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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Don Juan continued.....
    #3790388 - 02/16/05 07:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

He brought up a very great point in these books about dreaming. When we dream from our waking life, into our "dream" state, that dream is our reality and universe for that while. However the inverse could be just the same, that our "dreaming" selves are in fact dreaming this waking reality. Neither is more "real" than the other ones until lucidity occurs. "Lucidity" can occur in waking life and non-waking life. While dreaming, you realize that you are dreaming and become "lucid" or aware of this, which could be considered a higher level of consciousness while in the dream realm. The same should be true for our waking realm, if we can raise our awareness and consciousness, we may be able to play with this reality as we do the dream reality.

Also the movie "Waking Life" makes a really good point about this. In our waking life, thoughts and memories do not conjure up hallucenations or materialize because of some inhibitors (supposedly) in the brain. This is makes evolutionary sense because if that did happen, every time we thought of a tiger, we would see one and probably run. In our dream realm, these inhibitors are inhibited themselves, so that when we do think or imagine a tiger, we see and perceive one in our dream world. So our perceptions in the waking life, and the perceptions in the dream realm are exactly the same and no more "real" than the other.

Now back to Don Juan: he said since birth we have been conditioned and programmed to go beyond just believing in this reality, but "knowing" this reality and since it is the only one we "know" we function inside of it and it becomes entangled in our reasoning and logic to the point that if we physically travelled hundreds of miles instantaneoulsy without any apparatus, we would still have trouble coping with it due to our stubborness of reason and logic rooted in this "known" reality.

PLAY BALL!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3790467 - 02/16/05 07:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Neither is more "real" than the other...
Not even close. The waking world has continuity. I would wager that 99.99% of humanity would prefer to be stabbed in a dream rather than in waking life.

Now back to Don Juan: he said...
A fictitious character can say and do all sorts of fun and interesting things, however Don Juan's teachings and "accomplishments" have as much relevance to our lives as Superman's ability to fly.

Try modeling your life on real people and events.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3790695 - 02/16/05 08:01 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

hmmmm.... have you ever died in your dreams? Everytime I hear of someone "dying" in their dreams, they wake up the millisecond before actual death. I was gunned down once in a lucid dream that started to lose its lucidity and instantly awoke to about 9 points of a tingling sensation where i had been hit, which lasted for about 10 seconds after waking. If one was to die in their dreams and continue to dream, i think they would be in danger of physically dying. When you fall in your dreams, do you not get the exact same feeling of falling as if you were to actually fall in waking life? Sure more people would rather get stabbed in a dream than waking life, that is because they are so "sure" of their waking perceptions and reality. What if you died in waking life and woke up in a lucid dream state. Who is to say that we arent "dreaming" our waking life, and that dream is of blessed order and continuity, just as our dreams are often chaotic and non-sequitor?

Second, you dont know for sure if Don Juan is a ficticious character or not. Yes I have read the many people dogging on Casteneda about the character Don Juan, and im sure you will spout some of them after this. You are taking your reality way to seriously to think that it is in fact truth and the "real" reality. Don Juan is as much of a real figure as Jesus Christ. People model themselves after the story of his life, which can only be proven as much as the story of Don Juan.
I also dont Model my life after anyone, I find what Don Juan has to say very insightful and a very intriguing veiwpoint. If you would take a half a second and try to leave you reasoning, logic and stubborness of "knowing" this reality as truth, and question all of it, you might start to see what my previous post was about, but until then you will be a retarding force on your own path to get outside of your physical realm and reality.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3790765 - 02/16/05 08:10 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

If one was to die in their dreams and continue to dream, i think they would be in danger of physically dying.
Basis?

What if...
Why not look at "what is" instead of making up fantasy hypotheticals?

You are taking your reality way to seriously to think that it is in fact truth and the "real" reality
Naturally despite all your flubbering, you would not care to take the Swami "Jump off a High Cliff onto Land without Apparatus" Challenge.

Don Juan is as much of a real figure as Jesus Christ.
Nice strawman argument.

I find what Don Juan has to say very insightful and a very intriguing veiwpoint. If you would take a half a second and try to leave you reasoning, logic and stubborness of "knowing" this reality as truth, and question all of it, you might start to see what my previous post was about, but until then you will be a retarding force on your own path to get outside of your physical realm and reality.
Please list one thing of substance that your you can do "outside of this reality" as learned from the Teachings of Don Juan that I, or most others, cannot. Be specific.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3790977 - 02/16/05 08:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

LOL... there is no basis. I posted this in the S&P forum because it falls under beliefs, which cant be based on scientific proof. How do you know that the thousands of people that die in their sleep havent done so by dying in their dreams? You cant prove it! where is your basis against it?

