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OfflineLocus
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Re: Legalization [Re: Ravus]
    #3733205 - 02/04/05 11:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

LEGALIZE ALL DRUGS AND STOP THIS FUCKING BULLSHIT DRUG WAR ALREADY! That's what I want. Fucking throwing all the money out for no fucking reason and making things a lot worse than they would be if everything was fucking legalized al god damn fucking ready!!! We'd all fucking be better off. Crime rates, rehabilitation, money, safety, etc etc etc etc... Fucking will never stop pissing me off.


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Legalization [Re: Locus]
    #3733230 - 02/04/05 11:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Sadly I can't see that happening. Not even the majority of Shroomerites are for legalization, and it's a forum of people who use and cultivate illegal drugs. For the common person they'd be even more against legalization.  :frown:

Seems that many sheople think the government should decide what they can and can't put in their bodies. C'est la vie


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: Legalization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3733269 - 02/04/05 11:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The legalization of hard drugs (which, by my definition, do not include hallucinogens) has about as much chance of succeeding in this country as Ralph Nader has of becoming President.

Now, this is coming from my intuition, but I'm not so sure that making all recreational drugs available to the public wouldn't impact the overall useage of said drugs. Jesus, if cocaine was legal, I'd probably go get some right now! That's not a good thing, considering I've been clean for 3 years, and was severely addicted for 3 years before that. Heck, let's throw in some opium while we're at it! Can you imagine how many more people would be smoking opium if they could just get it at the corner drugstore? That's the main reason it was made illegal in the first place! Look at how widespread alcohol use is. This is due to many things, but one of those things is the fact that it's legal and incredibly easy to obtain!

Anyways, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon, so this is all hypothetical. That's why I say start with something more realistic, like ganja. There are so many people in this country whose extent of knowledge about drugs is limited to: "drugs are bad". I'm having a conversation on another website with a fellow who believes that pot is causing an epidemic of mental illness.

And, I'm not trying to be a bastard, but would someone just type: "Legalizing crack cocaine is a good idea."


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InvisibleSupernova
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Re: Legalization [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3733304 - 02/04/05 11:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Legalization of all drugs will never happen. Be real. Fight a battle you can win. Marijuana will be legalized because there are enough people backing it up, and it has legitimate arguments for legalization.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Legalization [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3733333 - 02/04/05 11:28 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Land_Crab said:
The legalization of hard drugs (which, by my definition, do not include hallucinogens) has about as much chance of succeeding in this country as Ralph Nader has of becoming President.



This has nothing to do with likelihood and everything to do with what's right.

Quote:

Now, this is coming from my intuition, but I'm not so sure that making all recreational drugs available to the public wouldn't impact the overall useage of said drugs. Jesus, if cocaine was legal, I'd probably go get some right now! That's not a good thing, considering I've been clean for 3 years, and was severely addicted for 3 years before that. Heck, let's throw in some opium while we're at it! Can you imagine how many more people would be smoking opium if they could just get it at the corner drugstore? That's the main reason it was made illegal in the first place! Look at how widespread alcohol use is. This is due to many things, but one of those things is the fact that it's legal and incredibly easy to obtain!



Look up the history of alcohol prohibition. Alcohol has always been common among Western society, and prohibition failed to change that. I'm sorry that you lack the self-control to not go to the store and buy cocaine, but how is that any different from going to your dealer to get it, other than the danger involved?

Quote:

Anyways, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon, so this is all hypothetical. That's why I say start with something more realistic, like ganja. There are so many people in this country whose extent of knowledge about drugs is limited to: "drugs are bad". I'm having a conversation on another website with a fellow who believes that pot is causing an epidemic of mental illness.



Again, I'm not dealing here with what will happen(who the hell knows for sure anyway), but what should happen.

Quote:

And, I'm not trying to be a bastard, but would someone just type: "Legalizing crack cocaine is a good idea."



Legalizing crack would be a damn good idea, as would legalizing meth, heroin, and all those other "evil" drugs.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Legalization [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3733353 - 02/04/05 11:36 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Read some history man. For example:

Your comment:
Quote:

Look at how widespread alcohol use is. This is due to many things, but one of those things is the fact that it's legal and incredibly easy to obtain!




