. there isnt. its about perspective.
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