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Psilotyl said:
That’s an interesting thought about PE.

I’ve wondered also when to supplement. Probably during the pasteurization process into sub is the obvious go, as I’m fairly positive substances getting thrown in with grain and going through sterilization would be rendered inactive.

Not really supplementation, but those Shulgin stories are really tantalizing...has me thinking about trying adding some 4-HO tryptamine, close to psilocin like you said, or tryptamine that is readily “4-HO”ed by the mushroom (supposedly) like DPT, DET, MET. They are fairly easy and cheap to get. If I have DMT, it’s getting used for something else (lol). But again like you said, even if at the end of the day the results blow your mind and it works, quantifying what happened and sharing it is an entirely different and difficult endeavor. But at least one would “know”, if the effect was significant enough to warrant assurance on the part of the consumer that something unique had indeed happened. And that would be cool. .

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Mycoactive said:

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Psilotyl said:
That’s an interesting thought about PE.

I’ve wondered also when to supplement. Probably during the pasteurization process into sub is the obvious go, as I’m fairly positive substances getting thrown in with grain and going through sterilization would be rendered inactive.

Not really supplementation, but those Shulgin stories are really tantalizing...has me thinking about trying adding some 4-HO tryptamine, close to psilocin like you said, or tryptamine that is readily “4-HO”ed by the mushroom (supposedly) like DPT, DET, MET. They are fairly easy and cheap to get. If I have DMT, it’s getting used for something else (lol). But again like you said, even if at the end of the day the results blow your mind and it works, quantifying what happened and sharing it is an entirely different and difficult endeavor. But at least one would “know”, if the effect was significant enough to warrant assurance on the part of the consumer that something unique had indeed happened. And that would be cool. .

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I would add them after pasteurization (or at the very tail end of the process). I like the idea of feeding the myc tryptamines like DPT, DET, and MET. You could also try out MPT, EPT, MiPT, EiPT, DiPT, and PiPT. I'm not sure how promiscuous the hydroxylase and kinase enzymes are, but it seems reasonable to assume that at least a few of these would work. Please let me know if you go ahead with this! I'd love to see what happens.

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Mycoactive said:

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Psilotyl said:
That’s an interesting thought about PE

I’ve wondered also when to supplement. Probably during the pasteurization process into sub is the obvious go, as I’m fairly positive substances getting thrown in with grain and going through sterilization would be rendered inactive.

Not really supplementation, but those Shulgin stories are really tantalizing...has me thinking about trying adding some 4-HO tryptamine, close to psilocin like you said, or tryptamine that is readily “4-HO”ed by the mushroom (supposedly) like DPT, DET, MET. They are fairly easy and cheap to get. If I have DMT, it’s getting used for something else (lol). But again like you said, even if at the end of the day the results blow your mind and it works, quantifying what happened and sharing it is an entirely different and difficult endeavor. But at least one would “know”, if the effect was significant enough to warrant assurance on the part of the consumer that something unique had indeed happened. And that would be cool. .

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I would add them after pasteurization (or at the very tail end of the process). I like the idea of feeding the myc tryptamines like DPT, DET, and MET. You could also try out MPT, EPT, MiPT, EiPT, DiPT, and PiPT. I'm not sure how promiscuous the hydroxylase and kinase enzymes are, but it seems reasonable to assume that at least a few of these would work. Please let me know if you go ahead with this! I'd love to see what happens.

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Solipsis said:

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Mycoactive said:

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Psilotyl said:
That’s an interesting thought about PE.

I’ve wondered also when to supplement. Probably during the pasteurization process into sub is the obvious go, as I’m fairly positive substances getting thrown in with grain and going through sterilization would be rendered inactive.

Not really supplementation, but those Shulgin stories are really tantalizing...has me thinking about trying adding some 4-HO tryptamine, close to psilocin like you said, or tryptamine that is readily “4-HO”ed by the mushroom (supposedly) like DPT, DET, MET. They are fairly easy and cheap to get. If I have DMT, it’s getting used for something else (lol). But again like you said, even if at the end of the day the results blow your mind and it works, quantifying what happened and sharing it is an entirely different and difficult endeavor. But at least one would “know”, if the effect was significant enough to warrant assurance on the part of the consumer that something unique had indeed happened. And that would be cool. .

