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OfflineToTheSummit
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Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory)
    #3767807 - 02/11/05 07:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

There are amazing guitarists in every catergory of music. Its not even nessecary to make a list of the great guitarists. We could all name a few (in fact, theres been a few threads about it). And this thread is in no way trying to slight any of these masters. But I've had a theory for a while that the majority (not all, mind you) of the people who are truly talented guitarists gravitate towards a certain genre of music, and that genre is jazz.

When I listen to a jazz guitarist I am often amazed at the level of skill. Jazz is a very unforgiving style of music IMO. An accomplished jazz guitarist is one of the best technical players you will hear. An amatuer guitarist can play many types of music and even sound acceptable in most genres. But it takes real skill to play jazz music.

Jazz music is very demanding and seems to require a good amount of knowledge in music theory as well as the technical skill to play. I have never known a jazz musician who couldn't read music and most are comfortable playing from sheet music. And most of the time they can easily switch to rock or country or any other style at will. But very few rock guitarists could sit down and rip out some killer jazz music. And so many of the rock musicians (myself included) have never learned to properly read music.

I know this is a generalization. And again, I'm not in any way trying to say there aren't some truly masterful guitarists who play other genres of music. But I find that people of exceptional natural talent and skill tend to gravitate towards the jazz world. Its almost as if jazz is the "musicians music".

Any thoughts? Am I way wrong about this? Or have you seen similar trends?


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


Edited by ToTheSummit (02/11/05 08:00 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3767924 - 02/11/05 08:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm taking Jazz guitar lessons this semester. I have to agree that it's some tough shit to play.


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InvisibleJim
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: Silversoul]
    #3769118 - 02/12/05 12:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Its all what you practice. A lot of jazz musicians can't read music, but they have a phenomenal ear. I can read music, but I never do. I learned piano and trumpet by reading music and practicing. Now when I hear something i can just play it. I'm not claiming to be able to play anything on the spot, but I can sit down and figure it out in a relatively short matter of time..


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afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.


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Invisiblespores
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3769285 - 02/12/05 01:19 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I totally agree, jazz musicians are fucking amazing and probably the most versatile as far as being able to jump to different styles. being able to keep up with a bunch of tricky chord/key/time changes while improvising nice, melodic lines is ALOT harder than they make it sound. if you can do that, you can do the rock/metal thing in your sleep along with a whole lot more. definitely musicians music.

DH


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3769509 - 02/12/05 02:10 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

totally agreed.

gratefuljim, name 5 great jazz musicians that cant read music. i think you would be very hard pressed to do it.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflinePsillyNilly
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: automan]
    #3769533 - 02/12/05 02:18 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I read an article in a music magazine of the 100 most talanted guitarist and I remember #1 being Jimi Hendrix.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3769574 - 02/12/05 02:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)


I think David Gillmore of Pink Floyd is the best guitarist. Pink Floyd is somewhat jazzy.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3770222 - 02/12/05 08:41 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It may be the most fancy and difficult kind of music, but it's not necessarily the best to listen to or play, only if you are insecure and like to wank.


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youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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Offlinejoecrab
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3770396 - 02/12/05 10:41 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

musicians that can play jazz and/or bluegrass are pretty much unstoppable


--------------------
and the moral of the story is, don't try to meditate on methamphetamines


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: joecrab]
    #3770415 - 02/12/05 10:56 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

The reason Jazz players can jump genres so easily is because jazz is basicly music theory played.  Everything from the rythems to the scales are very complex when someone like that gets asked to say play some zeppelin for instance its a breeze. 

Now as far as the "greatest technical guitarists" go, I have to disagree that they all gravitate to the Jazz.  Classical is where the best ones are in my opinion.  Andrew Segovia could play as fast as any metal guitarist without a pick on a nylon string guitar.  And as far as expressiveness goes there are few guitars as expressive as the classical.  I play classical and read sheet music(its not that hard get a work book that makes you write down what fret equals what note like a thousands times and you'll figure it out too :smile: ), and ive attended a classical guitar conference in florida, and watched concerts of 10 or so of the worlds greatest classicla guitarists play.  It is amazing.  If you ever see a classical guitarist coming to play in your area its worth going.  The tickets(if there are any) are usually dirt cheap like 7-12 bucks tops.  Anyways im rambling.  Peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: blaze2]
    #3770455 - 02/12/05 11:28 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

To Master Flamenco guitar suppsoedly takes 13 years or something. I love jazz, and always thought jazz guitarists pwned all other guitarists. Flamenco is pretty jazz oriented, but it is every possible rhythm of strum, whereas jazz guitarists play/dont play notes with respect to rhythm. The ultimate style of guitar profiecency is Flamenco.


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InvisibleJim
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: automan]
    #3770859 - 02/12/05 02:39 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

http://teaching.arts.usyd.edu.au/history/hsty3080/3rdYr3080/Dizzy/DIZZY%20WEB%20I/cult8.html

Excerpt from Dizzy Gillespie's Autobiography
To Be, Or Not ... To Bop

�The Cult of Bebop�

'Another story is that we looked down on guys who couldn�t read [music]. Erroll Garner couldn�t read and we certainly didn�t look down on him, even though he never played our type of music.'

yeah it is hard to find them that could never read music. it is easier to find those who learned to play and improv and then later on learned to read music.



--------------------
Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit!

afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.


