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Doomed
    #374319 -

Unfortunatley the enviornmental movement as it now exist is doomed. It will never attain the level of social and political change necessary for survival of the human race let alone a future of sustainable agriculture, development, industry, and population.
The enviornmental movements eventual failure is due to its historic roots, and its current form of genesis as a social movement. The one thing that makes all social movements successful is the cohesive group which most feels the ills caused by the problem. The civil rights movement owes it's entire success to the minorities, especially blacks who directly felt the unjust and harmful effects of a segregated unequal society. It was within this group, roughly less than 12% of the US pop. that the eventual fruition of the movement came forth. The same is true for the feminist movement, and the current gay & lesbian movement. Each and every social movement that succeeds in changing the organization or the order of things does so because its most adament proponents live under problematic conditions every waking minute of life.
Unfortunatley the enviornmental movement lacks this solid base or group. Certainly there is a growing awareness of the ecological crisis to which we will face in the next century, but as the doomsday prophets foretell of a Los Angeles undersea, a decayed ozone, a heated and regionally altered planted, rising pollution, species depletion, we wake up and step outside and cannot for the life of us feel, or see these effects. We cannot as a society make a full and necessary effort to save ourselves until it is too late, precisely because our motivation for social change exist within the present, not the future.
And thusfare the present world, its industrial and technological capabilites have been able to outrun the decay of a sustainable planet. Through sheer might we have delayed the effects of our costley project, perhaps too long.


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Re: Doomed [Re: Lenore]
    #374429 -

Sad isn't it. You may just be right.


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Re: Doomed [Re: Lenore]
    #374433 -

welcome to humanity... so far as i see it we are only extending our planetary exicution. as one movie, "lost in space" stated "recycling came too late."

if humanity truly wanted to save the planet it would have done so in the 30's and even then it possably would have been too late. the greeks and romans have done the most polution with thier methods of smelting of metals. so who is to say we are the bad guys??!!??(i.e the US and other humanity)

yes as for earth, humans among many, many, many other spiecies are FUCKED!!!!! to date our only hope is a massive war where millions are killed--- i pray that i am gone before the world sees this happen-- and that we colonize more than just mars( the moon titan has been believed to be colonial). then just maybe HUMAN life will be preserved. but who knows huh.?? we could all die tomorrow in some nuclear catastrophie(sp).

The multiple troubles of man,
My brother, like slander and pain
Amaze you? Consider the heart
That holds them all in strangeness
And doesn't break.
"The Dude abides..."--jeffrey lebowski


--------------------
The multiple troubles of man,
My brother, like slander and pain
Amaze you? Consider the heart
That holds them all in strangeness
And doesn't break.
"The Dude abides..."--jeffrey lebowski

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Re: Doomed [Re: Lenore]
    #374444 -

We will wipe ourselves out and take many species with us, but the Earth will bandage up her scratch and go right on about her business as she has for the last 4.6 billion years. On the tree of life, Homo sapiens will be recorded as a dead leaf bud.


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Re: Doomed [Re: Lenore]
    #374849 -

I was watching the season finale of "Six Feet Under" tonight, and one of the characters asked "Why do we have to die?" and was answered "To make life meaningful". The human race is facing extinction, it's true, and we need to do what we can to try and see that it doesn't happen while we our our children are alive... but yeah, it's too late to stop it. Live your life with meaning and passion, and enjoy the decline.

Everything you know is wrong.
****
Bill Hicks' Gifts of Forgiveness


--------------------
Everything you know is wrong.
****
Bill Hicks' Gifts of Forgiveness

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Re: Doomed [Re: Lenore]
    #375089 -

OH NO the sky is falling!!!! We're all going to die run run run....

Give me a break. It's prety pompous of you to think that we have the power to destroy the Earth

Get a life and quite your bitchin'

environmentalists are friggin losers anyway

There are 2 things in life i enjoy....sex and ah?....well one thing i guess.............................


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There are 2 things in life i enjoy....sex and ah?....well one thing i guess.............................

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Re: Doomed [Re: Harry_Ballsonia]
    #375094 -

Wow...how did Mensa let you slip by?


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Re: Doomed [Re: Harry_Ballsonia]
    #375103 -

environmentalists are friggin losers anyway

Both end of the scale are as bad as each other.

