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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Social Security Privatization
    #3774117 - 02/13/05 02:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

How much is this gonna cost us? I was discussing this with my (rather liberal) family, and they were saying that it would actually increase the tax burden on me, at least in the short term(I forget why exactly). Does anyone know anything about this? As a libertarian, I'll be damn glad when we bury this pyramid scheme known as social security, but I'm worried that maybe this isn't the right way to go about it.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3774189 - 02/13/05 02:58 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Social Security is a total scam and is headed for a cliff. There is no way out of it that is not going to cost anything (the 'trust fund' is a pile of IOUs). The question is, why aren't people smart enough to come to the conclusion that we should cut our losses as soon as possible? Delaying the inevitable will only make it worse and help to ensure that the current taxpayers and recipients will shift the burden to future taxpayers as much as possible (who will receive less than they pay into it).


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3774244 - 02/13/05 03:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Paradigm: I've heard estimates of this range from about $600 billion to $2 trillion. Not cheap at all, no matter how you look at it...

Prosgeopax: It would be much more solvent if they hadn't "borrowed" the Social Security trust fund. To be fair, it hasn't been just the Bush administration who has done this. Still and all, there are no easy answers or quick fixes here, unlike what this administration would have folks to believe....


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3774896 - 02/13/05 06:33 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Back around the year 2000, I started using one brokerage account I have for income. I started buying real estate funds (which pay dividends), real estate investment trusts (REITs) which must pay dividends by law and then, later, closed end bond funds which pay higher dividends than the bonds themselves (using leverage). I recently started buying some oil and gas trusts that pay over 10% dividend yield. I've made so much money I'm thinking that I might be able to retire a lot earlier than I thought I'd be able to. Right now I make enough money from dividends where I could stop working and live off the dividends. Only problem with that is inflation and uncertainty with investments (even if diversified). Energy prices keep going up along with demand for fossil fuels. I continually hear people tell me my method doesn't work or will not keep working, but the more I hear the scepticism the richer I get. A couple people took my advice and bought into REITs and made more money from them then any other investment they have.

My favorite real estate fund is the closed end fund RPF. The corporate bond fund PHK still pays over 9% dividend yield. I also have shares of the oil and/or gas trusts PTF, PGH, BPT, SJT.

You can look up the charts here http://www.bigcharts.com


Edited by Great_Satan (02/13/05 06:37 PM)


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OfflineFreeLaws1_6
No Hippy Here

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Tejas
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3775046 - 02/13/05 07:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Here ya go, some info on bush' plan for us...good ol bushy.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/02/retirement/stofunion_socsec/


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Free Laws: Things to understand before I am Free

1. I am alone
2. There is Nothing
3. I must actualize myself
4. Sex is a tool for pleasure, not status
5. Dependency restricts me
6. Emotions are dangerous if not administered properly



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3775381 - 02/13/05 08:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)


How much is this gonna cost us?

A lot.  Think about all of the bureacracy that will be required to implement and maintain millions of individual accounts.  Not only will this cost a lot to set up, but it will cost a lot to maintain.  I am thinking it would be more intelligent for the Federal government to do the following:

1.  Raise Federal taxes and cut spending(ha!...fat chance) in order to get the extra money to pay back all of the Social Security money that has been looted.  This would ensure Social Security solvency until 2042.

2.  Kick all of the lazy moochers off of the Social Security payroll (there are a lot of them....I have met many of these people).
 
3.  Start investing Social Security monies in anything BUT government bonds.  When people bitch about how this is "risky", merely remind them of how "risky" it will be to get anything out of a government that is bankrupt.

As an aside, I get so damn pissed when people say that "Social Security is not in crisis...it is solvent until 2042".  No it ain't assholes!  All of Social Security's assets have been spent.


As a libertarian, I'll be damn glad when we bury this pyramid scheme known as social security, but I'm worried that maybe this isn't the right way to go about it.

You think Social Security is a mess?  Look at the expected future costs of Medicaid and Medicare.  The old and the poor will bankrupt this country.  That may sound mean but it is true.  If Americans want a government that takes care of the poor, old, and sick, we have to come to the realization that we will have to pay for it.

Considering how the federal government likes to borrow money and is already seven some trillion in debt, I think it is quite possible for them to borrow 1.5 trillion(the amount of Social Security assets) over the next 30 some years in order to pay back Social Security.  So don't worry!  We'll just borrow more money to pay for it!  :rolleyes:


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3775454 - 02/13/05 08:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
If Americans want a government that takes care of the poor, old, and sick, we have to come to the realization that we will have to pay for it.




Too true! And in a broader sense, people want more and better schools, better roads, better trained and better equipped police, more prisons, etc., etc. ad nauseum, yet bitch and moan when anyone suggests raising taxes to pay for all these extra services. Sorry folks, It doesn't work that way... :rolleyes:

Quote:

Considering how the federal government likes to borrow money and is already seven some trillion in debt, I think it is quite possible for them to borrow 1.5 trillion(the amount of Social Security assets) over the next 30 some years in order to pay back Social Security.  So don't worry!  We'll just borrow more money to pay for it!  :rolleyes:




I'm sure the Japanese and Chinese, who finance a lion's share of our debt, will be happy to continue doing so. Of course, we're going to have to pay that back eventually, but that's our grandchildren's problem not ours.... :tongue:


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3775500 - 02/13/05 08:47 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The United States in debt 7 trillion? Well, why don't we just tell everyone we owe that they're beat and dare them to do something about it?


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3775532 - 02/13/05 08:52 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
The United States in debt 7 trillion? Well, why don't we just tell everyone we owe that they're beat and dare them to do something about it?



Because they're investing in the US Dollar, and if we did something like that, they'd stop investing, and the dollar would plummet, creating another Great Depression, possibly worse than the first one.  Thank you, fiat currency! :finger:


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3775549 - 02/13/05 08:56 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

well, government = death to humanity anyway, so it's just a matter of sooner or later, unless we get rid of them all somehow.


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Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3775776 - 02/13/05 10:05 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
The United States in debt 7 trillion? Well, why don't we just tell everyone we owe that they're beat and dare them to do something about it?



Don't forget that some of that debt is owed to local citizens.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: z@z.com]
    #3777510 - 02/14/05 08:01 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

government bonds, yes pay those. Pay little Suzy's savings bond when it's college time...

... just don't pay japan, china, korea, and all the rest of those scumbag countries that don't pay us when they owe us, yet expect to be paid on time when we owe.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3796903 - 02/18/05 03:51 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)


How much is this gonna cost us?

Paradigm,

I suggest you read the "Social Security: A Daring Leap" in the Feb. 14, 2005 issue of Newsweek. It gives a great breakdown of Bush's shitty, expensive, and flawed plan, but it also mercilessly attacks the Democrats for flat out lying when they say there is no Social Security crisis. It is a good read.


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 8,020
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3797230 - 02/18/05 06:57 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

if you want to see what you would have at retirement under this plan, check this calculator out: http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/social_security/

remember, this is money they would take anyways. all you are doing is deciding where 4% of the 12% will go. it would be tough in the short term, but if you are think of your kids and your kids kids, it is a good idea.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 8,020
Re: Social Security Privatization [Re: automan]
    #3797234 - 02/18/05 06:59 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

also, when you die, you can pass it to your chidren. now when you die, whatever is left that you paid in, is just kept in the system (which is notorious for spending as "surplus")


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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