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Offlineshroommachine
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Registered: 01/03/05
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VIETNAM
    #3758386 - 02/09/05 10:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The Unwilling
Led by the Incompetent
To do the Unnecessary
For the Ungrateful


I found that a while ago, thought you guys might like it.


--------------------
And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Re: VIETNAM [Re: shroommachine]
    #3759180 - 02/10/05 12:17 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shroommachine said:
The Unwilling
Most of the people that fought signed up themselves

Led by the Incompetent
Lydon Johnson was incompetent and micro managed the war from the White House. Our military won every battle on the field.

To do the Unnecessary
Apparently, the history of IndoChina from 1975 on is a mystery to you.

For the Ungrateful
More South Vietnamese died fighting for freedom than Americans in every single year of the conflict. Even more died after we bailed on them and the communists took over.

I found that a while ago, thought you guys might like it.




--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: VIETNAM [Re: shroommachine]
    #3763317 - 02/10/05 07:47 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


"College is for losers and sellouts." - Henry Kardys





Says it all.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
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Re: VIETNAM [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3764243 - 02/10/05 11:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Unwilling
Most of the people that fought signed up themselves



Not that I think you're wrong, but a source on that would be nice. Hope the number of those who 'signed up themselves' AFTER the war was unconstitutionally begun is larger than the number of those who were drafted and fought, or the issue becomes a lot more muddled.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: VIETNAM [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3765781 - 02/11/05 09:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The following is an excerpt from a book by Bill Burkett. He wrote a book entitled "Stolen Valor: How The Vietnam Generation Was Robbed Of its Heroes And its History".

I have read that book, or at least most of it. He packed so much research into it I was amazed. He is famous for "outing" fake veterans and supposed war heros, and he literally documents case after case. The book is a real eye opener.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Part III - Will the Real Vietnam Vet Stand Up?
B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley


America won World War II. Vietnam was "the only war America ever lost."

In World War II, everybody pulled together. Vietnam was the class war, the war in which wet-behind-the-ears, poor, uneducated, minority men were chopped to pieces while college boys thumbed their noses at them in campus antiwar protests.

Brave American soldiers in World War II bested the evil armies of Hitler and Hirohito. In Vietnam, confused, drug addicted soldiers killed women and children.

World War II's veterans came home to stirring parades, ready to sire the baby boom and forge a supernation. Vietnam veterans trickled back in dishonor, fighting drug habits and inner demons. Or so say the stereotypes. Let's look behind the myths:

Myth: The war in Vietnam was fought by teenagers barely old enough to shave, while World War II was fought by men. A much-repeated statistic claims that the average age of the Vietnam soldier was 19, while the average age of the World War II soldier was 26.

Reality: The average age of men killed in Vietnam was 22.8 years, or almost 23 years old. While the average age of those killed was 22.8, more 20-year-olds were killed than any other age, followed by 21-year-olds, then 19-year-olds. More 52-year-olds (22) died in Vietnam than youths of 17 (12). The oldest American serviceman killed was 62. Almost 11 percent of those who died were 30 years of age or older.

Myth: The war was fought predominantly by draftees.

Reality: About one-third of Vietnam-era veterans entered the military through the draft, far lower than the 67 percent drafted in World War II. And once drafted, many men volunteered for the Marines, the Airborne, Special Forces, or other duty likely to send them to Vietnam.

Myth: It was a class war, with the poor and lower middle class those who suffered the brunt of it. The best and the brightest didn't go.

Reality: The force that fought in Vietnam was America's best educated and most egalitarian in the country's history -- and with the advent of the all-volunteer Army is likely to remain so.

In World War II, only 45 percent of the troops had a high school diploma.

Many were virtually illiterate. During the Vietnam War, almost 80 percent of those who served had high school diplomas, even though, at the time, only 65 percent of military age youths in the U.S. had a high school degree.

Throughout the Vietnam era, the median education level of the enlisted man was about 13 years. Proportionately three times as many college graduates served in Vietnam than in World War II.

A study done at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1992 compared the socio-economics of the 58,000 Americans killed in Vietnam to 58,000 randomly chosen contemporaries by rating their home-of-record according to per-capita income. They discovered that 30 percent of the KIAs came from the lowest third of the income range; but 26 percent of the combat deaths came from families earning in the highest third. This result was startling -- and far from the expectation that wealthier Americans were sheltered from the war.

Myth: The war took the highest toll on minorities.

Reality: About 5 percent of those who died were Hispanic and 12.5 percent were black -- making both minorities slightly under-represented in relation to their proportion of draft-age males in the national population. (This will be discussed further in a later chapter.)

Myth: The soldier in Vietnam smoked pot and shot up with heroin to dull the horrors of combat.

Reality: In 1967, the drug use rate of .25 per 1,000 troops in Vietnam was lower than the Army-wide rate of .30 per 1,000 troops. Except for the last couple of years of the war, drug usage among American troops in Vietnam was lower than for American troops stationed anywhere else in the world, including the United States. Even when the drug use started to rise in 1971 and 1972, almost 90 percent of the men who had ever served in Vietnam had already come and gone. America had virtually thrown in the towel; idleness and the declining troop morale led to escalating drug use that reached crisis proportions.

A study after the war by the VA showed drug usage of veterans and non-veterans of the Vietnam age group was about the same. Another study, the "Vietnam-Era Research Project," concluded that drug use was more common among non-veterans than Vietnam-era veterans.

Myth: American soldiers deserted rather than fight the "immoral" war.