Quote:

Although consumption of alcohol fell at the beginning of Prohibition, it subsequently increased. Alcohol became more dangerous to consume; crime increased and became "organized"; the court and prison systems were stretched to the breaking point; and corruption of public officials was rampant. No measurable gains were made in productivity or reduced absenteeism. Prohibition removed a significant source of tax revenue and greatly increased government spending. It led many drinkers to switch to opium, marijuana, patent medicines, cocaine, and other dangerous substances that they would have been unlikely to encounter in the absence of Prohibition. Those results are documented from a variety of sources, most of which, ironically, are the work of supporters of Prohibition--most economists and social scientists supported it. Their findings make the case against Prohibition that much stronger.

hird, the resources devoted to enforcement of Prohibition increased along with consumption. Heightened enforcement did not curtail consumption. The annual budget of the Bureau of Prohibition went from $4.4 million to $13.4 milion during the 1920s, while Coast Guard spending on Prohibition averaged over $13 million per year.[8] To those amounts should be added the expenditures of state and local governments.

Sunday's expectations of Prohibition were never realized. He and other champions of Prohibition expected it to reduce crime and solve a host of social problems by eliminating the Demon Rum. Early temperance reformers claimed that alcohol was responsible for everything from disease to broken homes. High on their list of evils were the crime and poverty associated with intemperance. They felt that the burden of taxes could be reduced if prisons and poorhouses could be emptied by abstinence. That perspective was largely based on interviews of inmates of prisons and poorhouses who claimed that their crimes and poverty were the result of alcohol.[40] Social "scientists" later used those correlations as propaganda "to persuade many people to turn to saloon suppression and prohibition."[41]

America had experienced a gradual decline in the rate of serious crimes over much of the 19th and early 20th centuries. That trend was unintentionally reversed by the efforts of the Prohibition movement. The homicide rate in large cities increased from 5.6 per 100,000 population during the first decade of the century to 8.4 during the second decade when the Harrison Narcotics Act, a wave of state alcohol prohibitions, and World War I alcohol restrictions were enacted. The homicide rate increased to 10 per 100,000 population during the 1920s, a 78 percent increase over the pre-Prohibition period.

The Volstead Act, passed to enforce the Eighteenth Amendment, had an immediate impact on crime. According to a study of 30 major U.S. cities, the number of crimes increased 24 percent between 1920 and 1921. The study revealed that during that period more money was spent on po- lice (11.4+ percent) and more people were arrested for violating Prohibition laws (102+ percent). But increased law enforcement efforts did not appear to reduce drinking: arrests for drunkenness and disorderly conduct increased 41 percent, and arrests of drunken drivers increased 81 percent. Among crimes with victims, thefts and burglaries increased 9 percent, while homicides and incidents of assault and battery increased 13 percent.[42] More crimes were committed because prohibition destroys legal jobs, creates black-market violence, diverts resources from enforcement of other laws, and greatly increases the prices people have to pay for the prohibited goods.



http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-157.html

Indeed, so alcohol prohibition didn't work. Look at the damage it does, and how much more it would cause if it was illegal.

Your next statement is obviously false, but I'll address it anyway.

Quote:

Heck, let's throw in some opium while we're at it! Can you imagine how many more people would be smoking opium if they could just get it at the corner drugstore? That's the main reason it was made illegal in the first place!




Nope, wrong again. In fact, the criminalization of opium, cocaine and marijuana had NOTHING AT ALL to do with health problems. It was all based purely on racism.

Quote:


In the early 20th century, labor leader Samuel Gompers set forth his
reasons to Congress why opium should be criminalized: "Opium gives the
Chinese immigrant workers an unfair advantage in the labor market."

Racists in Congress supported drug criminalization in order to
suppress the "Jew peddlers," while the State Department's "opium
commissioner," Hamilton Wright, urged criminalization of cocaine on
grounds that it turned African-Americans into rapists of white women.


