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Offlinefreddurgan
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Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe?
    #3760904 - 02/10/05 10:50 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I'm just curious as to how much actual research has gone into Salvia, as opposed to forum word of mouth. I'm at the point where I "know" that Salvia is perfectly safe, non-neurotoxic etc, but really if you asked me for a source I would say Erowid or Shroomery, but where did they get their information?

Is Salvia researched at all? As potent a plant as it is I wonder how it's that safe.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3760967 - 02/10/05 11:12 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

In mice, a concentrated extract of Salvia divinorum is approximately as toxic as vitamin B3[16],[17]. This is less than half as toxic as dextromethorphan, and ten times less toxic than atropine, both of which are available without prescription, as discussed above[18].

....
Valdes, L.J. "The pharmacognosy of Salvia divinorum (Epling and Jativa-M.): An Investigation of Ska Maria Pastora". PhD thesis, 1983, University of Michigan.

Fig. 22, p.146: mouse LD50 = 340 mg/kg i.p.

[17] Vitamin B3: mouse LD50 = 358 mg/kg i.p. See entry NCQ 900 in:

Lewis, R.J. "Sax's dangerous properties of industrial materials", 9th ed., 1996 (New York, Van Nostrand Reinhold)

---------------------------- http://thomas.munro.com/salvia.htm





and from erowid related to caffeine:
Oral Caffeine Dosages normal is 150 MG
LD50 (Lethal Dose*) 192 mg/kg in rats

caffeine is about 2x as toxic as salvinorin. but you need 150X as much caffeine to get the buzz - meantime:
salvinorin is effectively psychoactive at 1/250000 of the lethal toxic dosage


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InvisibleSHiZNO
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3761120 - 02/10/05 12:02 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

he means will it make you go insane in the long run


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3761290 - 02/10/05 12:55 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

There is not much money for research on psychedelics. MAPS does a good job. Here is the only Salvia research they have: http://www.maps.org/research/salvia/sdmeditation.html

I've never read about any other Salvia studies.


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Offlinedelta9
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: SHiZNO]
    #3761294 - 02/10/05 12:55 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SHiZNO said:
he means will it make you go insane in the long run


Then "no". Source? All the native americans in central america that have been using salvia for centuries...


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: delta9]
    #3761371 - 02/10/05 01:15 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Actually I mean't physiologically, aka will it kill my brain, but it's good to ask if it will drive me insane. I doubt that's the case though. Been used for too long.


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Offlinestefan
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: Annom]
    #3761422 - 02/10/05 01:25 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

there are more studies on salvinorin I think. I once looked it up on the computer at the psychology library at the university and more than one result came up. Never took the time to actually read them though. Reading scientific articles isn't fun :tongue:


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Offlineesin
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3761459 - 02/10/05 01:33 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

And...?

So are mushrooms and ayahuasca, and it's common knowledge that they can make certain people 'crazy' for whatever reasons.

Salvia is a strong psychedelic, it has the risks of most other psychedelics. I'd say it's harder to 'fry' on salvia than a couple hits of LSD, but i believe it may still scramble someone's mind if they have latent psychological disorders or other issues.

As the ridiculously strong psychedelic it is, salvia IS NOT for everyone...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: esin]
    #3761569 - 02/10/05 01:56 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

anything can contribute to your path of craziness.

psychedellics can augment those things chosen to go crazy with.
the thing is to plan a nice route into madness and back out, or
prepare to be happy and mad at the same time:

I try not to do too many embarrassing things so that if/when I go senile, those in care of me will remain pleasant and not too disgusted.

but I don't think salvia or salvinorin will hurt you much at any amounts that would still be enjoyable.

for the last 2 years I have enjoyed some every 3 days on average, and have not degenerated much noticeably. (certainly not beyond normal wear and tear - people still guess my age at 10 or 12 years younger when they look at me, and 40 years younger when the see me eat)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4294444 - 06/14/05 09:30 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"In mice, a concentrated extract of Salvia divinorum is approximately as toxic as vitamin B3[16],[17]. This is less than half as toxic as dextromethorphan, and ten times less toxic than atropine, both of which are available without prescription, as discussed above[18].