What If? well, without it we wouldnt be able to speculate on things like this, which would make life pretty mundane and this forum pretty useless.

I dont claim to be superior or enlightened (unlike some of us on this thread...), I probably couldnt live through your challenge, but that doesnt mean it cant be done, or that I wont attain the ability to do so. Possibilities are infinite.

My point about Jesus christ/Don Juan irked you didnt it? and all you could do was attack my argument and not the fact that it is 100% similar, which made your argument obsolete.

"Please list one thing of substance that your you can do "outside of this reality" as learned from the Teachings of Don Juan that I, or most others, cannot. Be specific."
There is nothing that I can do that you dont have the potential to do. I have been getting increasingly better at lucid dreams, and can now get outside of my "eyes" in my dream, and only once have i been able to get to the highest (of my expereince) level of lucidity and be aware of my waking body lying down, while i was standing up in my dream. It becomes very unstable and hard to cope with this "double awareness" and superposition of self, so it didnt last for too long (dream time) but it was very cool.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3791156 - 02/17/05 02:15 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

LOL... there is no basis.
Let me see if I understand: out of an infinity of possible fantasies, you choose this one for absolutely no reason?

My point about Jesus christ/Don Juan irked you didnt it?
Irked? Why would your lack of knowledge on logical debate irk me?

...and all you could do was attack my argument...
So the fact that arguments have been challenged as a standard basis for philosophical debate for thousands of years is somehow something new and untoward?

...and not the fact that it is 100% similar, which made your argument obsolete.
You brought up a point not in evidence and pretend that I base my argument on that. This is neither clever nor acceptable debating technique. This is called a "strawman argument".

You state that you can do nothing to support your view of extraordinary reality; yet you proclaim it as if it were a valuable teaching. One might as well use Superman comic books to show how we can fly.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3791347 - 02/17/05 03:01 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I have loved both superman and don juan
and several other heros
peter pan not so much.
haven't got into true historicals
least likely - the modern presidents.
which by the way
if we have any good magic people, I think
they might take a look at the dark side looming
in the bright house.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3791378 - 02/17/05 03:08 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
My point about Jesus christ/Don Juan irked you didnt it?
Irked? Why would your lack of knowledge on logical debate irk me?



I suppose I have some sort of ego attachment to logic, because personally, I do tend to get rather frustrated and worked up over the ignorance of some posters here. I guess I need to work on that.


--------------------


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Silversoul]
    #3791657 - 02/17/05 04:36 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Swami, I have only posted with the sole intention of bringing my perceptions and thoughts to this message board, to provide an alleyway for the thinkers here to travel and have fun with. I dont proclaim spiritual superiority or knowingness ever in my threads, however, you speak as if you have some monopoly on truth and reality. You have yet to really attempt to debate the issues i have presented and bypassed all this with indirectly flaming me.

It is really getting you worked up, with every post i can see your anger building. I know I am irking you, while I sit back and laugh, because I dont take this thread (or reality) as seriously as you seem to. You still cant face up to my post about the similarities of jesus and Don Juan, and all you do is try to label that with some debating term. I proved that you have yet to point your logic at other sources, i didnt make a hollow, refutable, character up so that i could try to discredit your entire post. The story of jesus is just as valid as the story of Don Juan. You need to go define what "Strawman" is, and get back to us when you realize your blunder.

Can you name any reason why the story of Don Juan and the story of jesus are so different? All you can do is quote me and hardly type anything of substance or worth reading. You have never gone after the actual theory behind the arguments, but attacked the actual words used in the argument.

Why are you so vehemently opposed to me and everything I post on here? Do i really threaten you? All i ask is that we sit down and talk about these stupid theories for fun. Im not trying to be a catalyst for someones spiritual cognition, Im not trying to awaken any "really deep" and profound understandings. All i want is people to see this, and understand that this is how I see things, and then show me what they think, so that I can see their POV on this.

I also posted about a dream I had, which talked about my perception of extraordinary realities, but you apparently didnt read that, because it may have upset your fragile view of this conditioned reality of yours. You acted as if i never answered any of your questions and plowed on with your ignorance of the subject at hand. I now wonder how much of Carlos Casteneda you have read, and how much validity you would actually have posting on this thread about such matters. Take your hollow statements somewhere else, because they are just diverting the focus of my topic onto some immature grudge you have against me for showing you up in another forum.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3792068 - 02/17/05 08:43 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I often thought about that while falling asleep as a child. That was a time when my dreams were my only refuge from daily reality.