On such specious and racist foundations were drugs criminalized. (It
is perhaps not an irony that today, at a time when African-Americans
struggle for economic opportunities, they make up 90 percent of those
actually prosecuted and incarcerated for minor drug offenses. The
devastating impact on the families, social fabric, and economic
opportunities for African-Americans is virtually impossible to measure.)

Indeed, drugs were considered only a "minor medical problem" prior to
criminalization in 1914. In the 1920s, Congressman Richard Hobson was
one of the first to realize the specious justifications for
criminalization and its terrible consequences: "Ten years ago [before
criminalization] the narcotic drug addiction problem was a minor
medical problem. Today, it is a major national problem, constituting
the chief factor menacing public health today."


Just as alcohol deaths skyrocketed during Prohibition, drug deaths
increased after criminalization, since illegal drugs are not subject
to orderly regulation for purity and safety. But the largest number of
deaths is due to drug criminalization itself. More than 1,600 murders
occur every year by drug dealers who take advantage of the profit
opportunities afforded by drug criminalization.



http://www.reconsider.org/tidbits/2004-03-14__What%20if%20a%20Martian%20came%20to%20the%20U_S__.htm

Oh, and by the way, legalizing crack cocaine is a good idea.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: Legalization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3733370 - 02/04/05 11:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Addiction has very little to do with self-control. Don't you know that?


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: Legalization [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3733581 - 02/05/05 12:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Statistics show that Prohibition reduced the annual per capita consumption from 9.8 liters (2.6 gal) of absolute alcohol during the period before state laws were effective (1906-1910) to 3.7 liters (0.97 gal) after Prohibition (1934)."
http://www.neworegontrail.com/prohibition.htm
http://ca.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564677/Prohibition.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ac108f855d2.htm

And don't condescend me and make this personal. If you can't have a conversation like an adult, then we have nothing left to talk about...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Legalization [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3734202 - 02/05/05 04:31 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I still don't understand the people that are against full legalization of all drugs. I don't care about the likelyhood of it happening or not, but I want to understand why people are against it.

So far, the only reason I have seen is: "I have seen or experienced addiction to hard drugs and it wasn't good. They are too dangerous for people to use and should be illegal."

Please, help me out here... what other reasons do you folks have for wanting to prevent people from being responsible for what they put into their own bodies?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSupernova
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Re: Legalization [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3735322 - 02/05/05 01:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Land_Crab said:
Addiction has very little to do with self-control. Don't you know that?




I totally disagree. Anyone can break an addiction by exerting self control. It may be VERY difficult, but unless self control is used, no addiction can be broken. Overcoming an addiction is all about self control. Having an addiction is all about lack of self control. The concept of addiction as a disease disgusts me. I used to be a cocaine addict. I used to be an alcoholic. I used to be addicted to LSD. I used to be addicted to opiates. I am no longer addicted to any of those things. Would I enjoy dropping acid? Yeah. Is it possible that I would start abusing it if I did it? Sure. Am I going to do it. No. Why? Because I have the self control to not do it. I am no longer addicted to those things. It makes some people feel better to say addiction is a disease. It takes away personal responsibility for your decision to use. The bottomline is that when you shoot up, it is you who is shooting up. You may tell yourself "I have to do it because I'm hooked and will suffer if I don't", but you still have the choice. You could not do it and suffer and overcome the addiction and free yourself of the addiction. This may require medication and hospitalization in serious cases, particularly with drugs like heroin and alcohol. But it is still the user's decision. Only the user has control over it. And that is by definition an issue of "self-control".


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OfflineLocus
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Re: Legalization [Re: Silversoul]
    #3735610 - 02/05/05 02:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

damn right man! that's what i am saying.. Ravus, Seuss, Paradigm... :thumbup:


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: Legalization [Re: Supernova]
    #3736383 - 02/05/05 05:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

supernova - I do not agree with your assessment of the nature of addiction.  Though willpower is a factor, it certainly isn't the only factor.  That's like looking at all of psychology and defining it only in terms of the Humanistic perspective (self-concept, free choice, and the potential for growth as the sources of behavior), while ignoring the Behavioral (the power of the environment to influence behavior), Psychodynamic (the unconscious), Cognitive (conscious thought, perception, and information processing as the causes of behavior), Sociocultural (social interaction and the cultural context of behavior), and Biological (emphasizes the influence of genetics and of physical processes occurring in the brain and the hormone system).  The point being that it's not as simple as explaining addiction as a matter of self-control, or lack thereof.

