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OfflineSunshinePounder
The Girl withthe Sun in HerEyes

Registered: 11/19/04
Posts: 288
Loc: Peace Man!
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
ok, I'm confused...
    #3719709 - 02/02/05 05:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

about casing materials. Here's my sitch: I understand pH levels and buffers.
I understand the different bases.
I can definately get Jiffy mix, or just plain peat, which, I would probly rather do, cuz the verm in the jiffy looks spent.
I got a couple of maybes on coco coir.
I still haven't located oyster shells (but I think this feed store might carry 'em for chickens)
I can get hydrated lime (short term buffer) pellated lime (chunks)
would a mixture of egg shells and hydrated lime work fair, mixed with peat or jiffy & verm?
I need to get a pH tester so, I can get a feel for what I'm doin'.
Any comments would help...

TYIA


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
Get yours

If I was the sun, I'd look for the shade~Liberty

Baby I love you, and you love me. Let's love each other to eternity~


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3720113 - 02/02/05 06:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What are you going to case(PF cakes, WBS)?

How big?

Have you done casings before?


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineMushroomFriend
Vargen ska fanleva!!
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3720182 - 02/02/05 07:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes eggshells and hydrated lime work fine. crushed eggshells for bit longer term (prepare casing material in larger quantities so the shells can do their work, when you need casing material teh shells already did soem work)

The peat/verm mix I used is like 90/10 and it works fine.

If you really live in Netherlands, shops like "intratuin" or "boerenbond" have what you need!

- wheat straw
- PH buffering
- wbs
- peat
- geolite
- cow dung, worm shit etc


--------------------


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InvisibleATWAR
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Registered: 01/26/03
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3720287 - 02/02/05 07:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
(prepare casing material in larger quantities so the shells can do their work, when you need casing material teh shells already did soem work)





Huh?
What work exactly do the egg shells do when prepared in advance?
I assume they only do it when you are not looking?








In reality, the egg shells will continue to buffer the Ph while the casing is alive and in use (long-term). That is, while the mycelium grows and secretes urea (and other metabolites), the egg shells will help to eliminate the lowering of the Ph caused by the waste...


--------------------
To give is to live...



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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3720323 - 02/02/05 07:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

As you say, it is a long term buffer so if prepared in advance teh casing material will have absorbed some of the calcium elements from the shells.
If you make it now and case it now the eggshells wont buffer much yet, that takes time. All depending on how fine they were crushed.

Maybe you understand it... :lol:


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OfflineSunshinePounder
The Girl withthe Sun in HerEyes

Registered: 11/19/04
Posts: 288
Loc: Peace Man!
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3720444 - 02/02/05 08:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

hmmm, well thanks, that helps.
Should I put eggshells in blender or just crush them? I think I can search for like eggshell sterilization and such.
Also, any suggestions for eggshell and hydrated lime amounts?
I need to go with what I got just in case I can't get the proper materials (coco, oyster, lime)

Thanx every one :wink:


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
Get yours

If I was the sun, I'd look for the shade~Liberty

Baby I love you, and you love me. Let's love each other to eternity~


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3720519 - 02/02/05 08:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
if prepared in advance teh casing material will have absorbed some of the calcium elements from the shells.




Are you sure about this?
Where did you find this information?


:rolleyes:


Egg shells and oyster shells are not very soluble in water. I do not see how they would do anything to the casing mix if prepared in advance and allowed to sit (age). It is simply used to off-set the lowering of Ph over time as the mycelium secretes acidic waste products... This "long-term" buffering action is seen when the casing layer is colonized, not when the casing is prepared. You cannot use oyster shells or egg shells alone to raise the Ph for this exact reason...


--------------------
To give is to live...



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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3720563 - 02/02/05 08:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think i agree w/ war...:shrug:


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OfflineSunshinePounder
The Girl withthe Sun in HerEyes

Registered: 11/19/04
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3721082 - 02/02/05 09:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

> You cannot use oyster shells or egg shells alone to raise the Ph for this exact reason

go on, please, I'm learnin' from this. I wouldn't know how to use hydrated lime. If I get to the point where I need to search again, let me know. I'm about to soon.

Thanks


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
Get yours

If I was the sun, I'd look for the shade~Liberty

Baby I love you, and you love me. Let's love each other to eternity~


Edited by SunshinePounder (02/02/05 10:01 PM)


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InvisibleJettaJay
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3722103 - 02/03/05 12:16 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Bump .... cause I wanna see more replies .... I AM LEARNING TOO DAMN IT


--------------------
I saw a little green light buzzing around in a tree, and it dawned on me that "they" were here
~~~LouiseLouise




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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: JettaJay]
    #3722381 - 02/03/05 12:53 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Here should be plenty to keep you occupied for awhile:

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/8
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/3288
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/565456/an/0/page/0
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1597724/an/0/page/0
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1041528/an/0/page/0


At the risk of sounding rude, I suggest you search, read the archives, and check the Shroomery grow guides if you intend to learn anything. Therein lies all the information you shall require. If not, come back and make a post with a specific question. There really is no reason why another member should search for this information for you...


Quote:

SunshinePounder said:
go on, please, I'm learnin' from this. I wouldn't know how to use hydrated lime. If I get to the point where I need to search again, let me know. I'm about to soon.




To use hydrated lime, you really need some Ph testing strips, or a meter. It is pretty much impossible to guess the starting Ph of your casing material, and even harder to estimate how much hydrated lime to add. You need to test, adjust, test, adjust, etc. until you get it right...

If you are planning to use a coir based mix (rather than a peat based mix) there is no reason for adding hydrated lime. Oyster shells, egg shells, or limestone grit is all that is needed (and it is optional, not necessarily required)...


--------------------
To give is to live...



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InvisibleJettaJay
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3722636 - 02/03/05 01:48 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ATWAR said:
Here should be plenty to keep you occupied for awhile:

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/8
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/3288
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/565456/an/0/page/0
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1597724/an/0/page/0
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1041528/an/0/page/0


At the risk of sounding rude, I suggest you search, read the archives, and check the Shroomery grow guides if you intend to learn anything. Therein lies all the information you shall require. If not, come back and make a post with a specific question. There really is no reason why another member should search for this information for you...








Ok first off I asked noone to look shit up for me .... I was bumping because the replies were interresting. I like to see everyone opinion. I know how to use the search function I have been here long enough to learn to search ... I do read the grow guides and I also read different teks. Like I said earlier in my rebute I just like to gather opinions from everyone. Thanks you that is all.


~~ JJ :gd_icon: :heart: Shine On


--------------------
I saw a little green light buzzing around in a tree, and it dawned on me that "they" were here
~~~LouiseLouise




