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OfflineMojo_Risin
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Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
    #3764290 - 02/10/05 11:36 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Clarinet Concerto in A major, K.622 - Adagio is what I am currently listening to.

I just also viewed the film 'Amadeus', which is about the man himself. I recommend it, for it is a well done film in many respects:acting, setting, plot...etc.

Any fellow Mozart listener's care to share some information?


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #3764633 - 02/11/05 01:14 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not a big fan of Mozart. It's obviously amazing music from an amazing man, but I just can't get into it. I like more accessable composers like Bach, Sate, or Beethoven (of course! The rock and roll of classical! LOL!). Chopin has some really trippy stuff too, but some his peices (i forget which ones) sound too much like finger/scale exercises to enjoy.

I have to admit that I don't know much about classical, but I do enjoy it! It's great driving music! LOL! My g/f is a classical piano major so I learn a lot from her, but I don't know enough to have an in depth discussion.

But I do love the idea of mathematical relationships resulting in melodic beauty! Musical science is fucking cool! It's too bad that there are more people who "just go with it" than people who actually understand the theory behind their music in order to enhance it. As an amateur guitar player I "just go with it", but I don't pretend that my songs are anything more than folk music.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #3764671 - 02/11/05 01:28 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Not too much to add, really, but I do love Mozart! Especially his piano concertos. And I loved "Amadeus" as well! :laugh:


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: dr0mni]
    #3765152 - 02/11/05 03:30 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

As an amateur guitar player I "just go with it", but I don't pretend that my songs are anything more than folk music.


what the hell is wrong with 'folk music'? I for one think that all the crazy math and complexity behind Western music only serves to alienate people from it, making it less accessible, and making those who understand the theory at risk of feeling holier than thou and elitist. please note that I play classical guitar and know the theory up to grade 8 or so, and it's all I can do to avoid the pitfalls of feeling cooler than people who don't understand theory like I do.

as for the movie 'amadeus', I heard that it doesn't represent his early life very well, which some consider as key to his later years. remember, he died at age 35, and wrote his first piece of music at age six or four or whatever. also his dad was a total soccer mom, if you know what I mean, and was super pushy and lived vicariously through his successes, or so I read, and the movie didn't delve very deeply into that at all. plus Robert Downy Jr is pretty annoying, wouldn't you say. actually he's pretty good, I retract that


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Invisiblespores
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3765760 - 02/11/05 09:39 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

mozart is good stuff, but yeah, amadeus was made to be an entertaining movie, not a historically accurate one.

Quote:

all the crazy math and complexity behind Western music only serves to alienate people from it, making it less accessible, and making those who understand the theory at risk of feeling holier than thou and elitist.




heh, that's a pretty dumb opinion :tongue:. but I guess if it makes you feel like you don't need to learn more theory and you're happy that way that's alright.  don't be a hater of those that do feel the need to know all they can though, I've yet to meet anyone that does it just so they can talk about stuff you don't understand :smirk:.

if you know music theory, you know it's very logical and really not that complex, that's the beauty of it. 

DH


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: spores]
    #3766061 - 02/11/05 12:00 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Zeke, if you remember in my other post I said that "Energy always takes the path of least resistance, and so does music." There is nothing wrong with folk music, I never said there was. 99% of all music is folk music. But folk music is still based on the same mathematic principals (as I'm sure you know), it's just not composed with them in mind.

Some people think they are special because they can make a catchy diddy on the guitar (Like those crappy fucking pop-rock bands on the radio). I may be creative and write good songs (in my opinion) but I know that I'm not composing, I'm barely writing. All I do is pluck random chords until I find something that sounds good! LOL! I would love to be able to learn some theory, but I just don't have the ambition. I haven't even played the guitar in like months!


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3766570 - 02/11/05 02:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

heh, that's a pretty dumb opinion.

that's a prety strong statement.

but I guess if it makes you feel like you don't need to learn more theory and you're happy that way that's alright.

