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OfflineAreoZephin
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Hm.
    #3749961 - 02/08/05 07:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Realize what isn't human, then you can evolve.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Hm. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3749968 - 02/08/05 07:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

aha! but first you would need to know what IS human, wouldn't you! And that isn't as easy as it sounds.


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Hm. [Re: exclusive58]
    #3750005 - 02/08/05 07:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The hardest things are sometimes the easiest. Depends on who you are.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Hm. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3750010 - 02/08/05 08:01 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Look to the future, the cosmos and the heart


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Hm. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3750020 - 02/08/05 08:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AreoZephin said:
Realize what isn't human, then you can evolve.




But what if your version of what isn't human is wrong compared to the other human realising he isn't human?  :smirk:


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Hm. [Re: Fliquid]
    #3750037 - 02/08/05 08:25 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"realising he isn't human"

You are human no matter what. You must first realize you are human, then you realize what isn't human within your qualities, your senses.

Is changing the molecular structure of a glass cup with your mind, human? This isn't human. Well, this is not human because it is not common as walking.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Hm. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3752675 - 02/08/05 10:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

hm, i like :smile:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Hm. [Re: exclusive58]
    #3752818 - 02/08/05 10:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
aha! but first you would need to know what IS human, wouldn't you! And that isn't as easy as it sounds.




http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=human

:grin: :thumbup:


he he, words are hilarious.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Hm. [Re: Gomp]
    #3753288 - 02/08/05 11:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

what if 'human' itself is what we aren't?


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Hm. [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3754899 - 02/09/05 07:25 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It's just a definition though. Take the name "human" away you just have what IS.

"What if we aren't females but males or males but females"

It's just a meaning. Take it away, it's just what IS.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Hm. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3754921 - 02/09/05 07:36 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"What if we aren't females but males or males but females"



hm?

Quote:

Take the name "human" away you just have what IS


- is that condensed catalyst for evolution then?

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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Hm. [Re: CJay]
    #3754935 - 02/09/05 07:48 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What I'm talking about is that I saw some people say, "what if we aren't males but females"

These are defined. Words that depict. If you took away the word "male and female" it wouldn't matter. We'd just know that this one has a penis this one has a vagina. It wouldn't matter.

If you take away the word "human" and the definition, and 200 years later humans developed the sense of moving objects with E.S.P., the mind, or with implants that allowed it, such of what permits for the dictionary definition wouldn't have to be changed because it wouldn't exist.

Evolution wouldn't exist because it would be, just is

"Hmm, moving an object with the mind, I wonder if this is human?" of course, it isn't because not every human is doing that and is unheard of. Possible science fiction. If then this is not human, then make it human. You have evolved.

Many things. Realize what isn't human, and then you can evolve.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Hm. [Re: Gomp]
    #3754968 - 02/09/05 08:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=human





Unfortunately, the dictionary doesn't have the answer to all our questions. And this question isn't as obvious as it sounds.

Until medieval times, we considered women, strangers and slaves not to be humans..

Is a foetus with developped arms and legs of six months old a human?
If the answer is yes, is a three month foetus a human?
Is an egg that has just been fertilized a human?
A person that has been in the coma for six years with a beating heart and breathing lungs, is this still being human?
A human brain, living but isolated in a nutritive liquid, is this human?
A computer capable of reproducing all the thought mechanisms of of a brain, does it have the merit of being entitled as human?
A robot that looks like a human on the outside and has a brain similar to ours, is this human?
A human clone, genetically fabricated in order to supply organs just in case its twin's organs don't work, is that a human being?

IMO, the notion of "human being" is going to be harder and harder to define.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Hm. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3755161 - 02/09/05 10:10 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If you take away the word "human" and the definition, and 200 years later humans developed the sense of moving objects with E.S.P., the mind, or with implants that allowed it, such of what permits for the dictionary definition wouldn't have to be changed because it wouldn't exist.

What about humans who can run exceptional speeds, or do complex math in their heads? Are they not human?

Also, when are people going to get an understanding of evolution. Evolution is not constant improvement, or the gaining of abilities, it is simply change. A virus like HIV is highly evolved because it has adapted in such a way that allows it to continue to be passed on and avoid being killed out by treatment. There are no life forms on the planet that aren't the result of just as much evolution as us.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Hm. [Re: Phluck]
    #3755565 - 02/09/05 12:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

this is the strangest thread. I think we're all arguing over our personal definitions of the word 'human' and so on... what AeroZephin seems to be saying is, "whatever you are, you are, and whatever you're not, you most certainly are not." I for one agree, not that it actually means anything.


