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Offlinegsmith
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3750090 - 02/08/05 07:24 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

another point is that most plane crashes occur at reduced speeds when pilots are attempting to regain control of the aircraft and "crash land" to ensure that as many people as possible survive. They certainly don't happen at over 500 miles an hour. (Missles, BTW, travel at roughly twice the speed of sound, or around 1300mph. At that speed you wouldn't even see it on the tape.)


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Offlinegsmith
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: gsmith]
    #3750107 - 02/08/05 07:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

found picture of a plane debris pile on a military server:

http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep2001/010914-F-8006R-002.jpg

also this handy page:

http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/

another thing to consider: The WTC was sheathed in metal, which offered little resistance to the speeding aircraft and is why we could actually see the outlines of the wings in the side of the building before it collapsed. The pentagon is made of solid granite. That sumbitch is tough...


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: gsmith]
    #3750289 - 02/08/05 09:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Wow, that site does an excellent job, thanks for that link.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3750784 - 02/08/05 11:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)


Phluck said:

like Michael Moore, or Seymour Hersh. These people, as hated as they might be by some, do follow some of the basic ethics of journalism.

Show me proof that Micheal Moore didn't follow basic ethics of journalism.

http://www.spj.org/ethics_code.asp

Here are some of the rules that are listed:

1. Test the accuracy of information from all sources and exercise care to avoid inadvertent error. Deliberate distortion is never permissible.

2. Make certain that headlines, news teases and promotional material, photos, video, audio, graphics, sound bites and quotations do not misrepresent. They should not oversimplify or highlight incidents out of context.

3. Examine their own cultural values and avoid imposing those values on others.

4. Avoid stereotyping by race, gender, age, religion, ethnicity, geography, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance or social status.

5. Distinguish between advocacy and news reporting. Analysis and commentary should be labeled and not misrepresent fact or context.

6. Recognize that gathering and reporting information may cause harm or discomfort. Pursuit of the news is not a license for arrogance.


Micheal Moore is nowhere near being a journalist nor does he follow journalistic rules. He is a Left-leaning commentator and documentary maker who is a blatant advocate for his pet causes.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3750797 - 02/08/05 11:55 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

That's "mockumentary", Randal.

Get the terminology right, please.



Phred


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3750837 - 02/08/05 12:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Michael Moore obviously shows bias, but he still does follow some basic rules of journalism. You'd be hard pressed to find a perfect journalist, and I wouldn't really consider Michael Moore to be a journalist, but he does operate within certain standards. I've never seen him fabricate anything, or draw ridiculous conclusions.

The guy is constantly demonized, and quite unfairly. He certainly has strong opinions, and his work reflects that, but you won't hear him saying stupid things like "the pentagon wasn't hit by a 757", or "there were bombs planted in the WTC" because he does not have evidence to back up such a statement.

Compare michaelmoore.com to infowars.com, and try and tell me you don't see a huge disparity in journalistic ethics.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3750903 - 02/08/05 12:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


but you won't hear him saying stupid things like "the pentagon wasn't hit by a 757", or "there were bombs planted in the WTC" because he does not have evidence to back up such a statement.


So because he isn't subscribing to some of the more wacky Left-ish conspiracy theories, that means he is "ok" and "accurate"?


I wouldn't really consider Michael Moore to be a journalist

Thank goodness you see that.

My opinion of Micheal Moore's work:

50% - Left-wing advocacy
50% - Commentary/Half-assed and skewed journalism

If you are familiar with Bill O'Reilly on Fox News here is my opinion of him:

10% - Journalism
30% - Ego and condescending attitude
30% - Injection of commentary and personal opinions into the discourse.
30% - Pandering to the Right.


but he does operate within certain standards.

The only standard he obeys is pushing his agenda.


I've never seen him fabricate anything, or draw ridiculous conclusions.

Ever watch "Bowling for Columbine"? What did he do when Charleton Heston brought up the simple fact that minorities are much more likely to be involved in gun deaths than white people? Moore tried to make Heston look like a racist.