I know lots of theory. I use it all the time, when listening to and composing music. I just think it's laid out in this seemingly acane way, and I know lots of folks who are turned off by it, needlessly. lemme guess DH, you know shitloads of theory and stand behind it proudly? good for you, I'm not condemning you.

don't be a hater of those that do feel the need to know all they can though, I've yet to meet anyone that does it just so they can talk about stuff you don't understand .

you've obviously never been in a Faculty of Music


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Invisiblephalloidin

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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3767091 - 02/11/05 04:53 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Mozart's Requiem is amazing


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Invisiblespores
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3767260 - 02/11/05 05:23 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:

yup, I stand by what I said, it is a dumb opinion.  judging by how long classical music (and music theory) has been around and how popular it still is.  it's pretty much the opposite of inaccessible, it's fucking everywhere and people around the world still listen to and use it. 

no one said anything about folk music being good or bad. but if I remember correctly, for whatever reason, you somehow pulled out of thin air the idea musicians that know their shit are at risk of being holier than thou and elitist.  Like people that know their stuff have no right to not want to jam with or teach people that don't :smirk:.

as was mentioned above and I'm sure you're aware, music theory is applicable and used in much folk music as well, so I really don't see what point you were trying to make with what you said. is it bad and putting you in danger of being a holier than thou elitist when you're using theory without thinking about it or only when you know the theory behind what you're playing?  heh.

Quote:

You said:
please note that I play classical guitar and know the theory up to grade 8 or so, and it's all I can do to avoid the pitfalls of feeling cooler than people who don't understand theory like I do.





Quote:

I read:
I learned some music theory to play classical guitar, but I know enough now and anyone that knows more is at risk of me calling them elitists.




since you asked, I wouldn't say I know shitloads of theory, I know enough to get by in most situations, but what does that matter?

seems like music school faculty (I assume that's what you're talking about) would have the job of teaching, they talk about things people can't understand in order to help them understand.  not to be holier than thou and elitist.  or maybe I just don't understand this simple concept because I never was faculty, yup that's obviously the case :rolleyes:.

guitarists crack me up.

sorry for going off topic in your thread mojo, ima go play rondo alla turca :smile:

DH


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: spores]
    #3767766 - 02/11/05 07:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

oookay, here's what happened as I see it.

Quote:

dr0mni said: It's too bad that there are more people who "just go with it" than people who actually understand the theory behind their music in order to enhance it. As an amateur guitar player I "just go with it", but I don't pretend that my songs are anything more than folk music.




I reacted strongly to this... probably too strongly. it sounds like dr0mni thinks that simply having a 'feel' for music, without technical knowledge, isn't 'good' enough, or as 'as good'. at least that was my interpretation. I come across this opinion a lot. this is something I feel strongly about because I taught myself guitar by ear for almost the first half of my guitar-playing 'career', and this self-teaching was undervalued by a lot of professionals I encountered. I came to develop a mistrust for their vaunted Theory. later I started learning it, and came to see its usefulness. please note I am not saying theory is useless or a waste of time. far from it.

then what I think happened is, you reacted strongly to what I said...perhaps too strongly. for whatever your personal reasons are, or just because I'm not always the clearest communicator.

Quote:

DH said: no one said anything about folk music being good or bad.




dr0mni said he doesn't pretend that his music is "anything more than folk music" which I took to be at least slightly disparaging. he also said "I may be creative and write good songs (in my opinion) but I know that I'm not composing, I'm barely writing." I don't see the difference at all! do you DH?

when someone writes (composes) music, they pick what sounds best to them, in the context of whatever they're trying to do. am I right? just because they don't know the complicated names of each chord they play, or whether it's a rondo or a fugue, doesn't matter, as long as the listener reacts to it and is affected by it. What's the purpose of music? forgive me for trying to answer an unanswerable question in one sentence, but I think the purpose is to please the player and the listener. if not please, then affect. the more profoundly the listener is affected, the 'better' or, if you like, the more 'successful' it was. is that far off?

the reason I'm bothering to reply is that I think we're arguing about inconsequentials, and fundamentally we agree.

Quote:

DH said: seems like music school faculty (I assume that's what you're talking about) would have the job of teaching, they talk about things people can't understand in order to help them understand.




that's true, however that's not what I was talking about. I said Faculty of Music, perhaps should simply have said Music School. I was talking about what I perceive as the majority of students in music school, and how they comport themselves regarding the theory they've learned.

edit: damn, I keep forgetting to say my main point, which is not that theory is dumb, or useless, or whatever. instead, my point is that it makes me sad to see people turned off of music just because they don't understand the theory, and they think it's vital or something. music should be enjoyed by as many people as possible, and not just listened to, but played by them as well. don't let your lack of theory stop you from playing music.

Quote:

DH said: guitarists crack me up.



aren't you a guitarist?

Quote:

DH said: yup, I stand by what I said, it is a dumb opinion.