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Hm. [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3755993 - 02/09/05 02:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
What about humans who can run exceptional speeds, or do complex math in their heads? Are they not human?




That's still human. Any human can do that if they tried, you can improve your physical abilities and mental abilities. That's Adaptation.

Quote:

Also, when are people going to get an understanding of evolution. Evolution is not constant improvement, or the gaining of abilities, it is simply change. A virus like HIV is highly evolved because it has adapted in such a way that allows it to continue to be passed on and avoid being killed out by treatment. There are no life forms on the planet that aren't the result of just as much evolution as us.




A virus like HIV is not "highly evolved", that is still adaptation XD And I'm the one throwing the word evolution around?

That is not complete change. It didn't turn itself into a different virus. What you are saying of it adapting: that's adaptation.

A human running faster, learning, etc. That's gaining knowledge, gaining ability. Using the knowledge to better one's mind, but not through means of complete change. He does not rip his legs off and put ostridge legs on through means of evolution through science, science through knowledge.

Evolution exists through knowledge. If we decided to change our eyes with knowledge, if we learned.. we could take our eyes out and put tiger eyes in. Evolution through science, science through knowledge. No adaptation. Your mind and body already knows how to use eyes. You can't say "Oh well the mind adapted to those new eyes" no, it's just gaining that ability again.

Cloning and DNA restructuring, evolution through science.

"Oh hey! Look at the biological structure of a plant plant, look at that! This is certaintly not human! But hey, we can use this on a human to replace his hair with plant molecules with DNA restructuring to make his hair not bald when he grows up." Evolution. Because your hair never had a plant molecule like that one they just put in, ever, ever and never would have if science didn't exist. And if knowledge didn't exist, (Realization) science would not exist.

"Wow an apple fell from the tree" - Realization, and thus gaining knowledge.

So, realizing what is not human you will evolve.

That isn't the only way to evolve. That is one. But it is a major one.


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Edited by AreoZephin (02/09/05 02:44 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Hm. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3756123 - 02/09/05 03:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

That's still human. Any human can do that if they tried, you can improve your physical abilities and mental abilities. That's Adaptation.

Bullshit. There are lots of people who train with great effort and are never able to reach exceptional speeds, and some people, no matter how hard they try, suck at math. Not all people are physically identical, while practice and effort can approve our abilities, some people are simply born with greater skills than others.

A virus like HIV is not "highly evolved", that is still adaptation XD And I'm the one throwing the word evolution around?

That is not complete change. It didn't turn itself into a different virus. What you are saying of it adapting: that's adaptation.


Why is it not highly evolved? Some of the changes the virus makes are not a complete change, but it didn't just appear out of nowhere... it evolved over millions of years, from other viruses before it. The reason it survived is because it is well adapted.

Like I said, evolution is not a series of steps forward, mutation is when genes get fucked up, not when they miraculously change for the better.

I'm not saying that the changes we might make to ourselves wouldn't be a form of evolution, but evolution is not a gradual aquisition of new abilities, it is the survival of the fittest. HIV seems to be even better at reproducing and surviving than we are, and is thus, a highly evolved organism, well tuned through natural selected to be extremely adept at passing itself on.

How is that NOT highly evolved?

"Human" is just a label for a large group of organisms with fairly similar genes. The difference between me and you, and me and a mouse is just a matter of degree.


--------------------
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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Hm. [Re: Phluck]
    #3756488 - 02/09/05 04:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Bullshit. There are lots of people who train with great effort and are never able to reach exceptional speeds, and some people, no matter how hard they try, suck at math. Not all people are physically identical, while practice and effort can approve our abilities, some people are simply born with greater skills than others.




How is it bullshit? If their body permits it, it is adaptation. If there body does not permit it, then there is no adaptation. You discover you become smarter than other people, or faster than other people through training and knowledge. If you reach the peak of it, and there are still others faster and smarter than you, you can not adapt anymore. But that seems illogical because there is no limit to how fast you can go or how smart you can be. Where is the limit in that? You can train, build muscles and run faster, there is no limit. You can learn as much as you want, and become as smart as someone else if you are willing to be patient.

Yes, they can be born with greater abilities. But this does not handicap everyone else but them from becoming as great or greater. If that person sucks at math it is because he or she is not interested in it, or has a physical handicap or mental condition such as ADD or being retarded and slow. If someone is shorter that someone else, this was more of caused by a major mutation somewhere in world history that spread over time, than evolution. And yes I will argue with that because scientist -invented- evolution as they -invented- a hole in the ozone layer. They found a way to make it real to believe. When really there is way more clerical evidence then slow evolution.