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I would add them after pasteurization (or at the very tail end of the process). I like the idea of feeding the myc tryptamines like DPT, DET, and MET. You could also try out MPT, EPT, MiPT, EiPT, DiPT, and PiPT. I'm not sure how promiscuous the hydroxylase and kinase enzymes are, but it seems reasonable to assume that at least a few of these would work. Please let me know if you go ahead with this! I'd love to see what happens.

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You could use a 0.22 µm syringe filter to sterilize and inject a solution after autoclaving your sub or medium. That's how they add compounds to media which cannot be heated like that.
Can't they though? As the salt they shouldn't be volatile or sensitive afaik.

I didn't like MiPT but DiPT definitely has 'uses for something else', haha. DPT has such rough edges but 4-HO-DPT appears to be quite amazing and more doable apparently. It just seems all very wasteful but ok. Fascinating if you can find different effects from your mushies that way but imho scientifically i don't see the point in reproducing these results a lot more considering we know too little about the subtleties of actives in mushrooms to begin with at this stage.

DiPT has incredible auditory effects and limited visual effects (although this is all relative and a matter of dosage). Also weirdly while nothing much is seen it can still "feel" very much like being in that DMT world.
Many of those analogues have amazing unique effects (tho not often as sensorically distinct as those auditory effects) even if you shouldn't expect all of them to be such complete packages and classics as the parent compounds like psilocin. The 4-substituted ones are imo probably the best, reasonably paced, physically friendly and still psychedelically adequate imo.

I really hope nobody will overfeed certain toads with trypts to produce novel 5-HO tryptamines...

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murderlabz said:
I didn't know all the tryptamines, had to look them up...

CLASSIFICATION OF TRYPTAMINES BASED ON THEIR CHEMICAL STRUCTURES

STRUCTURES

Several classifications have been suggested for these substances. Nichols classified tryptamines in two main groups: -the simple tryptamines, including dimethyltryptamine (DMT), and the ergolines (a group of chemical compounds that were originally synthesized from a fungus ergot, among which is the lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). Fantegrossi divided tryptamines in three subgroups: simple tryptamines, without modification of the indole ring; tryptamines having a modification on the 4-position on the indole ring; tryptamines having a modification on the 5-position. Only substitutions on the 4-5 positions were considered because changes in position 6 or 7 result in reduced hallucinogenic activity

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Psilotyl said:
Word. In order for this experiment to work best we would be working the class to the left, there are a lot of them. The result would belong to the middle class. AET/ AMT is a no go way too much going on there with those guys. They have ultralong lasting effects if I’m not mistaken. V Good info & very much sets the “classes” straight or sum such thang. Dang I’m getting excited about this. I could realistically do this as soon as next month possibly. Two tubs of same strain, one control and one supplemented.

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Solipsis said:
4-HO tryptamines can be bought pure as 'research chemicals'. If one knows how to do TLC analysis it could be interesting to track these 4-hydroxylated being produced with a reference sample.

But since it has already been demonstrated (idk about peer review / reproduction of results) maybe it's nicer to try and 4-hydroxylate something like 5-MeO-tryptamines though i believe this doesn't work.

And yes, while aMT is a wonderful substance and anti-depressant, don't try to 4-hydroxylate it. It may also degrade and smell terribly in the process.

[quote=tihkal]The 4-hydroxy analogue of αMT has been looked at in human subjects. It is reported to be markedly visual in its effects, with some subjects reporting dizziness and a depressed feeling. There were, however, several toxic signs at doses of 15 to 20 milligrams orally, including abdominal pain, tachycardia, increased blood pressure and, with several people, headache and diarrhea.

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Mycoactive said:

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Psilotyl said:
Word. In order for this experiment to work best we would be working the class to the left, there are a lot of them. The result would belong to the middle class. AET/ AMT is a no go way too much going on there with those guys. They have ultralong lasting effects if I’m not mistaken. V Good info & very much sets the “classes” straight or sum such thang. Dang I’m getting excited about this. I could realistically do this as soon as next month possibly. Two tubs of same strain, one control and one supplemented.

