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OfflineZekebomb
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mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0
    #3732753 - 02/04/05 11:40 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know if 'mathematically' is the exact word for what I mean, but you're about to see what it is I'm talking about, so whatever. (please note: for the purposes of this discussion it is assumed that Hate and Love are opposites.)

Basically we're going to look at two simple sentences.

#1) I love hate

you see, Hate wins here because I love it.

#2) I hate love

here Hate wins again because, since Love is hated, its opposite must be loved (see #1).

what's up with that?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 (2-2?) ;) [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3732844 - 02/04/05 11:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I love loving, hate?

I hate hating, love?


:confused:


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (02/05/05 12:03 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3732961 - 02/05/05 12:20 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I hate hate = love
I love hate = hate
I love love = love
I hate love = hate

Taken to the continuation, the duality of perception and semantics is evident even in this simple example. Quite a yin-yang hate and love are, though neither is inherently good or bad except as we relate it to them. Both are essential to chaos, change and evolution.

If all people love, this is not love. If all people hate, this is not hate. Rather, by the contrast between the two do love and hate appear in their glorious personalities that have shaped the world.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 (2-2?) ;) [Re: Gomp]
    #3733011 - 02/05/05 12:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

AAAAAaaaahhh  HAAAAAAAAAA....!!!!!   

Math + Emotion = ya~ need to start making some music....    :smirk:
(Just a theory of mine....)

But.....

HATE : DOMINANT
=
love : submissive
Black Leather  :  White Lace
Bitter Spice : Sweet Taste

The Hotness, the Coolness, the Smell of a Sandwich,
And a Tree in the Sky is The Ying to the Yangness....

The SUN in your Eye(I) is such Lemon Meringue'ness,
Yet the Snake in the Grass is more easily Tamed Fangless....
:grin:  :evil:  :grin:  :evil:  :grin:  :evil:  :grin:  :evil:  :grin:  :evil:  :grin: 


Edited by PhanTomCat (02/05/05 02:50 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Ravus]
    #3733108 - 02/05/05 12:44 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Taken to the continuation, the duality of perception and semantics is evident even in this simple example. Quite a yin-yang hate and love are, though neither is inherently good or bad except as we relate it to them.




Since when are hate and love opposites? Please explain how they lie opposing each other.

Also, your set of four "equations" are incorrect. For example, "I hate hate equals love". How does the hatred of hate somehow equal love? How does hatred of hatred itself somehow produce love? How can you take a verb and a noun and then equate them into one thing? When you hate something, hate being a verb, it doesn't matter what it is you hate - it is still hatred. At the same time, it doesn't matter what you love (the act of loving, a verb as well), it doesn't matter what you love - it is still love.

I fail to see the signifgance of these equations. :wink:

Quote:


If all people love, this is not love. If all people hate, this is not hate. Rather, by the contrast between the two do love and hate appear  in their glorious personalities that have shaped the world.




Once again, I'd like a reasonable explanation of how love and hatred are opposites, and that they only exist out of contrast between each other, please demonstate this. It is possible to show how positive and negative lie opposite of each other, it is possible to show how light and dark conceptually lie opposite of each other. Dark is the absence of light... is hatred the absence of love? :smirk:

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Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3733172 - 02/05/05 12:54 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
#1) I love hate

you see, Hate wins here because I love it.

#2) I hate love

here Hate wins again because, since Love is hated, its opposite must be loved (see #1).

what's up with that?




If I was to take a guess at "what's up with that?", I would have to say that your logic is seriously skewed, and that I don't understand what point is being gotten acrossed here... I simply see "confusing" word play. :grin:

For example, in #1, what does Hate win? In #2, how does hate become loved because love is hated? Whatever you are trying to get acrossed is based on an inaccurate assumption.

Also, is this really the appropriate forum for this?  :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3733194 - 02/05/05 01:01 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You are completely insane man.

But nevertheless I'll justify my half-joking response.

To hate is "To feel hostility or animosity toward." To love is "To have a deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward."

Hatred wishes harm on others. In pure hatred, you would gladly have them die or be inflicted with severe pain.