Of course the end decision whether or not to use is the responsibility of the individual, but there are factors that go into making that decision.  One of those factors is biology.  A heroin addict may continue to use because he is physically addicted to the drug, and just can't bear the symptoms of withdrawal.  Whatever free will he has is mitigated by biological processes beyond his control.    The fact that there are other forces at work beyond willpower is the reason why we have things like methadone clinics and treatment centers.  Just because a person can't beat a severe addiction on his own does not necessarily imply that he is weak-willed.

When we talk about biology and drug addiction, we are talking mostly about the biology of the brain.  The neural mechanisms by which addictive drugs act exist in the brains of all people.  Genetics certainly play a role in the propensity for addiction, as it has been proven that the offspring of alcoholics are more likely to become alcoholics themselves.

"Drugs that are truly addictive (stimulants, opiates, alcohol, nicotine) can actually substitute for food, sex, or other primary reinforcers.  This explains why rapid injection of cocaine or heroin produces a "rush" of pure pleasure that most users compare to the pleasure of orgasm.  This isn't only true for certain people who lack willpower, or who are willing to engage in a deviant lifestyle.  It is true for everyone who has a brain.  It automatically becomes easier to understand why addiction is such a common problem across cultures."
- BUZZED, p. 248

It's important for us to have conversations about this stuff, and to try to approach this incredibly broad topic with open minds.  I await further quotation gambits...  :grin:


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InvisibleShroomOmatic
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Re: Legalization [Re: Supernova]
    #3736687 - 02/05/05 06:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Booze does more dammage to people than marijauna. MJ should be legal before achole should.


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InvisibleSupernova
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Re: Legalization [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3736729 - 02/05/05 06:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Land Crab- I don't disagree with you. I have had my share of addictions. I continue to have many. Many of them are rooted in environmental and genetic factors I am sure. However, I find that those are too often used as excuses, and I believe it does most "addicts" a disservice to suggest to them that their addictions are "caused" by things that are beyond their control.

BTW, I'm aware of the various theories on addiction. I have undergraduate degrees in psychology and biochemistry. I just simply do not believe that there is any addiction that is beyond the ability of a human to overcome. I do understand, however, that many are enslaved by societal misconceptions about the nature of addiction. Such constraints cause them to give up hope. And when a person loses hope, the chances of overcoming an addiction are slim.

This is simply my belief. It's what has helped me to overcome many addictions.


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OfflineLocus
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Re: Legalization [Re: Supernova]
    #3739974 - 02/06/05 07:26 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I'll tell you one thing about addiction.. besides everything else.. if you're not happy with your life and you *need* that escape then you're not going to be able to stop. Or it will be a major part of what is keeping you from quitting, and relapse. But I guess this is a given anyway.


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: Legalization [Re: Supernova]
    #3740875 - 02/06/05 01:48 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I understand what you mean, supernova.  Hey, whatever works for you.  I am also familiar with addiction, as I have been a coke fiend and an alcoholic.  One thing that helped me overcome (for the most part) my alcoholism was hiding in the bushes (literally) and spying on people.  So if the shit fits, wear it.  :wexican:


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OfflinePsiliPSIENTIST
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Re: Legalization [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3751625 - 02/08/05 04:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, if drugs were legal our economy would, not so much go to shit, but probably become static. Rich oil farmers and stockholders in fortune 500 companies and shit like that are the ones who cnotrol this nation, they lobby(well pay lobbyists) and in turn control congress. If all these substances in question were legal I do believe many more people would be open to their use because so many people are reliant on what the government tells them, and if the government says "drugs are good now, mmmk" then people would be like oh! cool. Kinda like eggs, Uncle Sam said they were bad, then 10 years later they were good, then they were bad, now they're like in everyones fucking pathetic atkins diet because they are good again. The only problem is that, unlike eggs, drugs like marijuana and shrooms make people complacent, happy with what they have. I know shrooms taught me a lot, like to quit worrying about stupid shit, which is what drives America. Other drugs (coke, LSD, etc) people would no longer have to work so hard for and spending their whole paycheck on which, in turn is used by those who cash in to buy cadillacs on 22's and all kinds of shit, since upon legalization prices would hit the floor. This would all lead to a more utopian society with less crime, i believe, but stupid moneyhungry fucks that rule us just want more green and, without an act of God or whatever you believe in, will never have the brain capacity to broaden their views and realize money is the root of all evil. A utopian society would be so easy to acheive if everyone would stop bitchin about trying to make more of this abritrary piece of paper which they believe brings value to their lives. Damn them! I say we burn all the money in the world, respect everyone for his or her own beliefs, and just FUCKING LIVE! Sorry... I get pissed off when I think about how oppressive our rulers are in this "democracy", but seriously, why do people find it so hard just to fucking sit back and chill the fuck out!


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Legalization [Re: PsiliPSIENTIST]
    #3755086 - 02/09/05 07:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Legalization [Re: PsiliPSIENTIST]
    #3757035 - 02/09/05 04:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If all these substances in question were legal I do believe many more people would be open to their use because so many people are reliant on what the government tells them, and if the government says "drugs are good now, mmmk" then people would be like oh! cool.




:confused:

While it's an interesting theory, history and other countries have shown that dropping penalties, like in Oregon when it decriminalized, did not increase the rate of using marijuana, and the Netherlands, where marijuana is near legal and can be bought in coffeeshops, actually has less teens using marijuana than in the U.S. The government could have the same campaign against drugs as they do against cigarettes and alcohol, where they have commercials and warnings or such, and indeed remind of the harms of them, but in the end also let the people decide for themselves rather than being dictators over their free will.

You have an interesting belief on the legalization of drugs, but I really don't think it would impact us enough to make us a utopia. I doubt use would rise too much, except perhaps if people switched current drugs, like from using psilocybin to LSD or mescaline, but overall I doubt people who have been anti-drug all their lives will go out and buy a hit of acid or smoke some hash.

I do agree that any money-hungry people would try to take over the industry and control us though, that's happened with nearly everything us, from oil to food to clothes, so why not pot? Money and power hungry people are usually the ones who rise to the top of the industries, even now when drugs are illegal this is the case. The plus to having legal drugs is that the FDA and other legal organizations can balance out their lust for money and power to make sure they have a clean good product, and the people will assure that it's at a reasonable price as otherwise someone else will sell it for cheaper.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePsiliPSIENTIST
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Re: Legalization [Re: Ravus]
    #3757729 - 02/09/05 05:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah I guess I got carried away a bit on the whole utopia thing, its just I dont see it being that difficult of a thing to accomplish. If people would get the sticks outta their asses and worry about themselves instead of trying to control everything around them, it would be very possible to allow the legal use of drugs, everyone could worship in their own ways, everyone could do their own thing according to their own personal beliefs. Throughout history conflicts have just been matters of disagreements on subjects which are in essence irrelevant, yet these conflicts have lead over the centuries to where we are now, which is a total clusterfuck! And like you said Ravus, people who strive for power are the ones who have capitalized on this. Hell, I'm sure everyone here is aware that the "peacepipes" the native americans used weren't filled with homegrown tobacco, fuck no those guys were high as fuck, and shrooms were used in many of their rituals. People who wanted to get rich quick by selling land then began to use propaganda against them telling colonists they were invoking the devil by using magical concoctions, which eventually lead to common distaste for such drugs and years later lead to the criminalization. This explains why these drugs were first criminalized in the west, and with the influence America has had on the world it is now becoming an epidemic. Now, 400 years after westward expansion, the fear of drugs running rampid in capitalist countries is just irrational. Why have drugs which have been proven to be healthier and less of a risk than alcohol, cigarettes and even many otc drugs continue to be condemned? This seems to be the question that everyone wonders but no one really knows the answer to, so when we figure that out we can all work backwards from there and change things, but until then... well Im still gonna get fucked up whenever I damn well please!


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by Gumby
* if you found a bag of cash.....
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