Edited by GratefulJim (02/12/05 02:45 PM)


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InvisibleLetto
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: blaze2]
    #3770913 - 02/12/05 02:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
Now as far as the "greatest technical guitarists" go, I have to disagree that they all gravitate to the Jazz.  Classical is where the best ones are in my opinion.  Andrew Segovia could play as fast as any metal guitarist without a pick on a nylon string guitar.  And as far as expressiveness goes there are few guitars as expressive as the classical.  I play classical and read sheet music(its not that hard get a work book that makes you write down what fret equals what note like a thousands times and you'll figure it out too :smile: ), and ive attended a classical guitar conference in florida, and watched concerts of 10 or so of the worlds greatest classicla guitarists play.  It is amazing.  If you ever see a classical guitarist coming to play in your area its worth going.  The tickets(if there are any) are usually dirt cheap like 7-12 bucks tops.  Anyways im rambling.  Peace

blaze2




Andres*

:smile:

The only drawback to classical guitar, IMHO, is that the majority of solid repetoire pieces were written for piano.

I think classical guitar is the most technically demanding genre of guitar playing, but jazz is more demanding, compositionally. I can sit in a room for 8 hours a day practicing classical pieces, having no knowledge of music theory, and I will eventually become good. Hell, I suck at sight reading, I just memorize a piece then play it with expression and it sounds good. A jazz player can't do that. They can work on getting the chops, but then they also need the compositional/theory knowledge, and the ability to spontaneously play and improvise off a theme.

Jazz gives the players a freedom not to be restricted by the sheet music and just to play. I think that scares a lot of classical players, because when asked to improvise, they go nowhere quick, or end up repeating things. I noticed my electric playing became stale after I started playing classical all of the time.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: Jim]
    #3770914 - 02/12/05 02:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

yep, because once you learn how to improv, the best way to get better is to learn to read/write music so you can transcribe solos and heads to see how they relate to the changes.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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Offlinedesuka
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3771809 - 02/12/05 08:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

JoeCrab, very interesting name and funny, is sort of correct and
makes me smile. What's jazz and country? Not much difference...
Blaze2, I have no understanding. It's simply a POV. "Jazz is
theory played". God awful view. Jazz theory came from experiment
and folks, people that play something. Newness comes from do'ers.
Someone wrote it down; traditionally. There are many greats that
did... write it down. Bach wrote jazz! Just not our beats. To think
that modern society is truly that original, is a serious mistake.
Arrogance is ultimately a crime that can not be prosecuted. But may
be coming soon! This argument, I could tear up! Ask what you want.
I am not winded. X=X most of the time. The newness comes from x=Y,y
z,t,... or whatever view. Jazz hasn't broken a traditional rule,
really, since Bach. All that exists, now, has really already been
done. Just have to do the work to prove it. What doesn't exist, to
most, is being hidden on purpose.


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Offlinedesuka
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: desuka]
    #3771817 - 02/12/05 08:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

To answer the subject...
To their grave.


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OfflineMinimalist
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: PsillyNilly]
    #3773162 - 02/13/05 06:23 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsillyNilly said:
I read an article in a music magazine of the 100 most talanted guitarist and I remember #1 being Jimi Hendrix.




Well shit! I guess this settles it! Everyone, time to go home.. Rolling Stone has voted Jimi Hendrix the greatest guitarist of all time and we all know how valid their opinions and polls are.


--------------------
You've started a fire, you've started a fire you can't put out
You've burned your bridges, can't go back from where you came
Vision is failing, just writhe and burn out of control
No use pretending, slither back into your hole


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: Minimalist]
    #3773728 - 02/13/05 11:51 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Minimalist said:
Quote:

PsillyNilly said:
I read an article in a music magazine of the 100 most talanted guitarist and I remember #1 being Jimi Hendrix.





Well shit! I guess this settles it! Everyone, time to go home.. Rolling Stone has voted Jimi Hendrix the greatest guitarist of all time and we all know how valid their opinions and polls are.



:lol:
Yeah, gotta love those Rolling Stone lists!  Thier idea of greatness is popularity.  I think they go out and just ask 'Joe Moron' on the street what he thinks and put a list together that way.


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3773775 - 02/13/05 12:11 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Guitar World did a top 100 guitarist tournement and Hendrix won, but only by the tie breaking online vote he tied with some jazz guy :smile: I think his name was Wes Reinhart.

Like i said tho i think classical guitarist are the best TECHNICAL players.  Not to say they are machine like(some are), but that they do so much with so little.  Jazz guitarists are probrobly better on the whole but as far as the simple technical aspect i give it to the Classical guys.

And yes Jazz music is music theory played, because of all the different genres Jazz pushes theory furthest IMO.  Music theory isnt just sheet music and stuff on paper man.  Any time you play something in a scale music theory is at work.  Jazz just utilizes just about every facet of it.

I agree that classical guitarists cant always improvise, but some can.  THere is a guitarist named Roland Dyens he starts off every performance with a improvisation in the classical style.  THey are full blown wiht bass lines harmonics chords its pretty amazing to just watch him make up a peice on the spot.  BUT he is also moving more and more into Jazz so there you go :smile:

Lastly Bach did not write Jazz goddamn your ignorant he wrote Baroque(sp?) peices.  Jazz was not invented for another couple hundred years.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Where most of the truly talented guitarists go (a theory) [Re: blaze2]
    #3773875 - 02/13/05 12:59 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
Guitar World did a top 100 guitarist tournement and Hendrix won, but only by the tie breaking online vote he tied with some jazz guy :smile: I think his name was Wes Reinhart.




I think you mean Django Reinhart (sp?)? He was Julian Bream's biggest influence when he picked up the guitar.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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