....
Valdes, L.J. "The pharmacognosy of Salvia divinorum (Epling and Jativa-M.): An Investigation of Ska Maria Pastora". PhD thesis, 1983, University of Michigan.

Fig. 22, p.146: mouse LD50 = 340 mg/kg i.p.

[17] Vitamin B3: mouse LD50 = 358 mg/kg i.p. See entry NCQ 900 in:

Lewis, R.J. "Sax's dangerous properties of industrial materials", 9th ed., 1996 (New York, Van Nostrand Reinhold)"

What was the route of administration? Salvinorin may have poor bioavailability IP, a common route for dosing mice and rats.

"Then "no". Source? All the native americans in central america that have been using salvia for centuries... "

As an oral aqueous infusion, slowly diffusing into the blood at low quantities. Not as large doses of material rapidly diffusing through the lungs. Not to mention extracts.
Also, Datura was (is?) commonly used amongst various tribes. Hey, human sacrifice was practiced by Native Americans of Central America; not sure that would necessary prove safe for everyone involved.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: stvip]
    #4294764 - 06/14/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Vald?s completed a variety of animal experiments in order to determine the psychoactivity of S. divinorum, particularly salvinorin A. Homo sapiens were excluded as test subjects. Since salvinorin A is insoluble in water, he dissolved it in corn oil and Tween-80, a surfactant. He then added water to form an emulsion which settled easily (23).
(Vald?s, L. J. Divinorin A, a psychotropic terpenoid, and divinorin B from the hallucinogenic Mexican mint Salvia divinorum. Journal of Organic Chemistry, 49(24), 4716-4720; 1984)




http://www.sagewisdom.org/rovinsky.html

with the tween-80 and corn oil I am sure that there was adequate bio-availability.


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4298273 - 06/15/05 08:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"with the tween-80 and corn oil I am sure that there was adequate bio-availability."

And why does that make you so certain? Oral bioavailability is a complex issue. Anyhow, he later attempted different preparations; the article you cite doesn't distinguish which was used when (I might add, Valdez doesn't seem to be a very competent in vivo experimenter, judging from the details of his methods).
Anyhow, my university doesn't carry those journals, so I can't read the various full articles. All in all, however, it seems premature to declare salvia divinorum, especially in the manner currently used, to be safe in humans. So far it doesn't seem to cause any cumulative or permanent damage, but there's still plenty of room for doubt (the thread subject specifically asks for concrete evidence that salvia is safe).
Unless you've seen more convincing results.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: stvip]
    #4298778 - 06/15/05 12:17 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

both corn oil and tween-80 were used and that solution was mixed as an injectible suspension in water - as described in the article.

I have discussed oral bioavailability extensively http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=faq&Number=4101509
Quote:

Oral intake can require 20 times as much material (compared to smoking) to produce similar effects whether it is by quid, elixir, drinks or teas. Oral intake which you swallow with lots of fluid act more quickly than chewing fresh or reconstituted quid leaves especially if attempting not to swallow.

Sublingual ?holding unchewed leaf or chemically prepared blotter under the tongue ? is not effective.
Unchewed leaf has no effect which is not surprising since the waxy crystalline material will not break down or dissolve quickly in the body?s non-polar body fats or in plasmas, it will not diffuse from the leaf or passively enter body tissue.

To explain the different absorptions consider that tiny particles which can lodge on cellular membranes of mucosa will be slowly absorbed. The more surface area exposed, the faster overall absorption will take place, and the smaller the waxy particles are, the faster they will get through the membranes of the mucosa. So the fastest route involves molecular salvinorin vapor or liquid which will absorb instantly when it contacts such the bronchial cell membranes as alveoli in the lungs.

