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OfflineViaggio
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Earth and Life
    #3762713 - 02/10/05 05:57 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

I'm sure this has been brought up countless times.

Compared to what we have observed about the universe, our planet and its properties is such an anomaly. The factors required to duplicate Earth and Life is nearly infinite. And whenever I'm lucky enough to grasp the concept of the universe, the bigger picture, I feel some sort of unique rush...like an epiphany or revelation but ten fold. The feeling is short lived. Losing sight of the bigger picture is so easy because we're such tiny and insignificant parts of something that's greater than ourselves, something that never ends. The feeling of awe can only describe a fraction of its beauty. That's the truth.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Viaggio]
    #3762977 - 02/10/05 06:47 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

""tiny and insignificant parts of something that's greater than ourselves""

that's the spirit!  :grin: :thumbup:

:heart:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Viaggio]
    #3763812 - 02/10/05 09:05 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Viaggio said:
The factors required to duplicate Earth and Life is nearly infinite. 
And whenever I'm lucky enough to grasp the concept of the universe, the bigger picture, I feel some sort of unique rush...




A HUUUUUUUUUGE XeRoX? copy machine might do the trick...?
Then you could grasp as many copies of the "big pictures" as you want....  :grin:

(Maybe it's the toner that is giving you the "rush"...?)    :lol:  (Perhaps open a window....?)   


Just think how "tiny and insignificant" an atom would feel....  :shiftyeyes:
It would be much more difficult to hold a copy of an atom in "the little picture"....    :grin:

:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3763951 - 02/10/05 09:32 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

someone please locate and post the Drake equation... I'm too lazy


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3764144 - 02/10/05 10:06 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

The Drake equation states that:

N = R* X fp X ne X fl X fi X fc X L

where:

N is the number of extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to communicate

and

R* is the rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp is the fraction of those stars which have planets
ne is average number of planets which can potentially support life per star that has planets
fl is the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop life
fi is the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc is the fraction of the above which are willing and able to communicate
L is the expected lifetime of such a civilization


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Ravus]
    #3764193 - 02/10/05 11:05 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Well, that looks pretty damn cool...!   
---It would be cooler if it spelled something profound....  :grin:  :tongue:

BUT, with this theory, wouldn't you first have to proove that THERE IS other life forms out there before you can actually make a theory about it....?   

Therein lies the dilema, or perhaps a stalemate....  Creative idea tho~....  :grin:


--------------------
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3764892 - 02/11/05 02:27 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

no no, you misunderstand, I think you started from the wrong end.

you START with star formation. there are currently 100 billion stars in the Milky Way (R*). 20% to 50% of those are estimated to have planetary systems (fp). each planetary system is estimated to have 1 to 5 planets capable of supporting life as we know it (ne).

here (fl) it's tricky... estimates range from 100% (life develops anywhere it can develop) to just over 0% (earth's life is a huge fluke). then the same thing with the liklihood of life evolving to be intelligent (as we understand intelligence) (fi). Estimates range from 100% toclose to 0%.

then how many intelligent races have both the means and the desire to communicate is estimated to be 10% to 20% (fc). don't ask me how they came up with those figures. finally, the chance that this supposed intelligent alien civilization will be alive at the same time as us, and how long they will be actively trying to communicate relative to how long they are alive in total.

This is a tough one. from http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html : "If we take Earth as an example, the expected lifetime of our Sun and the Earth is roughly 10 billion years. So far we've been communicating with radio waves for less than 100 years. How long will our civilization survive? Will we destroy ourselves in a few years like some predict or will we overcome our problems and survive for millennia? If we were destroyed tomorrow the answer to this question would be 1/100,000,000th. If we survive for 10,000 years the answer will be 1/1,000,000th."

go to that site, it has a do-it-yourself Drake equation generator.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3765602 - 02/11/05 08:07 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Now, I don't mean to discredit, I have not even looked into the link.... 

I don't wanna~ frustrate either....    I am not at all trying to imply that there is no other life possible....  But I am having a hard time trying to rationalize us being a "fluke" the more I seem to dig....    I dunno~....?

The error I see in the formula (again, from a surface perception with "my logic") has to do with the limited perception of size and time having boundaries scientifically defined by man's 2-Dimensional, or even 3-Dimensional Universe....    MAN'S "perception of reality"....

What if each atom, if we could look at each one on a planetary scale of perception....  Of coarse, you would have to slow each sub-atomic spinning body down to the speed of "human comprehention" - (Fucking SLOOOOOWWWW)  :lol:   

NOW, to comprehend a Timeless speck of dust of "our perception" as being a whole universe in itself....  Tell me how that would fit into an equation like that...?  And what of us being within our universe - to be a speck of dust within another's perception of reality....?    How far do you WANT to perceive....?  It is a matter of choice to make those limits....