Love wishes happiness and peace on others. In pure love, you will die or be inflicted with pain for the ones you love. In actions, hatred and love become opposites.

While of course they are more subjective than positive and negative light, just as anything that exists in the mind is more subjective than anything that exists in the outer world, by the symbol of the yin-yang hatred and love become opposites. By hating hatred, you would wish death and an end to the intent to wish harm and death- you would stop hatred, and by stopping hatred, you would create peace and happiness for others, inspiring love.

And the absence of the yin does not necessarily mean the yang. Does the white create black, or rather does it create no color at all (nonexistence, neutrality)? Would you say the absence of black is white? Not necessarily, there are always gradients, there is always the vertex of neutrality, and in a universe as complex as this, there is always just the perception of duality. Hatred is only the opposite of love because our egos have separated them as such, but they are part of the same perfect circle.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Ravus]
    #3733296 - 02/05/05 01:22 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
You are completely insane man.




Duly noted. :nut:

Quote:

But nevertheless I'll justify my half-joking response.




*goes through rigorous, mental and physical preperations* :grin:

Quote:


Hatred wishes harm on others. In pure hatred, you would gladly have them die or be inflicted with severe pain.




All hatred wishes harm on others? I find that unlikely. What is the difference between pure hatred and mild hatred? Is ease to wish death on someone an intristic value of hatred?

Quote:


Love wishes happiness and peace on others. In pure love, you will die or be inflicted with pain for the ones you love. In actions, hatred and love become opposites.




Love doesn't wish anything on anyone. Also, one experiencing love does not necessarily wish happiness and peace on others. Your definiton of "pure love" sounds more like some form of insanity, and does not reflect the quality of love as I know it.

I do not understand how hatred and love become opposites through actions when the experience of either hatred or love does not equate into any certain action being taken.

Quote:


While of course they are more subjective than positive and negative light, just as anything that exists in the mind is more subjective than anything that exists in the outer world,




How is anything that exists in the mind more subjective than anything that exists in the "outer world"? Where does this "outer world" begin and end? Please draw the line between what solely exists in your mind and the "outer world".

Quote:


by the symbol of the yin-yang hatred and love become opposites.




That is, only if you change the definitions of hatred and love to be portrayed with the symbol of yin-yang. This would be no different than saying, through yin-yang, cats and dogs are opposites. Clearly, they are not.

Quote:


By hating hatred, you would wish death and an end to the intent to wish harm and death- you would stop hatred, and by stopping hatred, you would create peace and happiness for others, inspiring love.




First off, I do not see how one can automatically equate hatred with wishing death and an end. How does "hating hatred" produce an end of hatred? Hatred begets hatred, not love. Check with reality on this one.

Quote:


Would you say the absence of black is white? Not necessarily, there are always gradients, there is always the vertex of neutrality, and in a universe as complex as this, there is always just the perception of duality. Hatred is only the opposite of love because our egos have separated them as such, but they are part of the same perfect circle.




Hatred is only the opposite of love because some people misunderstand what hatred and love is and then make uninformed assumptions based on that. Running is not the opposite of walking, my friend, depression is not the opposite of satori.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Ravus]
    #3733329 - 02/05/05 01:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I hate hate = love
I love hate = hate
I love love = love
I hate love = hate





this is the key, for me. I was only looking at half the shit.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3733383 - 02/05/05 01:43 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks god said: Since when are hate and love opposites? Please explain how they lie opposing each other.




Quote:

Zekebomb said: (please note: for the purposes of this discussion it is assumed that Hate and Love are opposites.)




okay? and furthermore:

Quote:

fireworks god said: I'd like a reasonable explanation of how love and hatred are opposites, and that they only exist out of contrast between each other, please demonstate this.




I take this to mean you think they aren't opposites, and are therefore at least somewhat similar. if they were totally dissimilar, they'd be opposites. I for one think that Hate and Love are totally dissimilar.