Chemicals from certain plants back in ancient times allowing this to happen. It is even happening today and is widely known to cause mutation. Diseases. Etc. Mutation. Just because a dwarf was born, this is no evolution. You don't know if back in ancient times they didn't chop people's legs off for crime and then mate to cause shorter people, there can be many more reasons than SLOW evolution. Their brain did not change color all of a sudden. Their brain didn't become shaped differently. There was no extra lobe.

You are saying evolution exists. When we haven't been around long enough to know for proof proof. But we go off believing what we hear from scientists who go out there and dig up those fossils when those fossils could have been planted there. I remember I while back when some lady got proved wrong for her dig up of an ancient civilization and all her shit was a hoax. Well I don't remember if it was a tribe or what. But that sure got me to think!

So people are willing to go to vast amounts to prove something that really isn't proved but a lie.

The only way for evolution right now is through science. That's it. And they made it that way. It's pretty obvious. By science, by technology, by knowledge of what we are doing with our DNA human genome codes. The plant is not human, we can evolve from it. And only through science if we do before it is to late.



Quote:

HIV seems to be even better at reproducing and surviving than we are, and is thus, a highly evolved organism, well tuned through natural selected to be extremely adept at passing itself on.

How is that NOT highly evolved?




Well for one. Something that highly evolved and better at reproducing and surviving than we are;. I'm surprised we are still a booming organism ourselves. If HIV was evolved, over time for it to evolve to that state, would be EVOLVING right now at a rapid rate instead of adapting, especially at what you are saying also: at passing itself on.

" 'Human' is just a label. " Yes. It is a label, it is just a definition. To classify, to realize.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Hm. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3756791 - 02/09/05 05:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If that person sucks at math it is because he or she is not interested in it, or has a physical handicap or mental condition such as ADD or being retarded and slow.

So you either have the -exact- same mathematical abilities as everyone else, or you've got some kind of handicap? When I was in high school, math was easy for me, I found it boring, and didn't want anything to do with it, but I never had any trouble learning it. There were people who slaved away at math in my class, perfectly intelligent and reasonable in many areas, who were unable to do very well despite continuous and sustained effort.

If someone is shorter that someone else, this was more of caused by a major mutation somewhere in world history that spread over time, than evolution.

Evolution is just a bunch of mutations... what do you think causes evolutionary changes... magic?

You don't know if back in ancient times they didn't chop people's legs off for crime and then mate to cause shorter people, there can be many more reasons than SLOW evolution.

You aren't honestly suggesting that chopping someones legs off will cause them to have shorter children, are you? That makes no sense whatsoever. I might as well proclaim that sneezing gets you pregnant.

If HIV was evolved, over time for it to evolve to that state, would be EVOLVING right now at a rapid rate instead of adapting, especially at what you are saying also: at passing itself on.

Uh, adapting and evolving are the same thing. Natural selection, my friend. You really need to educate yourself on the subject before trying to debunk it.

You don't really seem to have a good grasp on evolution or genetics, and why these things are considered valid ideas in the scientific community.

Read, then get back to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection
http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Main_Page
http://www.talkorigins.org/


--------------------
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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Hm. [Re: Phluck]
    #3761012 - 02/10/05 11:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What you said about someone being born with better gifts than other people would only lead me to say that it was handed down to them by the means of the parent who trained themselves to store that information in the brain over time handed down to the child, intellectual wise. Somehow saying that it is a random chain of numbers, every number being that generation of family that somewhere in the chain that ancestor had that property in their genetics.

Let's say 500 years ago this man had trained himself to become smart in science, and 500 years later a child is born who grows up to be a genius like Albert Einstein. Albert's traits from 500 years ago had been carried through a chain of numbers that had eventually inevitably been chosen for that child.

Basically it had been recorded into the DNA structure, or whatever else, and all the other people were carriers.

Now if it was selected at a continuous rate without any carrier, yeah, then I can see an evolution.

Such as a person getting taller or stronger over time because of the diets or exercise, and the more the options the same a better chance of there being a faster stronger person.

It should be called random selection rather than natural selection. Evolution sounds as if it is merging or dividing itself for the better of itself, over time slowly, when really that's not the case because it's still weak in areas for the worse. Adaptation, HIV becoming immune to a new medicine because it can and because it's structure can permit it, but no sign or anything of it becoming airborne or living without oxygen.

Evolution is as a superior mutation event all of a sudden, that ever baby born all of a sudden starting right now would have their brains operation at maximum potential, and had some superior property than we did. Something changing at a maximum rate.

It's still strange to me though why something without intellect would want to change or adapt to harm something, in the first place when nothing harmful had to exist. And that if it couldn't survive there, it wouldn't. It would have to change all of a sudden.


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