It's prety pompous of you to think that we have the power to destroy the Earth

See what I mean ?

Take care

Phil




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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Harry_Ballsonia]
    #375117 -


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Re: Doomed [Re: Anonymous]
    #375164 -

heh heh... webbed feet. Harry is still a-waitin' on those thumbs he's heard so much about. maybe the reason mother nature floods the mississippi is to weed out rednecks like him... so there's one less gas station attendant in the world, not like we're losing a cancer cure.

Everything you know is wrong.
****
Bill Hicks' Gifts of Forgiveness


--------------------
Everything you know is wrong.
****
Bill Hicks' Gifts of Forgiveness

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Re: Doomed [Re: Anonymous]
    #375492 -

People have been proclaiming doom for centuries. But doom never comes does it? what happened to acid rain? remember that stuff that was due to wipe out all northern hemisphere forrest by a few years ago? why havent we run out of fossil fuels yet? Why arent billions of people all over the world starving like the bunny-huggers said they would way back in the 60's? Why havent we all been fried by the whole in the ozone layer?

All this doom-saying is put about by proffesional doom-sayers who make millions out of scaring people into giving them money to stop whatever imaginery demon is terrorising us now. And environmentalsim is all about money. Save the majestic whale and the cute cuddly little panda bears? yeh, right and what about the short, ugly slimy and smelly critters that bite people? dont hear greenpieces moaning about them do you now?

The truth is that things arent really that bad, and in many areas things are improving! but then greenpeace wouldnt get U$138 million per year for saying THAT would they?

Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......

Edited by madscientist on 08/21/01 05:14 AM.



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Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......

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Re: Doomed [Re: madscientist]
    #375503 -

In reply to:

what happened to acid rain?


This should get you started:
http://www.ec.gc.ca/acidrain/acidfact.html

Excerpt: "Will acid rain remain a problem after the Canadian and U.S. control programs are fully implemented?
Yes. Areas of southern and central Ontario, southern and central Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia will continue to receive mean annual sulphate deposition amounts that exceed their critical loads. The critical load will be exceeded by up to 10 kg/ha/yr of wet sulphate in parts of central and southern Quebec. As a result, about 95,000 lakes will remain damaged by acid rain. Lakes in these areas have not responded to reductions in sulphate deposition as well as, or as rapidly as, those in less sensitive regions. In fact, some sensitive lakes continue to acidify.
Even in 2010, with full implementation of the Canadian and U.S. programs, almost 800,000 km2 in southeastern Canada?an area the size of France and the United Kingdom combined?will receive harmful levels of acid rain; that is, levels well above critical load limits for aquatic systems."
In reply to:

why havent we run out of fossil fuels yet?


Fossil fuels are used about 100,000 times faster than they are formed, so they are finite. The world's oil reserves will last about another 80 years at the current rate of depletion. I'm sure you can find the numbers on coal, gas if you look.
In reply to:

Why arent billions of people all over the world starving

I don't know about about billions but there are definitely people suffering from malnutrition and starvation in this world. Agriculture grows arithmatically; population grows exponentially; the lines will cross somewhere.
In reply to:

Why havent we all been fried by the whole in the ozone layer?

"The incidence of all skin cancers has been rising 4% to 5% each year, and there are now more than 1.3 million new cases diagnosed annually. The incidence of melanoma has nearly tripled in the last 4 decades -- a rate faster than that of any other cancer." There are particularly high incidences in Australia. Also, there is good data demonstrating that some amphibian populations are in decline due to increased UV-B radiation. There is a good correlation between egg/embryo development in these species and the amount of photolyase they produce.
In reply to:

And environmentalsim is all about money.

Dude, I'm a biologist. Yeah, that's why I skipped medical school and went into ecology... I've got money pouring out my ass!
In reply to:

Save the majestic whale and the cute cuddly little panda bears? yeh, right and what about the short, ugly slimy and smelly critters that bite people?