As for the reality of dreams. What happens inside your head is still real, even though it is not physical. The very act of thinking brings thought into existance. Dreams and thoughts have very real effects on the way we act and, in turn, how we affect the "real" world. Your body may have survived a dream death, but that doesn't mean that you're experiance of dying is any less valid.

There's a lot of crazy ways to manipulate reality. Telekenesis, levatation, remote veiwing, chakra/chi energy focusing, lucid dreaming, etc. Most of these we don't really understand anyways...

I always thought Don Juan was a real person! Was he really just a fictional character or is this a topic of debate and controversy? Don Juan did sound exactly like jesus when he would always say "You look but do not see! You hear but do not listen!" The two can be compared qualitatively by saying they were both spiritually enlightened people who could perform miracles and such. But quantitatively, Jesus was obviously more influential, and more historically accepted as being real (I don't know about Don Juan. Maybe you guys can tell me).

I think an important part of a spiritual debate is first pointing out something in the person's post that you agree with or can shed some light on, and THEN you can tell them what you don't agree with. Don't immediately attack everything they say as being "ignorant, ego centric, and delusional". Let the other person know that their experiance is valid, and so are their questions. Because all of our experiances are from God and all of our questions seek God.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: dr0mni]
    #3792507 - 02/17/05 11:08 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

There's a lot of crazy ways to manipulate reality. Telekenesis, levatation, remote veiwing, chakra/chi energy focusing, lucid dreaming, etc. Most of these we don't really understand anyways...
And which of these can you perform or are you another who promotes things he cannot do? (Lucid dreaming does not allow one to manipulate reality, it merely means that one is cognizant that one is dreaming.)

I think an important part of a spiritual debate is first pointing out something in the person's post that you agree with or can shed some light on, and THEN you can tell them what you don't agree with.
That is YOUR method. Did don Juan mollycoddle Carlos?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3794995 - 02/17/05 09:36 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
There's a lot of crazy ways to manipulate reality. Telekenesis, levatation, remote veiwing, chakra/chi energy focusing, lucid dreaming, etc. Most of these we don't really understand anyways...
And which of these can you perform or are you another who promotes things he cannot do? (Lucid dreaming does not allow one to manipulate reality, it merely means that one is cognizant that one is dreaming.)

I think an important part of a spiritual debate is first pointing out something in the person's post that you agree with or can shed some light on, and THEN you can tell them what you don't agree with.
That is YOUR method. Did don Juan mollycoddle Carlos?




are you insane? lucid dreaming is one of the best techniques for stretching perception beyond its normal levels, and loosening the conscious mind's hold on our view of reality. In a lucid dream, you can control any and every aspect of your dream. you can do ANYTHING. you can make yourself as large as a universe, then shrink yourself to an atom. You can split your awareness and make yourself in to two, three, or a hundred people. you can transform into an Angel or a Dakini. You can transform yourself into a Buddha. You can make things manifest, take dream drugs(way more fucked up than real life trips) or travel dream worlds. Dream state is one the best ways to prepare for bardo, for like bardo, dream state is not within the confines of mundane reality (or the conscious minds's perception of reality). Dreams have aslo been used as effective healing techniques and often contain information that the subconscious mind knows, and will manifest as an object or image. the subconscious stores a lot of information that the conscious mind misses. dreams are a good way to pick up the stuff we overlook. not to mention fufill certain psychological tasks (slapping George W. bush would be fufilling) i Love lucid Dreams. they are like a gift from the creator.


--------------------


Edited by ShroomDoom (02/17/05 09:38 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #3795800 - 02/17/05 11:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

You have said NOT ONE THING about how you manipulate consensus reality as previously claimed. Of course, that is what I expected.

Dreams have aslo been used as effective healing techniques ...
And who or what have you healed in this fashion?