I take it it's your opinion that some opinions are dumber than others?


Edited by Zekebomb (02/11/05 08:37 PM)


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Invisiblespores
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3769270 - 02/12/05 01:17 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, I'm a guitarist. what I meant by guitarists crack me up is that you'll never run into a good player of any other instrument giving advice suggesting knowledge of music theory makes 'those who understand [the theory] at risk of feeling holier than thou and elitist'.  but you run into decent guitarists talking that kinda shit pretty frequently, I do find that kind of amusing.  here in reality, guitar is an instrument just like all the others and there's no good excuse for not knowing your shit as well as those who play other instruments well do.

I dunno man, I never heard of a guitar teacher discouraging learning by ear or had any encounters with theory nerds that tried to confuse me with their knowledge where I went to school, my condolences if you actually have to deal with such things though. I could see how that would leave a bad taste in your mouth so to speak.

I agree with you on most of what you write, I just think what I already covered from your first post was wrong to say and thought I'd mention it.  I don't think anyone should quit the guitar because they don't know music theory, and I've never heard of anyone doing so.  but anyone serious about playing their instrument should learn music theory at some point, and if you want to be the best you can, you should learn all you can. to say otherwise is, well, dumb, for lack of a better word.

Quote:

I take it it's your opinion that some opinions are dumber than others?



replace "your opinion" with "fact" and "dumber than others" with "wrong" and I'll agree :wink:

no hard feelings here and it's nothing personal, I just thought it needed said, carry on.

DH


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: spores]
    #3770707 - 02/12/05 01:38 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

wouldn't it be cool if there was a new kind of musical analysis that could be used with all our computer generated music to achieve musical technicality as never before? It will happen eventually. I'm sure it's in it's infant stages right now!

I hearn shpongle for the first time a few weeks ago. I downloaded "Shiva Space Technology" and it's fucking awsome! One of the best electronica songs I've heared in a while. Something cool that I noticed was that near the end of the song he used a clavichord effect and played something that sounded very much like Baroque. Then the tone of the sounds change to some crazy vibrato shit while still keeping that baroque sound! It's quite obvious that this dude probably has some background in classical music and it really shows in his work!

Usually when I think of techno I think of a few repetitive notes that don't even form chords (which is cool, don't get me wrong! I love that tribal shit!). That's why it was so refreshing to hear classical theory put in a techno/electronica context. It blended really well!

But I hate that shit where some rapper will take a few measures from something like fur elise or Carmen, but a beat to it and repeat the same fucking thing throught the whole song! Most morons will think it sounds classy or edgy, but I think it sounds fucking retarted! It sounds akward when a song was once dynamic and someone remixes it, only playing the catchy parts. Tribal beats are cool, folk music is cool, and overly analytical music is cool. But They can't just be thrown together without co-ordination!

Well I'm sure someone will dispute something I said here, so I will look foward to the argument.


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InvisibleJim
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: dr0mni]
    #3770845 - 02/12/05 02:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I can not stand the laughing in Amadeus.

I am more into the hammerings of Ludwig Van.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: dr0mni]
    #3776428 - 02/14/05 12:14 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I hate that shit where some rapper will take a few measures from something like fur elise or Carmen, but a beat to it and repeat the same fucking thing throught the whole song! Most morons will think it sounds classy or edgy, but I think it sounds fucking retarted!

what if you don't recognize the snippet of music? is it still retarded, or retarded to the same degree? do you dislike hearing fur elise in a hip hop song only because you recognize it, and therefore you know how much of the original piece of music is not being represented?


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3777188 - 02/14/05 04:09 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

True! Recognition does plays a big part. But the song still sucked anyways, even for rap. It's a melody based around a chord progression that doesn't progress! I mean come ON! I haven't really heard that carmen one the whole way through. I think they did a remake of the whole opera (into a Hip-Hopera) which would probably be pretty interesting actually.

What about that one rap song with the "Riders on the Storm" as the music? I feel like they desicrated it! That recording was a snapshot of increadible creativity and spontanaety that the Doors had, and too hear it laid down, remixed, planned out... The Doors were a Jam band! Their songs were never the same twice! Yet here is that snapshot taken and presented in a way that makes it seem like that recording IS that song when it simply isn't so.

You can't take something and try and make it into something completely different. You can't compose jamband music, you can't jam out a symphony.

Am I still typing... God I think too much!


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