Moore proceeded to compare America to Canada and say, "Well, Canada has black people and guns and it has a practically non-existent gun death rate". The idiot refused to look into the easily obtainable statistics that black people are much more numerous in the U.S. and they are eight times more likely to commit homicide than white people in the U.S. He refused to look at the racial angle which is actually a very important avenue to investigate when it comes to gun homicides. He instead blathered that "Americans live in fear. They buy a lot of guns. And this leads to gun violence". No it doesn't... Drugs and strong emotions lead to gun violence.

Did he bring up any of this stuff? Hell no....because it didn't fit his Lefty agenda.

Edited by RandalFlagg (02/08/05 12:28 PM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3750953 - 02/08/05 12:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The idiot refused to look into the easily obtainable statistics that black people are much more numerous in the U.S. and they are eight times more likely to commit homicide than white people in the U.S.

Toronto's black population: 8.3% in 2001
http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/health/hsi/pdf/hsi_cb_final_visible_minorities.pdf

New York's black population: between 6.2 and 10.6% in 2000
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcp/html/census/pop2000.html

I'm sure that when you average out all the smaller communities in Canada and the US, there are more blacks in the US... but the gun violence tends to be more in the major urban areas.

"Americans live in fear. They buy a lot of guns. And this leads to gun violence". No it doesn't... Drugs and strong emotions lead to gun violence.

...and fear isn't a strong emotion?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3750978 - 02/08/05 12:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


Toronto's black population: 8.1%
http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/health/hsi/pdf/hsi_cb_final_visible_minorities.pdf

New York's black population: between 6.2 and 10.6%
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcp/html/census/pop2000.html

I'm sure that when you average out all the smaller communities in Canada and the US, there are more blacks in the US...

There are. Don't you remember the statistics I posted for you? Canada had about a 2% black population and the U.S. has a 13% black population.


but the gun violence tends to be more in the major urban areas.

True.


Showing that Toronto and New York have roughly similar percentages of black people does not do anything to invalidate the simple fact that black Americans commit way more murders per capita than white Americans. Moore simply refused to explore this simple fact....it had to be because of his Left-ish bias.


...and fear isn't a strong emotion?

Fear is reponsible for very little of the gun deaths that occur in this country. Most gun deaths in this country are suicides, drug related, or anger related.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3751008 - 02/08/05 12:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


Showing that Toronto and New York have roughly similar percentages of black people does not do anything to invalidate the simple fact that black Americans commit way more murders per capita than white Americans. Moore simply refused to explore this simple fact....it had to be because of his Left-ish bias.


So if someone made a documentary that explored the possibility that the gun violence rates in the US are due to a racial difference, and played down cultural differences, would that be fair journalism? There are hundreds of other differences between the US and Canada that could also be factors, and if it is something as simple as race, then why aren't the gun violence levels in Toronto similar to those of New York, to reflect the similarity in racial population?

Most gun deaths in this country are suicides, drug related, or anger related.

To say that fear can't be a factor in all three of those things is nonsense.

What it comes down to here, is that Michael Moore has drawn a different conclusion than you have, and you equate this to dishonesty.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3751012 - 02/08/05 12:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It should also be noted that poor white americans commit more violent crimes than rich black americans. Would this not indicate that economic status has more to do with it than race?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3751041 - 02/08/05 01:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


So if someone made a documentary that explored the possibility that the gun violence rates in the US are due to a racial difference, and played down cultural differences, would that be fair journalism?

If somebody is going to make a documentary on such a serious and complicated subject(and at the same time claim to be genuinely looking for the real answer) they should investigate all avenues and not skew things towards their pre-conceived notions. Moore broke this rule severely in "Bowling for Columbine".


There are hundreds of other differences between the US and Canada that could also be factors, and if it is something as simple as race, then why aren't the gun violence levels in Toronto similar to those of New York, to reflect the similarity in racial population?

Hahaha...you chastise me for comparing Canada and the U.S. and saying that there could be hundreds of reasons for this or that. Yet, the main part of Moore's thesis in Bowling for Columbine was comparing Canada and the U.S. If I am guilty of simplistic comparisons...he surely is as well.