--------------------



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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3795966 - 02/18/05 12:09 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

To clear matters up a bit. Don Juan was not totally fictitious. He was an combination of two shaman with whom Castaneda was familiar with. Many of the teachings in his books were directly related to native american teachings of the native peoples of the southwest. The Plains Indians shared some of these same views as parts of their religion had migrated north from Mexico when many shaman of the southwest moved north to escape the persecutions of the spanish conquest. The books themselves are for the most part fiction, but being presented in the manner of a native teaching story with the teachings hidden within the stories that are presented. The books are multi-leveled in this way. Will reading them make one a shaman? No. I have noted many of his facts concerning entheogens seem to be made up, and not based on personal experience. I think the drugs in the early books were merely a hook to get many counter culture readers interested. The later books presented the teachings and de-emphasized the drugs. The books have some philosophical worth, but are not guides to being a shaman...which is a healer. Don Juan claimed to be a brujo...which is an evil sorcerer. Oh yeah...Tensegrity was a bullshit, last ditch effort for a corporation to exploit the name of a dying man who was clearly desparate for funds. His books are a great form of "thoughtful" entertainment which have gotten many people interested in true native culture.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (02/18/05 12:28 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3796567 - 02/18/05 01:59 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Don Juan was not totally fictitious. He was an combination...

Combining two people is a fiction. That does not happen in real life. It is not anthropological reporting nor autobiographical.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3796952 - 02/18/05 04:11 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

In the books, Don Juan is Don Juan, the other you are talking about is Don Genaro. It isnt a combination, they are both present in his books. I also agree that the psychoactive drugs arent even a part of it, and arent even mentioned in most of the books. Mainly only in the first and some in the second.
Now Swami.... Can you answer me this question, because your relevence on this matter hinges on the answer. Have you actually read all, or even a third of the Don Juan series?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3797003 - 02/18/05 04:35 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I have read about 7 or 8 of the books. Your point?

I have a friend who's great-grandfather was a Yacqui warrior. Seems they were brutalized by the hispanic Mexicans and had their land stolen to the point where they were so destitute that they ate the soldiers that they killed at the turn of the last century. This does not make him an expert, but he says the whole brujo thing was pure myth designed to scare the Mexicans. Didn't work though, so they went the cannibal route. That only pissed the Mexicans off even more.

Of course, if the brujos truly had any power as Don Juan described, they would not have had their asses kicked all across Mexico and themselves relegated to virtual slavery on the sugar cane fields where they were transplanted.

Hmmm, bullets or "shifting one's assemblage point", which had the greater magic?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3797037 - 02/18/05 04:46 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Ah, so aptitude for warfare must be better than peaceful spirituality. That must be why America is so spiritually advanced isnt it? And if those tibetan monks are so powerful, how come they cant overthrow their oppressors?

7 or 8! that sounds like you actually read them... So what was it that you didnt like about the books? please elaborate on some points. Also, just because you didnt get the meaning from it that I did doesnt disredit it. You sound as if since you thought it was bullshit, that it MUST be bullshit... we are so lucky to have you here to tell us what we can and cant find meaning from.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3797092 - 02/18/05 05:02 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Ah, so aptitude for warfare must be better than peaceful spirituality.
Here we go again. I never said that. Must you read things not presented? However, Don Juan SPECIFICALLY uses the term "warrior" constantly throughout all his diatribes, plus additional references to ferocity, aggressiveness and ruthlessness. Never once saw anything about peacefulness or gentleness. What book were you reading?

And if those tibetan monks are so powerful, how come they cant overthrow their oppressors?
:yawn: Non-stop strawmen seems your forte.

You sound as if since you thought it was bullshit, that it MUST be bullshit...
Umm, can you move your assemblage point? If not then it was just entertainment. If you can demonstrate, then my opinion will change.

we are so lucky to have you here to tell us what we can and cant find meaning from.
True.  :heart:


--------------------



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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Don Juan continued..... [Re: Swami]
    #3797134 - 02/18/05 05:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

And if those tibetan monks are so powerful, how come they cant overthrow their oppressors?
Non-stop strawmen seems your forte.

So, anytime in which someone shows any similarity between 2 stories is strawman? I think it is just your way of handling it without actually trying to put up an argument once your previous argument has been countered.
Warrior is used in the book as a state of mind and being. Don Juans philosophy is not of being aggressive or peaceful. He strikes the good and bad and focuses on acting and being.
Since I cannot move my assemblage point, does that mean it is impossible, or that no one can do it? What about being aware of both waking and dreaming states simutaneously, which I have done? Dont discard something as false because i have yet to attain one of many of the states that are mentioned in the book. Maybe it is all purely fiction, but it still brings up interesting points which can bring about some personal insights, and just because you didnt get the same insights as I did doesnt mean that it is pure bullshit. If I somehow found enlightenment from a story about purple unicorns that shit marshmallows and candycanes, sure you can debunk the story using your logic, but I didnt reach my enlightenment using your logic, which may be why you havent found that enlightenment yet (within the realm of the purple unicorn story).


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