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One of the most interesting aspects of this experiment is its unpredictability. If you do manage to get a host of 4-HO and/or 4-PO tryptamines, these will be formed alongside the fungi's endogenous tryptamines (psilocybin, psilocin, baeocystin, norbaeocystin, norpsilocin, etc.). Their effects in combination with each other are almost entirely unpredictable.

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Psilotyl said:
Okay so I have determined that this whole idea comes from yet another Gartz study in the 1980’s where he added DET to substrate and mushroom bodies produced 4-HO-DET. All I am finding are dead links to the study though :/ Digging deeper, let’s find this thing

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It's amazing but normal that organisms transform chemicals they absorb from their environment, it's metabolism. You are what you eat, you know haha.

Enzymes vary regarding how indifferent they are to their substrate. Sometimes they are (almost) so selective that there are (hardly) analogues possible which an enzyme will also accept.. but at other times they can perform changes on a wide range of compounds.
They kinda grab onto molecules with more or less complementary matching areas which can fit or not, or attract or repell. The 5-MeO is i believe thought to just not fit for a tryptamine to be 4-hydroxylated, the 5-MeO gets in the way probably in terms of space ("sterically") or electrostatic effects, doubtful to play as big a role in this case.

Ultimately its a challenge to subjectively tell differences between psychedelics, sometimes you think you know but in a double blind situation it can be suddenly surprisingly hard.
A change in duration of effects could be interesting..

Something else kinda fascinating is basically blocking effects by getting the hydroxylation done on a tryptamine which yields a basically inactive analogue. If there is great competition in the metabolism you could overwhelm most of the psilocin being produced and essentially make inactive cubes haha.
A worthless idea you might think haha, almost but not entirely.

Anyway it may be good to get as removed from the regular DMT substitution as possible and go with something like DALT or even DBT.

Also interesting seems to maybe attach a certain marker molecule to a tryptamine to easily tell it apart during analysis. There is a bunch of variations on the experiment. idk if i can get the full study/paper.

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TROXLER et al. (1 959) synthesized the two ethyl-analogs PT and HT of psilocybin and psilocin as well as many other tryptamine derivatives. These substances were not found in
any naturally growing mushrooms. The reported biotransformation of DT to PT and HT
is the first evidence of a directed biosynthesis of such substances in fungi. In comparison
with the levels of psilocybin and psilocin in naturally growing fruiting bodies (CHRISTIANSEN
and RASMUSSEN 1982, KOIKE etal. 1981, GARTZ 1987, SEME~IEVA etaf. 1986, WURST
et al. 1984), the amounts of PT and HT are higher in the cultivated fruiting bodies of P.
cubensis.
By performing quantitative analysis of the indole alkaloid levels in laboratory-grown
P. cubensis, large variations among different flushes were also found (GAKTZ 1987). It is
interesting to note that the size of the mushrooms was affected by the addition of DT to
the nutrient media. As shown in earlier investigations, cultures on malt agar and rice substrate also produced mushrooms in various amounts and with different appearance (GAKTZ
1987).
Baeocystin was first detected by LEUNG and PAUL (1968), who isolated this incompletely methylated counterpart of psilocybin from Psilocybe baeocystis SINGER and SMITH
grown in submerged culture. The alkaloid was subsequently detected in various collections
352 J. GARTZ
of P. semilanceata (GARTZ 1985a, CHRISTIANSEN and RASMUSSEN 1982, REPKE and LESLIE
1977, VANHAELEN-FASTRE and VANHAELEN 1984).
This investigation shows that even baeocystin as possible precursor in the psilocybin
biosynthesis occurs in significant amounts in Psilocybe species. The high amount of baeocystin as product of the biotransformation of MT indicates a high hydroxylation and phosphorylation capacity of the surface culture of P. semilanceata but a Low ability in methylation of tryptamine derivatives.

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Psilotyl said:
Okay so I have determined that this whole idea comes from yet another Gartz study in the 1980’s where he added DET to substrate and mushroom bodies produced 4-HO-DET. All I am finding are dead links to the study though :/ Digging deeper, let’s find this thing

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Psilotyl said:
I’m a little disappointed in Gartz in general. He apparently did so much wierd and cool stuff in Leipzig, and yet documents of it all are scarce. He doesn’t seem like he was particularly concerned with posterity or passing this stuff onward as much as he was experimenting for his own sake. Idk.

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