While the fastest absorption involves the smallest particles across the largest surface (smoked salvia vapor over lungs) the slowest is to try to swallow a large particle solid pill - which actually does not work psycho actively at all since it never allows enough salvinorin to be absorbed quickly enough - i.e. the big particle just sits in one spot. Some have erroneously conjectured that stomach acid breaks down salvinorin, but delayed absorption explains all of the reduction of effects via oral intake.

In the middle of the efficiencies there is the munching of leaves, which if done well grinds the particles finely, some can be absorbed at oral mucosa and some are absorbed as they trickle down the throat.

A bit faster action is noticed with Tea, since it flushes the tiny particles through the gut, one gets effects nearly as fast as smoking if one drinks quickly an infusion with small salvinorin particles.

Unfortunately only about 20% of active ingredient gets into the water as a suspension, so tea seems wasteful if the leaves are not extracted after use.

Differences between oral, pharyngeal, esophageal, peptic, duodenal, and bronchial mucosa, are mostly explained by the absorption potential of these surfaces, and how much of these surfaces are exposed to salvinorin containing materials.

Code:

compare the impact of quantity of salvinorin-A:
-------smoking-------oral-------tea----level
mild----150mics------4000mics---10mg---II
medium--300mics------8000mics---20mg---III
strong--450mics-----12000mics---30mg---IV-V
toomuch-800mics-----20000mics---50mg---V-VI
--------------------------------------------


compare duration of each aspect of effect:
-------smoking-------oral-------tea----level
onset----30 secs-----10mins------5mins
rampup---30 secs------2mins------2mins
peak----3-6 mins-----20 mins-----20mins
rampdown--1 min------20mins------20mins
sloppy---60 mins-----120mins----120mins

total less than
---------90 mins------3hours-----3hours







the duration variance and bioavailability variance over time via each method of salvinorin intake is not that difficult to understand - we are not just talking about molecules, but about the material's tendency to clump as a waxy crystalline solid and the abilities of various tissues to deal with macroscopic and microscopic presence of this awkward material. (i.e. not water soluble)

true the man asked for concrete (evidence) and all we have is scanty references of unexpected non-toxic tests (many are not even done in laboratories) and no record whatsoever or proof of toxicity (which should be easier to find than its opposite) - nor any record of a mortality as a direct result of salvinorin poisoning in humans - and this is hardly something to build permanent sidewalks out of. One can just stand back and be curious.

the nice thing about lsd and salvinorin is that they can both produce astonishing effects at concentrations that are very small. this conspires with the rest of the circumstantial evidence to indicate that very little poisoning is going on whilst unusual mental effects are being experienced (as compared to tobacco, alcohol, or even forms of vitamine B)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4299026 - 06/15/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

LSD now has several decades of history of use. There are many people who have repeatedly dosed on it many times during these decades. There are many people who have taken extraordinary large doses (relative to the usual amount). All of this in Western man, who is likely to seek medical treatment and be medically diagnosed in case of toxicity sympyoms (rather than blame it on spirits conspiring against him). It has evinced an extremely good safety profile. It has also, of course, been tested extensively in animals.
Salvia and salvinorin compare poorly with that. Very little experience with bolus dosing (smoking), very little documented history of use in Western man, scarce animal testing and with questionable techniques.
I'm not saying salvia or salvinorin is harmful, but I do pontificate that safety has not been evinced, especially not as smoked material.
My chief point of concern - on the classical psychedelics, cognition is not impaired (greatly altered, but intelligence does not seem adversely affected), nor is motor coordination (inasmuch as one's perceptions still allow coordination). Salvia is different.
Also, its mode of action is even less understood than that of LSD (and 'kappoa-opioid agonist' is far less informative than what it seems). We don't know in what manner it interacts with brain chemistry, and have no analogous compounds with which to compare it. Other kappa agonists are not similar to it, so it may very well affect the brain in other, currently unknown, ways.

"both corn oil and tween-80 were used and that solution was mixed as an injectible suspension in water - as described in the article."

