
newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104

Time?
#3774294  02/13/05 03:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=126649#121
Quote:
One of these new technologies was a humblelooking black box known was a Random Event Generator (REG). This used computer technology to generate two numbers  a one and a zero  in a totally random sequence, rather like an electronic coinflipper.
The pattern of ones and noughts  'heads' and 'tails' as it were  could then be printed out as a graph. The laws of chance dictate that the generators should churn out equal numbers of ones and zeros  which would be represented by a nearly flat line on the graph. Any deviation from this equal number shows up as a gently rising curve.
During the late 1970s, Prof Jahn decided to investigate whether the power of human thought alone could interfere in some way with the machine's usual readings. He hauled strangers off the street and asked them to concentrate their minds on his number generator. In effect, he was asking them to try to make it flip more heads than tails.
It was a preposterous idea at the time. The results, however, were stunning and have never been satisfactorily explained.
Again and again, entirely ordinary people proved that their minds could influence the machine and produce significant fluctuations on the graph, 'forcing it' to produce unequal numbers of 'heads' or 'tails'.
What do you think? I saw a program not to long ago about a scientist who built a robotic arm to perform a specific task. The arm was designed to use random numbers of movements to move a coin from one position to another. When a human concentrated on the movement the machine on average performed much fewer steps than when it was left alone.

EvilEwok
Stranger
Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 574


I think this explains why some people are lucky in Las Vegas.
To bad I'm not lucky.
 Now go Home.

Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 28 days, 22 hours


> I think this explains why some people are lucky in Las Vegas.
I think this explains that some people do not understand the meaning of random sequence.
Quote:
The laws of chance dictate that the generators should churn out equal numbers of ones and zeros  which would be represented by a nearly flat line on the graph.
Again, somebody that doesn't understand random sequences. Just because the number of ones and zeros are nearly equal, there can... and will... be long sequences of apparent patterns... With numbers between 0 and 9, a random sequence will have each digit appear by itself one time in ten, while double digits (00, 11, etc) should appear 1 time in 100, etc. Random does not mean pattern free.
> The arm was designed to use random numbers
There is no such thing as a 'random number'. There are random number sequences, but not random numbers.
 Just another spore in the wind.

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,643
Loc: Ontario, Canada


PEAR  Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/
There's a link to the actual research. I've heard a lot of bad things about how they structure the results, though, in order to make the results look more appealing than they are.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

delta9
Active Ingredient
Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 5,390
Loc: California
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months

Re: Time? [Re: trendal]
#3778481  02/14/05 01:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


My REG:
So far using samples of 100 results every half second, it hasn't deviated more than 20% on its own... So if someone wants to try and manipulate over distance, hit me up on IRC
 delta^{9}

newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104

Re: Time? [Re: Seuss]
#3779049  02/14/05 05:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


The arm was designed to use random numbers of movements to move a coin from one position to another.
Was that sentence so incredibly hard to understand? I mean the arm was designed move an object. Instead if it doing so in one steady motion it would move back and forth randomly before it finally placed the object. Say on the first attempt it would use 20 movements while on the second attempt it would use 22 movements. Random number of movements.

EvilEwok
Stranger
Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 574

Re: Time? [Re: Seuss]
#3782043  02/15/05 04:15 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


Quote:
Seuss said: > I think this explains why some people are lucky in Las Vegas.
I think this explains that some people do not understand the meaning of random sequence.
I understand the meaning, I was refering to slot machines.
If the REG theory is true (I'm not saying it is) it could apply to current day slot machines. The machine constantly cycles a random sequence to determine where the reels stop. It selects a value the instant the "spin" button is pressed or as coins enter the machine.
 Now go Home.

Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 28 days, 22 hours


> The [slot] machine constantly cycles a random sequence to determine where the reels stop.
Actually, it doesn't. This is what the casinos want you to think, but it simply isn't true. It is true that winning and loosing follow a random sequence, but the results of the spin are not random. The machines are designed to give "near wins" on losses. This gives the person playing the machine a sense of, "Oh, I was so close... maybe next time!" and they continue to play.
 Just another spore in the wind.

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,643
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: Time? [Re: Seuss]
#3782614  02/15/05 10:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


The machines are designed to give "near wins" on losses.
Do you have any links for this?

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 28 days, 22 hours

Re: Time? [Re: trendal]
#3783033  02/15/05 12:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


> Do you have any links for this?
No, but I used to have friends that worked in the industry that explained it to me. Lemme dig...
http://www.wizardofodds.com/slots/:
Below are some of the biggest myths about slot machines:
* Slot machines stop on any possible set of stops with equal probability
As explained above this is not true of modern single line slot machines. Some stops are much more likely than others.
* Slot machines are programmed to go through a cycle of payoffs. Although the cycle can span thousands of spins once it reaches the end the outcomes will repeat themselves in exactly the same order as the last cycle
This is not true at all. Every trial is random and independent of all past trials.
... from http://vegasreference.com/games/slots/
By the way, each reel is typically weighted differently. That's why you're more likely to get jackpot symbols on the first and second reels (building the suspense) while failing to hit the symbol on the third reel.
... from http://robison.casinocitytimes.com/articles/16803.html
One way of encouraging continued play would be to tease the player by showing the "10X" symbol more frequently above or below the payline than an average of once every 33 1/3 opportunities. I believe that in most cases the probability of winning on any specific single play is random but that the selection of symbols appearing on the screen is not necessarily random.
 Just another spore in the wind.

tak
geo's henchman
Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 3,763
Loc: nowhereland

Re: Time? [Re: Seuss]
#3785082  02/15/05 08:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


If it were to generate 10,000 numbers, each time having a 50/50 chance of being 1 or 0, wouldnt the odds of there being 10,000 1's be the same as 5,000 1's and 5,000 0's? Each instance holding the odd's and not the total outcome itself?
 The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

tak
geo's henchman
Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 3,763
Loc: nowhereland

Re: Time? [Re: tak]
#3785091  02/15/05 08:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


Thats why i play the lotto numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6 because i figure they have the same odd's of being randomly selected as the other 153 have.
 The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

EvilEwok
Stranger
Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 574

Re: Time? [Re: Seuss]
#3786847  02/16/05 01:15 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


Quote:
Seuss said: > The [slot] machine constantly cycles a random sequence to determine where the reels stop.
Actually, it doesn't. This is what the casinos want you to think, but it simply isn't true. It is true that winning and loosing follow a random sequence, but the results of the spin are not random. The machines are designed to give "near wins" on losses. This gives the person playing the machine a sense of, "Oh, I was so close... maybe next time!" and they continue to play.
Here this article explains it way better than I can. http://www.casinogambling.about.com/cs/slots/a/SlotRng.htm
Basically the REG picks a number, Then it looks up that number on a table to determine where the reels stop. So while there might be 4000000 different REG numbers, numbers 1 thru 10000 could all have the same reel stop while the jackpot would only be asigned one REG number.
 Now go Home.

Pinback
Stranger
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 785
Loc: Northern Europe

Re: Time? [Re: tak]
#3788582  02/16/05 11:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) 


No, since the number of ways of making 5000 ones and 5000 zeroes is much greater than the number of ways of making 10000 ones. But for a specific sequence of 5000 ones and 5000 zeroes, the probabilities are the same.