Do you wanna go smaller and slow it down, or zoom way out and speed it up....?    OR, just keep things FLAT per our relative perception....?    How do make a formula for infinaty without defining relative time/size/speed, and NOT screw up it's accuracy....?

Seems arrogant to me....  Eeeehhhh....?  Tooooo Linear....?  What is, just IS....  And we can't even figure out what that IS....?

I *think* there is a MUCH bigger "picture" than what our current physical realities may allow us to see and perceive....



But, this is "my logic" (most likely, flawed)....  I am not really educated in this crap, I just don't like "boxes"....  :shrug:    I understand the logic that I understand....    Eeehhh....?    Maybe not a solid basis for anything, but what is....?  It is all so fuckin fuzzy....!    :lol:  :smirk:

Aaaahhhhh, GOOOOooooooo.....!    :tongue2:

:sun:  :heart:

I am glad to be able to perceive a cookie....!    Coookie GOOOOD....!!!!  :grin:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3765806 - 02/11/05 10:05 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

well...
the "fractal" mathematical model/picture of recurring patters as the scale is zoomed in & out may have some correlates in physical reality, but...
there are (or at least seem to be) upper & lower limits... (yeah, the image of our galaxy being a child's toy marble in a game of cosmic cats-eyes & aggies (from the movie MIB) is an interesting concept, but we know pretty much where our galaxy is in relationship to local group & local supergroup...)

& zooming in, eventually you reach the level of subatomic particles, & they start to display a very few distinguishing characteristics (y'know - charge, mass, spin, strangeness, charm, up/downness...)