Quote:

If I was to take a guess at "what's up with that?", I would have to say that your logic is seriously skewed, and that I don't understand what point is being gotten acrossed here... I simply see "confusing" word play.




your venomous tone notwithstanding, the point which I was attempting to "gotten acrossed" was based on yet another assumption, which I didn't even realize I had and therefore didn't relay to you: Love is positive and Hate is negative. That's why

Quote:

Ravus said:
I hate hate = love
I love hate = hate
I love love = love
I hate love = hate




worked for me. it is a math equation. it may not be true in the 'real world' of Love and Hate relationships, which I feel are probably a bit more complicated, but it's true if Love is a positive number and Hate is a negative number. Am I right?

I agree though, it was some confusing word play... but so what?


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3733453 - 02/05/05 01:59 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

AAaaaaahhhhhhhh, a battle of "LOGIC"    (including peppered word play)

Vs.

"SPIRITUAL"  - in the rules of a different perspective (as defined)....



(If I can make an observation, "Logic" seems a little more centered on this turf....)
:popcorn:  :yesnod:  I will be bookmarkin' this one....    :yesnod:    :popcorn:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3733503 - 02/05/05 02:07 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
I take this to mean you think they aren't opposites, and are therefore at least somewhat similar. if they were totally dissimilar, they'd be opposites. I for one think that Hate and Love are totally dissimilar.




Indeed I do. And another thing to consider that if two things are totally dissimilar, that does not imply that they are opposite. This in itself suggests flaws in your position on this.

As I said, I do not see hatred and love as being dissimilar, I see both as man's effort to eliminate suffering. The actions and states of mind might differ, but the intent is the same - to eliminate suffering. Care to dispute this? The difference between hatred and love is a result of misunderstanding and ignorance. Hatred only creates more suffering, obviously.

Quote:


your venomous tone notwithstanding,




Do you consider yourself an adequate judge of others tone? I do not see any trace of venom in my words, and suspect that you only perceive a venomous tone as your position was challenged, as I referred to flawed logic, the fact that I do not understand what point was being attempted to be conveyed, and that all I perceive is confusing word play. Reality as I perceived it, that is to say. Where's the venom, friend?

Quote:


Love is positive and Hate is negative
That's why...worked for me. it is a math equation. it may not be true in the 'real world' of Love and Hate relationships, which I feel are probably a bit more complicated, but it's true if Love is a positive number and Hate is a negative number. Am I right?




This is no different than saying that dog is a positive number and cat is a negative number. This is no different than replacing love with +2 and hate with -5.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3733576 - 02/05/05 02:20 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

hmm... two things can be totally dissimilar, and yet not be opposing? I can't picture that. can you give me an example?

I see both as man's effort to eliminate suffering.

okay. I see them as not that. agree to disagree.


Do you consider yourself an adequate judge of others tone?

yes I do, although I'll grant that the internet is shaky ground at best for judging tones. the 'venom' (a poor choice of word perhaps) I perceived was just in the fact that you sort of came along and took the piss out of my thread without adding anything. I assume you think you are 'helping' me to see the error of my illogical ways, but I never claimed to be logical. Nor do I now.

basically, the thing here is, I am allowed to have a wacky idea, and post it here. (Do you honestly think this thread is more suited for OTD or something? Culinary Arts, perhaps?) and you, in turn, are allowed to bring the full bristling gunnery of your logic to bear on my thread, if you like. Only know that I never claimed to be logically sound and therefore, I am like a cloud before your hail of bullets.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3733647 - 02/05/05 02:44 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
hmm... two things can be totally dissimilar, and yet not be opposing? I can't picture that. can you give me an example?




Well, to start off with, the definition of dissimilar is simply unlike; different, implying nothing concerning opposites. As far as an example goes, I dunno, my foot and the moon? :smirk: They don't share too many similarities, excluding the chunk of similarities shared by everything. I at least wouldn't propose that they are similar or opposite. :grin:

Quote:


okay. I see them as not that. agree to disagree.




All right, but I'd personally prefer to hear some reasoning as to why you would not see hatred and love in that respect, for the benefit of all, as I personally did. I was attempting to discuss this to bring light to the whole "are love and hate opposites" issue, and any added perspective would certainly assist us in developing that understanding.