Well, I know some short, ugly, slimey, smelly critters that ARE people, but that's another topic. My area of concern is globally declining amphibian populations. And there are some well-founded conservation programs oriented toward these guys. Unfortunately, you are right, the general public only takes interest in the charismatic megavertebrates. Not that they're not important, but the smaller guys are even more ecologically important given that they're not at the top at the food web. But megavertebrates can serve as umbrella species. By protecting them (their habitat, which is usually a large area) you automatically protect the less charismatic species that live there with them.
In reply to:

The truth is that things arent really that bad, and in many areas things are improving!

Yes in many areas things are improving. But the incredible loss of biodiversity that is occuring now is very bad and probably isn't going to get better... in our lifetimes.





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Re: Doomed [Re: zetek]
    #375519 -

Hey Zetek! first intelligent post on this thread! You do make a lot of good points while Im not actually trying to suggest that acid rain and ozone depletion are good things they certainly arent as bad as the treehuggers make them out to be. As to fossil fuels, in the 70s we had (I cant remember the exact figures but the ratios are good) about 9 billion barrels of identified oil reserves. We have so far used 9.5 billion barrels and have identified a further 15 (once again, not sure of the exact figures but ratios should be good).

The worlds exploding population has been fed by the increased use of agri-chemicals such as fertilisers and pesticides and the breeding of improved crop strains.

Technology has provided the answer to feeding the world and will continue to do so. In fact, a well-fed world is what we should be aiming for to save the environment. If people have food they are healthier and can educate themselves better, gain control over thier reproductive capacities. Improved agricultural technology should enable the world to feed itself without putting the remaining wilderness areas under the plough.

I object to environmental NGOs who have a strong anti-science and anti-technology bias. Organic food CANNOT feed more than 4 of the 6 billion people alive today, yet greenpeace advocates organic food above all others. I believe these NGOs have no real interest in the environment but wish simply to attract lots of donor money while spouting thier nostalgic nonsense about organic food, herbal medicine and the 'wisdom of the ancients'

The loss of species diversity is tragic. But maybe if greenpeace spent U$7 million last year on improving the lot of the third world rather than denying it acces to agri-biotech,
then people in the third world wouldnt have to go around poaching endangered species to feed thier families.

Im also a biologist :)

Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


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Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......

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Re: Doomed [Re: madscientist]
    #375532 -

Yeah, I think the term "environmentalist" is thrown around to much. Obviously I consider myself one but I'm not some nut from the Earth Liberation Front or some other wack-job group, as Freepers would sterotype an environmentalist... I mean enviroMENTALIST!

In reply to:

If people have food they are healthier and can educate themselves better, gain control over thier reproductive capacities. Improved agricultural technology should enable the world to feed itself without putting the remaining wilderness areas under the plough.

Definitely. That is the thing that strikes me so about the American tropics, the total denuding of the land that has occured. And it's ubiquitous around the globe. I saw some guys in Central America that were farming iguanas instead of cattle. Certainly a much more sustainable use of the land, in terms of protein production.

Edited by zetek on 08/21/01 08:47 AM.


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Re: Doomed [Re: zetek]
    #375942 -

""""The worlds exploding population has been fed by the increased use of agri-chemicals such as fertilisers and pesticides and the breeding of improved crop strains.

Technology has provided the answer to feeding the world and will continue to do so. In fact, a well-fed world is what we should be aiming for to save the environment. If people have food they are healthier and can educate themselves better, gain control over thier reproductive capacities. Improved agricultural technology should enable the world to feed itself without putting the remaining
wilderness areas under the plough.

I object to environmental NGOs who have a strong anti-science and anti-technology bias. Organic food CANNOT feed more than 4 of the 6 billion people alive today, yet greenpeace advocates organic food above all others. I believe these NGOs have no real interest in the environment but wish simply to attract lots of donor money while spouting thier nostalgic nonsense about organic food, herbal
medicine and the 'wisdom of the ancients'"""""


OK while we'er all throwing around our professional titles and creating our expertise let me add that I am a Sociologist...please quiet your laughter. I am also an ecologist. In responce to your views on agriculture--

Every year nearly 20 million acreas of farmland are lost due to insustainable farming practices. "Modern" or "Technological scientific" methods of farming are in reality profit maximizing methods. While they do produce more abundant food they come at a cost. They erode topsoil, salinate land, buildup chemical deposits, destroy biodiversity, the list goes on and on....
These improved crop strains you speak of may be bigger yeilding, and in some cases more nutritious (Golden rice is one example) but have you heard of the terminator crops. Large Agrobusinesses are poised to rule the worlds food supply through genetic engineering. The terminator seeds which are sold to farmers through monsanto corp. will not produce viable offspring, the f1 in fact will not even sprout. This looks to me to be a selfish move at putting many farmers in bondage to large agrobusinesses by controlling the seeds, although monsanto claims all in good liberal ideals to be simply protecting its intellectual property. Funny that a farmer was recently sued for theft of intellectual property when he saved some seed from his field that had been pollinated by a neighboring field of monsanto's genetically modified corn. What a company with ethics!