To say that fear can't be a factor in all three of those things is nonsense.

The main reasons why people get shot in America:

1. People kill themselves. Fear is not involved at all in this.
2. Money or Drug deals gone bad. Anger and resentment are the main motivating factors in this. Fear doesn't have much to do with this.
3. Emotional Anger. You get really pissed at someone who did something to you in the past or in the present. Fear doesn't have terribly much to do with that.

Fear may play a part in some gun deaths, but not the majority.


What it comes down to here, is that Michael Moore has drawn a different conclusion than you have, and you equate this to dishonesty.

No, what it comes down to is that he already knew what the tone and message of his documentary would be. He ignored certain avenues of investigation and skewed and patched things together in a way that supported his ideas. He presented himself as being someone who was truly interested in finding out why America had a high gun death rate. Instead he pursued and presented an ideological bias. That is why he was dishonest.

Edited by RandalFlagg (02/08/05 01:14 PM)

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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3751048 - 02/08/05 01:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It's funny when threads start to possibly question natural-born racial "equality" and people start pandering to avoid the conclusion.

Phluck, No, that doesn't indicate it at all. To draw a conclusion like that you'd need to compare two systems. The first would be a lower class white region and the second would be a lower class black region. For a wider range to draw conclusions from, pick 10 "pairs" of areas. Each area should be paired with another area that has very similiar standard of living, poverty level, poverty rates, etc. Then you could determine that conclusion. If you wanted to, you could ask why American Indians, despite being treated much worse by "whites" than blacks were, are doing better in standardized tests than blacks. Or why they live with a lower SOL than blacks, but have significantly less crime. But, we'd never do that because we might not like the turnout. so lets just say it again, class
"everyone is physiologically equal"
Repeat 10,000x from ages birth - 12 and it becomes true.


--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3751054 - 02/08/05 01:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


It should also be noted that poor white americans commit more violent crimes than rich black americans. Would this not indicate that economic status has more to do with it than race?

Definately a good point. Black Americans are more likely to live in poverty than whites. So, it could be argued that poverty and not race is what causes a lot of violent behavior and crime.

Moore explored that avenue in Bowling for Columbine(as he should have). But, he ignored other avenues because it didn't fit with his agenda. That is the point I am trying to get across. That is why I think he is dishonest. He is hopelessly poisoned by his ideological view of the world and anything he says and puts forth is suspect.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3751100 - 02/08/05 01:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hahaha...you chastise me for comparing Canada and the U.S. and saying that there could be hundreds of reasons for this or that. Yet, the main part of Moore's thesis in Bowling for Columbine was comparing Canada and the U.S. If I am guilty of simplistic comparisons...he surely is as well.

I didn't chastize you at all for comparing the two, and you might want to watch Bowling for Columbine again. Moore makes it pretty clear that he doesn't know why there is a big difference between violence in the US and Canada, but he suggests that culture and fear may be a factor. This is quite a bit different from drawing final conclusions.

People kill themselves. Fear is not involved at all in this.

So fear and self hatred are not intertwined? I guess you've got the human psyche all figured out then, huh?  :rolleyes:

Money or Drug deals gone bad. Anger and resentment are the main motivating factors in this. Fear doesn't have much to do with this.

So drug dealers carry guns in the expectation of being struck with anger or resentment?

Really, people buy guns out of fear, their attitudes are altered by fear. If your culture and media are dominated by fear mongering, it will quite likely have an effect on the attitudes and types of reactions people have.


No, what it comes down to is that he already knew what the tone and message of his documentary would be. He ignored certain avenues of investigation and skewed and patched things together in a way that supported his ideas. He presented himself as being someone who was truly interested in finding out why America had a high gun death rate. Instead he pursued and presented an ideological bias. That is why he was dishonest.


It's impossible to investigate every single avenue, and the only reasonable thing someone can do is to investigate what they feel are the most likely causes. I'm sure that if you decided to make a documentary about gun violence in the US, you'd start by investigating race, and that bias and idea would dominate throughout your investigation. No matter what, a lot of possibilities are going to be ignored. Simply because someone investigates different avenues than you would have chosen does not make them dishonest.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3751114 - 02/08/05 01:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

He is hopelessly poisoned by his ideological view of the world and anything he says and puts forth is suspect.