Quote:


I perceived was just in the fact that you sort of came along and took the piss out of my thread without adding anything. I assume you think you are 'helping' me to see the error of my illogical ways, but I never claimed to be logical. Nor do I now.




I feel as if I did come into this thread with something that contributed to the proposed topic, specifically, the points I made concerning how love and hate are not opposites, the related parts towards the word play thing, etc. etc. etc. At the same time, I did call into question your logic, and asked for clarification as to what point was being conveyed. I do not expect or demand that you conduct yourself in a logical manner, and I never once had any sense of purpose relating to "helping you see the error of your ways". At the same time, I can analyze it from a logical standpoint and scrutinize it as I wish. :wink:

Quote:


basically, the thing here is, I am allowed to have a wacky idea, and post it here.




So long as it adheres to the main focus of this forum. At the time I questioned that, I was not so sure that it did. Of course, flows of discussion branching from that I would deem fit into this forum, and perhaps the initial post does fit here. It isn't my call anyways, I was simply expressing the fact that I wasn't personally clear that it did.

Quote:


(Do you honestly think this thread is more suited for OTD or something? Culinary Arts, perhaps?)




It isn't so much the thread itself, but the discussion that results from that thread, which does depend on the forum it is placed in. I personally feel that this thread has unfolded quite well and fits within this forum. :laugh: Sometimes I am in lower centers of consciousness and miss valid aspects of concepts and thoughts, when I am tired, its pretty much in and out. :lol: Never take me too seriously. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3734409 - 02/05/05 08:44 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The elementary mistake behind the original calculation is
in "love hate". That is impossible. You can prefer hate, but you can't love it. That is not love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3734955 - 02/05/05 01:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Hate and love are not opposites.  Hate is actually equal to love.

The opposite of love is apathy.  I may be wrong on all this and maybe Markos, with his educational background, can straighten me out.  :grin:

If you are in love with someone, you feel a whole lotta love.  Then you get in a fight, and you fel a whole lotta hate.  You don't really hate that person, you're just really angry.  If you didn't feel that love, you wouldn't have felt that hate.  It's really just pain of being hurt that causes hate. 

If you really didn't love that person any more, you would merely feel apathy.  You wouldn't engage in bitter struggles, such as some go through during the aftermath of the initiation of a divorce.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePed
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3734962 - 02/05/05 01:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>> All hatred wishes harm on others? I find that unlikely.

Hatred may not be involved in the wish to harm others, but it would certainly not be bothered when seeing others harmed. In this way, the experience of hatred is bereft of compassion, and compassion is intrinsic to love just as anger is intrinsic to hatred. While hatred may not necessarily lead to harmful actions, it always leads to harmful states of mind. Harmful actions come from harmful intentions, and it is only a harmful state of mind which can sustain a harmful intention.

Strictly speaking, I suppose it's correct to say that hatred and the wish to harm are not intrinsic to eachother. However, they are so closely related that it is useless to highlight their differences.


>> Love doesn't wish anything on anyone. Also, one experiencing love does not necessarily wish happiness and peace on others.

A feeling of love for another makes it unbearable for us to witness them experiencing suffering. Since all living beings are undergoing some form of suffering all of the time, if we have love for others unhindered by self-centred attachments and expectations, we shall be motivated to alleviate other's suffering by the wish that they experience only happiness and peace. While wishing happiness and peace on others may not be considered an intrinsic quality of love, love is a condition which must exist in our mind before we can sustain the wish that others be secure and at peace.

Strictly speaking, I suppose it's correct to say that love and the wish for others to be happy and at peace are not intrinsic to eachother. However, they are so closely related that it is useless to highlight their differences.


>> I do not see hatred and love as being dissimilar, I see both as man's effort to eliminate suffering.

The underlying unity of opposites, yin and yang style, is not something relevant to this discussion, I don't think. It is easy to take two concepts which are conventionally seen is mutually exclusive and, by citing some common factor (such as motivation), imply an underlying unity.