Putting the remaining wilderness under the plough! I cannot begin to respond to that one.

As of today 1 billion people on earth are chronically malnurished. 2/3 people go to bed hungry every night. Much of india and china exist in these conditions. When all is taken into account the ammount of food produced last year on a global scale could have fed everyone on earth and provided them with a healthy 2530 calorie diet. And yet! what do the powers that be want us to believe? That US and European citizens lay to blame for the worlds starvation. That all we as societies need do is give companies like monsanto, kellog, tyson foods.. AgroRapist inc. the green light to move into a global position of controlling agriculture and maximizing profit. The problem is not the need for new technologies, although they could help some. People starve because of the systems of food distribution, the US govt. and the Corps. that run it scoff at the idea of a persons right to be fed. The fact of the matter is that if you cannot pay you cannot eat.

The Organic movement is simply out to ask that for those who wish an organic produce be available. It is also hoped that the current state of agriculture can be somewhat stabilized, made ecologically sane, and socially healthy.


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Re: Doomed [Re: Lenore]
    #376181 -

**The terminator seeds which are sold to farmers through monsanto corp. will not produce viable offspring, the f1 in fact will not even sprout. **

The terminator tech was developed to solve the problem of outcrossing to wild plants NOT to allow monsanto to take over the world. Of, course once an answer had been found to outcrossing the greenies blasted monsanto for being capatalists. Terminator technology has never been used in any commercially available crop strain. In fact, most high yielding hybrids are sterile or yield very poor progeny so not being able to save seed is nothing unique. If farmers do not wish to buy such seed then they wont, market forces will prevail.

I have no problem with people eating organic food but I do have a problem with people spending millions of dollars to keep agri-technology out of the hands of third world nations. The current EU attitude to GM crops is simple trade protectionism, meaning that the US cannot import its cheaply grown corn, soya and cotton at a price that would undercut the backward european farmers.

By the way, herbicide resistant GM crops require minimum soil tillage so erosion is maximised, in contrast organic farmers must solve thier weed problems by excessive soil tillage which means more erosion. The pest resistant crop species are exactly what is needed in places like africa where there is NO WAY the poorer farmers (most of the population) can afford synthetic pesticides.

The statement that there is enough food to feed the world is correct but irrelevant. Third world nations must be able to grow sufficient food without being dependent on the west for thier food supply, this would constitute agriculural and technological colonialism. But maybe thats what the eco-fascists want?


Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


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Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......

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Re: Doomed [Re: madscientist]
    #376539 -

People in third world would be a lot less hungry if they werent forced to grow cash crops to sell to us so that they could pay back interest on loans that we have given them. It is these crippling loans that are the reason that third world countries are more willing than the EU to grow GM crops. The EU has the economic privelege of being able to reject cheap food, with possible serious cross-species deleterious genetc effects. Poorer countries dont have that choice.

As to fossil fuels, when we run out is relevent only to the people who make money from extracting them. When we do run out, alternatives will be used. It is the fact that we are burning them so much faster than they were formed that is bad. It is a fact that the Earth is a homeostatic system - the carbon cycle creates a balanced equilibrium in atmospheric CO2 levels that allows life to be sustained. Due to our peculiar evolutionary status, we are now able to place intense pressure on the system, which risks causing exponential decay. Because we dont know what changes the system can take without collapsing, it is irresponsible to burn fossil fuels so quickly, relasing CO2 at a rate that has not occured before.

Edited by mm. on 08/22/01 05:03 PM.



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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: Doomed [Re: mm.]
    #376697 -

I would just like to bring us all back into reality here

Corporations make money, lots of it, and have billions upon billions to spend on advertising, R&D, lobbying, and whatever else it takes to get thier way.