Right, and that was coerced into the mice orally - I assume right into their stomaches (how else could one of the mice have died due to excess volume?). Siebert once compared consumption of equal quantities of leaves held in mouth and swallowed, versus quickly swallowed with minimal buccal contact. Apparently, the latter method seems to have very poor bioavailability.
Also, I'm not sure why you press the point of corn oil and a surfactant - salvinorin is insoluble in naptha as well as water, for example. Bioavailability is a thorny issue, it isn't always a simple matter of creating homogenous mixtures of the material.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: stvip]
    #4302638 - 06/16/05 07:17 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

actually I am not pressing the issue of corn oil, I do however stress that siebert's experiment with swallowing a plug of 10mg salvinorin - as a solid clump in a gel cap was in appropriate to the material which is a waxy crystalline solid, as it would certainly pass through the gut unabsorbed to the degree required to attain noticible effect (i.e. five to ten micrograms per second blood stream absorption is required as a minimum bioavailability to a total of at least 300 mics in 60 seconds)

There is going to be a huge differernce between the material in solution and in suspension being absorbed (observe my report on Salvia Tea which is very much like that) against the gut lining, and the relative non absorption of a solid blob in the gut.

I am really surprised that Siebert's test of swallowing of the unchewed blob is still being treated as meaningfull. All quids are chewed to death, so that the trichomes of near-solid salvinorin can be liberated from their resistant clumpiness.

If you look at my chart, you can see that we have some ways to go to accurately model the absorption, but degree of effect and onset--rampup--peak----rampdown--and baseline are consistently related to dose and method of intake.

You are also right that we do not have a good scientific model for the salvia effect (after KOR excitation) but we also do not have a proper model for the result of SSRI, or serotonin analogues as it relates to cognition or consciousness itself, only to local synapse behavior.

As for scientific tests with inhaled vapor mist or powder, this is common with anaesthetic product and one day will be used with this I hope.

So you admit you are pontificating
Quote:

My chief point of concern - on the classical psychedelics, cognition is not impaired (greatly altered, but intelligence does not seem adversely affected), nor is motor coordination (inasmuch as one's perceptions still allow coordination). Salvia is different




This is an abuse of language and a twist of all evidence, Especially considering that the salvia experience reaches peak in a minute (via smoking) and the peak of LSD (sublingual) reaches peak between 20 and 60 minutes; you have to allow that some of the reported experiences relate to the sudden shift in perception which are as makedly different as comparing a car's accelleration and that of a jet airplane. the difference in accelleration is called jerk.

(the nature of the experiences does not seem extremely different allowing for the time variances.)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4302821 - 06/16/05 10:07 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"the salvia experience reaches peak in a minute (via smoking) and the peak of LSD (sublingual) reaches peak between 20 and 60 minutes; you have to allow that some of the reported experiences relate to the sudden shift in perception which are as makedly different as comparing a car's accelleration and that of a jet airplane. the difference in accelleration is called jerk."

That's exactly what I'm saying. A difference in acceleration is what distinguishes a car crash from a comfortable ride. There is no scientific studies of which I'm aware studying short-term and long-term effects of this immediate sudden onslaught of salvinorin.

Anyhow, why quibble? LSD has been extensively studied in animals, salvia has only a paucity of animal studies (and those Valdez experiments seem to have been poorly executed). LSD, and compounds which seem to have a similar mechanisms of action (mescaline, psilocybin, etc.) have decades of scientifically documented and researched human use, salvia is new to the scientific community. Current use of psilocybin is similar to centuries-long traditional use, savlia is commonly administered at a different route with dramatically different pharmacokinetcs. And with regards to the preceding, traditional use does not imply safety anyhow: see datura for one example of many.
Conclusion: there is not "really a lot of concrete evidence that salvia is physiologically safe".
I have yet to encounter a report of harmful non-psychological effects either.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is there really alot of concrete evidence that Salvia is physiologically safe? [Re: stvip]
    #4302953 - 06/16/05 11:11 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

what you just wrote could be about as close to saying
"I can agree with you"
that I might expect will ever happen until after thousands of animals have been tested and all aspects of the materials are taken into account.


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