The wish to eliminate suffering for one's own benefit is a selfish motivation. Often, we turn to hatred as a means of feeling empowered. We come to rely on this feeling of empowerment to protect us from harm. In this way, hatred is adopted as a method to escape insecurity and avoid suffering. Just as often, we turn to attachment as a means of feeling secure. We attach ourselves to our partner, our friends, and expect that they will be continual sources of protection and delight. In this way, attachment is adopted as a method to escape insecurity and avoid suffering.

Attachment is directly linked to hatred because it's when other people frustrate our attachments that we begin to feel resentful toward them. Resentment quickly becomes anger, and our frustration becomes so exaggerated that we may even begin to hate the other person. Attachment and hatred share the same essential selfish motivation.

Very often, we confuse our feelings of attachment as being feelings of love, and from this point of view we might conclude that love is an essentially selfish feeling, just like hatred. From here we draw the further conclusion that love and hatred are the same because they share a common motivation. This is a dangerously mistaken conclusion.

Attachment is not the same as love. Love is not selfishly motivated: love does not enter into relationships with others with the sole wish to eliminate one's own suffering. Love is a state of being which suspends all expectations we have of the other person, and sees the mistakes they make as being merely the result of their misguidance. Just as a doctor would not refuse treatment to a mental patient who injured him because of his insanity, when we love somebody we would not refuse to care for them when out of misguidance they do things that might harm or frustrate us. When we truly, purely love somebody, we seem them as perfectly precious and whole, and we do not harbour any selfish attitudes toward them.

To suggest that love and hatred are the same because they share the same selfish motivation is not correct, because by definition love places the welfare of others above its own.


--------------------


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Frog]
    #3735003 - 02/05/05 01:42 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

thatis not hate, you don't feel hate, hate is a condition that makes you feel anger.

So if you hate someone, every time you see him you feel anger, and it makes you do bad stuff to him, but you can't feel hate, hate is a mindset, what you actually feel is anger.


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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Frog]
    #3735006 - 02/05/05 01:43 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>> If you are in love with someone, you feel a whole lotta love. Then you get in a fight, and you fel a whole lotta hate.

In this type of scenario, both individuals are confusing their love with attachment. A fight occurs because one or both individuals commit actions which make the other unhappy. The reason the other person has become unhappy is because they have the expectation that their partner will not behave in ways they do not like. This is a selfish attitude, and love is not selfish. Nor does love sustain any selfish dispositions.


>> You don't really hate that person, you're just really angry.

It would be more accurate to say, I think, that the person became angry because their attachments had become frustrated, and this temporarily obstructed their feelings of genuine love for the other person.


>> If you didn't feel that love, you wouldn't have felt that hate.

On the contrary, if that love were not intermixed with attachment, there'd have been no basis for the feelings of resentment which bloomed into anger and then hatred.


>> If you really didn't love that person any more, you would merely feel apathy. You wouldn't engage in bitter struggles, such as some go through during the aftermath of the initiation of a divorce.

I suppose it's true that an absence of love would lead to a feeling of indifference toward the other person, but the attachments to them would also have to be exhausted before this is so. Love does not sustain feelings of resentment: it is attachment which sustains this. For example, a friend of mine's parents have been involved in legal procedings surrounding their divorce for the past 14 years: they have in their hearts a desire to exact revenge on each other for causing them pain. This kind of wish does not come from loving another person; it comes from very strong attachment to them.


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Edited by Ped (02/05/05 01:46 PM)


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Re: mathematically speaking, Hate beats Love 2-0 [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3737964 - 02/06/05 12:16 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
I don't know if 'mathematically' is the exact word for what I mean, but you're about to see what it is I'm talking about, so whatever. (please note: for the purposes of this discussion it is assumed that Hate and Love are opposites.)




Nobody seems to be taking into account the original "guidelines" of the thread/topic.... Just for the purposes of THIS discussion (a temporary "rule" for this thread), Hate & Love are OPPOSITES....

Right and Left are opposites, Forwards and Backwards are opposites.... I would *assume* in this general sense, that the "opposites" would be equal too....

Is it not "OK" to momentarliy/abstractly change the "playing field" in a theoretical discussion...?


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