as a philosophical exercise, it can be fun to imagine little beings living on the "surface" of an electron orbiting about an atomic nucleus, or our solar system or galaxy being a cell or a particle is some unimaginably vast organism, but... prolly not "real", mmmmkay?

~~~~~
now, as for "life" occurring in our "real" universe at large...
well, most of the universe is bloody cold (like ~ 3 deg K) with little pockets of matter here & there getting hot enough to do the ol' fusion trick & poof - stars (some cold or "cool", some medium (like ol' sol) & some really really hot) all over the place... but still, the universe is mostly empty, & cold...

but at the interface between the cosmic coldness, & the little local fires, there is always a boundary where local conditions permit water to be liquid... & if there are pebbles (like earth or jupiter's moons, etc.) in the right zone for local atmospheres to accumulate (thus allowing the H2) to exist as a liquid), some sort of organic chemistry is almost inevitable... (& CHON is comet-stuff, after all... )& given "enough" time something "interesting" is prolly gonna cook up pretty much anywhere it can...

but it is a long way from proto-bacteria to critters that can look up & ponder how they got here & where they're going...
but..
here WE are...


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Offlinegnrm23
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"time cube" ///roger mcguinn [Re: gnrm23]
    #3765817 - 02/11/05 10:13 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

The planet was molded from great clouds of dust
Then molten eruptions would burst through the crust
A new sun was shining and covered the earth
The heavens all knowing acknowledged the birth

The seas were forming before life began
It would take a long time to crawl on the land
The rivers were waiting for the arrival
The lowlands promised a place of survival

Man came from the mud the ooze and the slime
An integral part of a master design
He gazed at the stars and the moon in the sky
Some knew they were going and some wondered why

Man made a beginning and went to the moon
A few fellow creatures predicted earth's doom
His colonization out into space
Is more than a great leap for the whole human race

Some dream of a journey to the neighboring star
And some will not listen they say it's too far
He'll create a machine and launch it someday
To reach Alpha Centauri four light years away

Then evolve to the stars of our galaxy
And write a new chapter of man's destiny
Man came from the mud the ooze and the slime
An integral part of a master design


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: gnrm23]
    #3766099 - 02/11/05 12:13 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

gnrm23 said:
well...
the "fractal" mathematical model/picture of recurring patters as the scale is zoomed in & out may have some correlates in physical reality, but...
there are (or at least seem to be) upper & lower limits... (yeah, the image of our galaxy being a child's toy marble in a game of cosmic cats-eyes & aggies (from the movie MIB) is an interesting concept, but we know pretty much where our galaxy is in relationship to local group & local supergroup...)

& zooming in, eventually you reach the level of subatomic particles, & they start to display a very few distinguishing characteristics (y'know - charge, mass, spin, strangeness, charm, up/downness...)

as a philosophical exercise, it can be fun to imagine little beings living on the "surface" of an electron orbiting about an atomic nucleus, or our solar system or galaxy being a cell or a particle is some unimaginably vast organism, but... prolly not "real", mmmmkay?




"Prolly not "real""....  HHhhhmmmm....  Now, I did not claim to be an expert, as I am not....  Just as (and I am going to assume out of ignorance) that the scientists did not actually know for certain what kind of actual forces could be gotten out of an atom until they actually did find out....  Or did they know....?  If they did, I plead ignorance....  The quark names sound familiar, but I think the names were changed to protect the innocent....  :tongue:

I DO however "understand" Fractal models, and their similarities to life....  (I think)  :tongue2:  In a computer & program based model (limitation(s)#1), with a CONSTANT mathematical equation (limitation#2) - There do seem to be "outer" zoom limits based on the single equation used in the model....  But as I know, and removing Limitations#1 only, you can zoom in forever....  Forever mutating and evolving....  (Again, as I "know"....)    But what happens when you take out all "Limitations" and apply them to "infinity"....?    Perhaps nothing....  Perhaps there truly IS nothing past such things as "Strange" & "Charm"....?    I have no idea, they are just vague concepts to me based on "man's" relative perspective and data based on man made measuring devices....    So, those quarks break CLEANY apart with no chips or fragments left behind....?    Who is to know....?    And who is to say that those very quarks could not be spit yet again....?  And yet again....?    And yet again....?    And yet again....?    And yet again....?   

I may be way way way way way WAY wrong - and openly admit it if I missed that class at the college I didn't go to....  I have no basis, just thinking out loud to what I do know....  I know when man can no longer explain something, he makes INTUITIVE theories based off of man made logic and data....  And it sits unchallenged until it is known as "FACT"....  (Am I right, or wrong...??)    (Prolly~ wrong....!  :tongue:)

Fractals are VERY beautiful....    :smile:  Wanna see mine...?  :grin:


2D "Regular" Fractals....    "FLAT", and "LIMITED"....  :smirk:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...28ec4788a78a276



NOW, this is where it gets interesting....  :evil:    Take a 2D Fractal and APPLY it to an unthinkable 3D world/realm....  Yet more infinity, that was not yet discovered....  A PaRaDoX within itself, and a door to a whole new world is opened....  Eeehhh....?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...28ec4788a78a276

As I knew it, it was not yet "discovered" by man, thus DID NOT EXIST.... 
But I found that it DID exist....?  Just me...?  Nnnaaawwwww, couldn't be JUST ME....?    :shocked:

What does it all mean....?  I dunno~, math is beautiful....?  :shrug:


:tongue2:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3766536 - 02/11/05 02:34 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

I *think* there is a MUCH bigger "picture" than what our current physical realities may allow us to see and perceive....


when I hear people say stuff like that, I generally agree with them, but at the same time I think, so what? is it relevant?

"there are things out there, man, that would make your head spin, but at this point they have no effect on your life whatsoever, nor can you perceive them with today's technology." aaaand??


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3766942 - 02/11/05 04:12 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

OK, let me rephraze.... 

I think it *could* be possible that manmade data analyzing gadgets are not up to optimal quality to percieve past what we have been shown for the points leading to this EXACT moment in time....  BUT, there may or may not be newly collected data of perhaps ten more miles of space in every direction being crunched and assembled into tangable data plots as we speak....  As a civilization, I myself wait in anticipation....  :wink:  But again, we have yet to find out in perhaps just a few more relative moments....    :shrug:

(MUCH Sarcasm, it is not relevant at ALL, but humor can be fun.... :tongue:Aaaaaand..??  Literally....!

I still think math is beautiful....  :grin:

:heart:  :peace:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleLetto
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Viaggio]
    #3768837 - 02/11/05 11:21 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

To try and explain how everything works perfectly like it (seemingly) does in our universe, there is a theory that many physicists support. They say that the perfection of our universe is a result of the fundamental physical constants (the speed of light, electron charge, elementary particles' rest masses, Planck's constant, etc) being flawlessly related to each other, to create the physical reality of our universe, let alone to support life.

Now the probability of these things working out so perfectly is unimaginably small (nearly infinite as you put it). The only way for physicists to explain this is by hypothesizing that there are an enormous (infinte?) number of universes, all with varying fundamental physical constants. Change even a neutron's rest mass by the tiniest fraction, and everything goes to hell.

So these physicists say that the only way to explain the nearly impossible probability of our Universe coming together the way it is can only be explained by having an infinite number of universes. When I first heard of this theory, I thought it was a cop out and shouldn't even be considered in the scientific realm (you know me :smile:). I figured these scientists solved everything in our Universe and were now reverting to mysticism when looking for the answer to "Why?"

I've been thinking about this for the past month or so, and the theory is perfectly plausible, though there's no possibility of ever having evidence to support or discredit it. For those who renounce all forms of mysticism, this could be an explanation of our Universe coming together perfectly.

The question I've come up with from all of this is: Is it just chance that these physical constants fit together so flawlessly, or is there something else that causes them to relate to each other?


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Letto]
    #3768981 - 02/11/05 11:57 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Is it just chance that these physical constants fit together so flawlessly?



Quote:

nearly impossible probability...by having an infinite number of universes.



So it's inevitable  :thumbup:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Earth and Life [Re: Viaggio]
    #3769206 - 02/12/05 01:02 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

nothing, is(!) inevitable.. ha-ha
yeah that's sound! heehaw

:grin: :thumbup:


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