The thing is, I've never seen an example of any such investigation that isn't warped by someone's ideology. Expecting it not to be is unrealistic and unreasonable, and people choose to attack Moore not because he is any less honest than most, but because they disagree with him, yet generally show just as much bias towards their own opinions when criticising him.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3751138 - 02/08/05 01:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Really, people buy guns out of fear...



I've been around guns and gun owners my whole life, I've never known anyone who bought their guns out of fear. Not that I deny it happens, it's just that it doesn't happen very often where I'm from. I have known friends who had gotten rid of their guns because of their spouses' fears or fear of the legal ramifications of owning firearms that had been suddenly deemed illegal.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3751172 - 02/08/05 01:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You've never met anyone who bought a gun for self defense?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3751211 - 02/08/05 01:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


Moore makes it pretty clear that he doesn't know why there is a big difference between violence in the US and Canada, but he suggests that culture and fear may be a factor. This is quite a bit different from drawing final conclusions.

He makes it clear he doesn't know why?  What about all of the innuendo he puts forth in the movie?  What about when he lauds Canada's extensive socialism and health care system and at the same time berates America's "heartless capitalism"?  Or how about at every turn he tried to inspire sympathy for every poor person detailed in the movie and derision for every rich person shown in the movie?

Hm.....that doesn't lean to the Left at all....:rolleyes:

If you can't read between the lines, I will do it for you.  Here is what he was saying in the movie:

1.  Americans are stupid and full of fear.
2.  Because America is not 100% socialist, some people fall through the cracks.  Because of this, violence occurs and it is not the poor people's fault.
3.  People who have an interest in guns as a hobby or as a way for self-defense are complete wackos.
4.  The "straight-jacketing" of modern day society(where everyone needs to buy tons of stuff, compliantly listen to the media, and not question anything) is causing alienation which leads to fear.
5.  Anything that makes America look bad and other countries look more "enlightened" is good.  It serves to validate Moore's liberal self-hatred.

If those aren't Left-ish ideas, I don't know what is.


So fear and self hatred are not intertwined?

Being unhappy with your life doesn't usually have much to do with fear.  It has more to do with depression.


If your culture and media are dominated by fear mongering, it will quite likely have an effect on the attitudes and types of reactions people have.

True.  That is a valid point and the only thing of value that Moore put forth in his movie.


I'm sure that if you decided to make a documentary about gun violence in the US, you'd start by investigating race, and that bias and idea would dominate throughout your investigation.

I would investigate a lot of stuff...not just race.  I wouldn't let my preconceived notions affect my questions, my editing, or the scope of my investigation.  Moore didn't follow those basic ethical rules....that is why he is nowhere near being a journalist.  He is an advocate and a commentator who injects his opinions into stuff.  He is nothing more than that and I don't think he is to be taken seriously as a source of information.


Simply because someone investigates different avenues than you would have chosen does not make them dishonest.

Micheal Moore's ideological bias is obvious and glaring.  I don't trust people who are ruled by ideology.  I will listen to him, but with a very critical and skeptical viewpoint.  Ever since I saw some of the garbage he tried to put forth in Bowling for Columbine, I don't trust him.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: You gotta watch this flash video on the pentagon 9-11 attack. [Re: Phluck]
    #3751239 - 02/08/05 01:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


people choose to attack Moore not because he is any less honest than most, but because they disagree with him, yet generally show just as much bias towards their own opinions when criticising him.

Listen, we are going in circles here. Here is a summary of what I am trying to get across:

You claimed that Moore followed basic ethical journalistic standards. I disagree. He blatantly injects his ideological opinions into his work. That makes him a commentator....not a journalist.

Moore skewed his work and whatever evidence he cherry-picked to fit his prior opinions. That is not an honest investigation into a real problem. It is a dishonest exercise in ideological masturbation. I don't trust him at all....just like I don't trust Bill O'Reilly on Fox News.

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