NGO's have little money by comparision. If you were to look into the budgets of the major players you would find they are dwarfed by even the smaller agrobusinesses. And these "evil" NGO's you describe are not just concentrating their efforts on Agriculture, they must deal with all the harm done by a world economy including chemical producers, manufacturers, petroleum companies, tobacco companies, energy companies, banks, I could continue.......

money makes the world go round, and businesses have more of it than anyone, even most 3rd world nations.


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Re: Doomed [Re: Lenore]
    #376706 -

I have listened to everyone and think most of u, except for harry and afew other people, are very right! BUt what u people fail to realize is it's all about population growth! The reason these third world countries aren't doing soo hot is because their reproducing like jack rabbits! They live because of better health aid, but still dont' get enough food! If everyone would try to have no more than two kids alot of problems would be solved! It is that simple, eventually we would equal back out, but most of the world simply isn't concerned, i personally would rather see a person die than a panda! Don't get me wrong i cherish human life, but humans can defend themselve, animals can't, we need to help them out, i would hate to try to explain to my grandson what a lion looks like, or a tiger. I'm only 16. Yet i feel i'm more mature about the matter than most adults. I recycle, and i try not to eat out at fast food places, i don't litter, yet i live a normal life. I'm probably getting an Honda Insight because of the 62 miles per gallon engine it contains. I Plan on one day running for political office, and one day i belive i will win. But until then i guess i will have to sit down and watch stupid polititians ruin the world i and everyone else should have the right to live and breath fresh air, to eat fish and not worry about it ahve too much mercury, or lead. Whatever u have to say is fine, but this is what i'm about, and i''m proud

first u get the money, then u get the Weemen!
Wee men? what the hell are u talking about!
i said woman; no u didn't man!

~Ur PAYING ME IN HAIR CLIPPINGS! WHAT ARE U cRAZY?


--------------------
first u get the money, then u get the Weemen!
Wee men? what the hell are u talking about!
i said woman; no u didn't man!

~Ur PAYING ME IN HAIR CLIPPINGS! WHAT ARE U cRAZY?

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Re: Doomed [Re: sir_shroom_alot]
    #376742 -

hehe, good luck running for president with a history on the shroomery and illcit drug use. that ticket would be great, sir shroom alot and vp mr tokes a ton. seriously though, i thought the same thing at your age, then i grew some hardcore ideals and grew to dispise the enitre american political system. and i just turned 18, so you could just as easily grow as angry as in such a short time. just hang here some more :)

goddam white kids


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goddam white kids

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Re: Doomed [Re: sir_shroom_alot]
    #376884 -

Well, what are you gonna do when you get old?
If you dont have alot of kids to take care of you then you are
going to die. So you gotta keep squesing them out while you
can before/if you get old.

Thats what I think is going throug peoples minds in these poor
countries. But then again imigrants here are doing well and they
still get like 5+ kids. Why?

"If you treat an individual as he is, he will stay as he is,
but if you treat him as he ought to be and could be,
he will become as he ought to be and could be"
-Goethe

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Re: Doomed [Re: sir_shroom_alot]
    #377605 -

It seems we all want the same thing here. SirShroomalot, I agree that a hell of a lot of the problem with the third world is the population growth. I was born and grew up in Malawi, one of the poorest and most over-populated country in the world (same pop as Zimbabwe, less than 1/4 the size). The question is what to do about it.

To get back to my original point, we are not doomed. We never have been. As long as progress is allowed to occur we can continue to find solutions to the worlds proplems. Organisations like greenpeace etc... are anti-progress. They do nothing except complain. They have no social outreach programs and they no no real research of thier own, preffering to cherry-pick from the extant scientific literature. They select those few facts that support thier nebulous and hypothetical critisisms of various companies and technologies while completely ignoring the vast body of hard evidence that contradicts them.

Most of seem to be rabid anti-capitalists. What is the alternative? communism? get a life! Globalisation is a result of free trade and free trade is the only way poor countries can get thier products to first world markets. The EU is the worst offender here, notorious for protecting its own markets to the detriments of other (often poorer nations).



Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


--------------------
Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......

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