Reality: In World War II, the Army's overall desertion rate during that war was 55 percent higher than during Vietnam. Of those troops who deserted during the Vietnam era, only five percent did so while attached to units in Vietnam. Only 24 deserters attributed their action to the desire to "avoid hazardous duty." Of AWOLs, only 10 percent were related to opposition to the war.

Myth: Vietnam vets have high rates of incarceration.

Reality: A 1981 VA study concluded that 25 percent of those in combat during the war had ended up in prison. In the mid-1980s VietNow, one of the first Vietnam veterans' organizations to receive a VA grant for delayed stress counseling, put out a pamphlet claiming that over 70,000 Vietnam vets were behind bars, while over 200,000 were on probation, parole, or out on bail. The more mainstream Vietnam Veterans of America has claimed that 5 to 12 percent of the prison population at any given time are Vietnam vets, with up to 300,000 in the criminal justice system.

All this information is based on self-reporting by prisoners. But in every major study of Vietnam veterans where the military records were pulled from the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis and the veterans then located for interviews, an insignificant number have been found in prisons.

Myth: Substantial numbers of Vietnam veterans are unemployed.

Reality: Vietnam veterans are no more likely to be unemployed than men who did not serve in Vietnam and, in fact, have a lower unemployment rate than those who didn't serve. Figures from 1994 showed that the unemployment rate for U.S. males 18 and over was 6 percent. The unemployment rate for all male veterans was 4.9 percent. Among Vietnam-era veterans who served outside the Vietnam theater, it was 5 percent. For Vietnam veterans, the rate went down to 3.9 percent.

In every category for which I could find statistics, Vietnam veterans were as successful or more successful than men their age who did not go to Vietnam. A Washington Post/ABC News survey released in April 1985, on the tenth anniversary of the fall of Saigon, reinforced the findings of the earlier Harris study. The Post/ABC survey randomly polled 811 veterans who served in Vietnam and Southeast Asia and 438 Vietnam-era veterans who served elsewhere. The poll revealed that only nine percent of Vietnam veterans had never graduated from high school compared to 23 percent of their peers. A Vietnam veteran was more likely to have gone to college than a man of his age not in the service; nearly 30 percent of Vietnam vets had some college education, versus 24 percent of the U.S. population.

That educational edge translated to employment rates similar to non-veterans of the war. In 1985, three of every four said their annual household incomes exceeded $20,000. Almost half made $30,000 or more per year. Seventy-eight percent were homeowners, paying mortgages on traditional, single-family homes -- and more likely to own a home than their peers who did not go to Vietnam. Eight of every 10 surveyed were married and 90 percent had children.

Strikingly, the Washington Post survey indicated that, despite the negative attitudes of the public, Vietnam veterans had positive feelings about their experience:

- Seventy-four percent said they "enjoyed their time in service."
- Eighty percent disagreed with the statement "the United States took unfair advantage of me."
- Fifty-six percent of Vietnam veterans said they benefited in the long run by going to Vietnam. Only 29 percent said they were set back.
- Ninety-one percent of those who served in Vietnam were "glad they served their country."

With this ammunition, I was ready to fight the image battle. But I had forgotten about "Them."

Part I - Rambo and the Bogus War Heroes
Part II - Welcome Home, Babykiller
Part IV - The Ragtag Brigade
Part V - Would I Lie To You?


Will The Real Vietnam Vet Please Stand Up?


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: VIETNAM [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3766916 - 02/11/05 04:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

About one-third of Vietnam-era veterans entered the military through the draft, far lower than the 67 percent drafted in World War II.



Thanks for the reference. Two things: I'm still suspicious of just what percentage of those who fought in Vietnam voluntarily joined up AFTER, say, the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Also, the use of the word 'era' up there (Vietnam-era vet as opposed to the usual Vietnam-vet) is somewhat unsettling, though I certainly couldn't call shenanigans on a hunch.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Re: VIETNAM [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3778793 - 02/14/05 04:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I have no figures of people drafted vs. enlisted after the Gulf Of Tonkin incident. The war was popular among the public after Tonkin. The turning point of public opinion came in 1968 after the Tet offensive.

Courtesy of the VFW Magazine and the Public Information Office

Vietnam War Statistic


A "Vietnam Era" veteran is the total sample of all people who served in the arm forces during the Vietnam war.

"9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (Aug. 5, 1964-May 7, 1975)." That is the total number of Vietnam era veterans.

Of those 9,087,000 fighting men and women, 3,403,100 (Including 514,300 offshore) personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater, and 2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam.

Quote:


DRAFTEES VS. VOLUNTEERS...

-- 25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII.

-- Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam.
Reservists killed: 5,977

-- National Guard: 6,140 served: 101 died.

-- Total draftees (1965 - 73): 1,728,344.

-- Actually served in Vietnam: 38%

-- Marine Corps Draft: 42,633.

-- Last man drafted: June 30, 1973.





Only about a third of the people drafted ever even made it into Vietnam. Once in Vietnam, a majority of the people there didn't even see combat. Most of the people were there for infrastructre and support.

One of the things that Burkett talks about in his book was the fact that it was relatively easy to avoid combat or even Vietnam if you wanted to. You could even get out of even going there at all and still serve the country. We still needed people at home and at our many bases abroad. We tried to put our best men on the front lines. Once drafted, many people even voluntered for elite units that were sure to put them in harms way, and God Bless them for that.

The people we lost in Vietnam weren't poor minorites and uneducated rednecks that were forced into service. That is a myth. Those young men were among our best and brightest.

The draft is what really spurred the antiwar movement. That is evidenced in how quickly the movement disappeared once they stopped conscription. This nation should never go back to a draft. It causes too many problems and an all volunteer army is more motivated and efficient. If we have problems signing people up, all we need to do is raise the wages.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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