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OfflineSunshinePounder
The Girl withthe Sun in HerEyes

Registered: 11/19/04
Posts: 288
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Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3722698 - 02/03/05 02:03 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

atwar said:

Here should be plenty to keep you occupied for awhile:

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/8
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/3288
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/565456/an/0/page/0
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1597724/an/0/page/0
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1041528/an/0/page/0


At the risk of sounding rude, I suggest you search, read the archives, and check the Shroomery grow guides if you intend to learn anything. Therein lies all the information you shall require. If not, come back and make a post with a specific question. There really is no reason why another member should search for this information for you...




Very good point. I have read all of these pages and more, I find it ironic that you would acuse me of having other members do my searching, when I'm sittin here getting pummeled with pm's about ppl askin me about terrariums and all kinds of other crap, when I know this information that I am giving out from just plain readin it.

So, let me get back o/t:
I am confused because I was gonna use Jiffy mix in the first place, or peat mixed with verm. In the pages to the links that you so kindly gave me, it says that if the pH is too low, my casing won't pin.
I haven't located coco yet (within 46 mi. of me at pet smart)
And I havent located oyster shell either.
Now, after reading those pages and more, I am pretty sure that if I case with jiffy/verm or peat/verm, the results will be less than desirable.

first you said:
Quote:

This "long-term" buffering action is seen when the casing layer is colonized, not when the casing is prepared. You cannot use oyster shells or egg shells alone to raise the Ph for this exact reason...




then, you said:
Quote:

Oyster shells, egg shells, or limestone grit is all that is needed (and it is optional, not necessarily required)...





I will get the coco, if I have to travel 46 mi for it.
I just wanted to know what my options to coco are, as I am not familiar with pH levels.

then you said :
Quote:

There really is no reason why another member should search for this information for you...




and I thought that really sucked. :nonono:

oops, sorry, you weren't talking to me :blush:
I am confused. well, I'm glad he bumped it, I need to learn more about this.
as I have learned alot already, thanks

:peace:


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
Get yours

If I was the sun, I'd look for the shade~Liberty

Baby I love you, and you love me. Let's love each other to eternity~


Edited by SunshinePounder (02/03/05 02:54 AM)


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InvisibleATWAR
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Registered: 01/26/03
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3722999 - 02/03/05 03:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

When one posts a question it is one thing. But to post something along the lines of "keep the replies coming, I am learning" suggests to me that the person expects people to post information on the subject at random rather than researching the problem on their own. This is like asking "tell me more about casings, I want to know". With no specific direction to continue the discussion, how can one proceed? Frankly, I could care less about what other members think about me, my posts, or how they interpret what I say. I am not here to make friends or enemies, but to share information and help people. But, it is impossible for me to help someone when I do not know what information they need... I hope you see my point... (and in case you didn't notice, my reply was to JettaJay. I do not see how I was accusing you of anything)




Now, back on topic...
I know nothing about the composition of jiffy mix, nor of its effectiveness as a casing layer (although I do know it is peat moss and vermiculite based). Most soil mixes that use peat moss as the primary ingredient have some sort of Ph buffer already mixed in. The only way to know the exact Ph of your casing mix is to test it using test strips, or a Ph meter...

Peat based casing mixes need to have some sort of Ph adjustment done to them at makeup as they are usually far too acidic (even for plants, thus the reason for buffers in potting soil mixes). Coir based substrates do not require this as they are generally neutral (or very close, depends on the water used to hydrate it). Then there is usually a long-term buffer that can be applied to either mix, usually in the form of crushed oyster shells, egg shells, or limestone grit. This long-term buffer is generally optional provided the casing layer is within the proper range for the species you are cultivating...



You should consider yourself lucky. I have to travel much farther to obtain coir... Pet smart should have both coir and crushed oyster shells...


--------------------
To give is to live...



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Invisiblemetasin
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3723050 - 02/03/05 03:23 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ATWAR said:
When one posts a question it is one thing. But to post something along the lines of "keep the replies coming, I am learning" suggests to me that the person expects people to post information on the subject at random rather than researching the problem on their own. This is like asking "tell me more about casings, I want to know". With no specific direction to continue the discussion, how can one proceed?





Ok, first off my reply is not directed to anyone in this post but at the Mush Cult forum in general. ATWAr, you just summed up the way I've been thinking in general here for a little bit now. You the same posts all the f'n time, if a n00b would search, read a tek, or go past the first page or three on the forum at least 50% of the posts on here wouldn't be here. I haven't even been reg'd here for that long and its bothering me already. I don't mind trying to help someone if I can, but sometimes to me it seems pointless because the ones that post the same question thats been posted a hundred times already, aren't gonna probably be around for too long. An endless cycle.
/ramble

::edit::
or someones having a lot of fun with puppets


Edited by recondite (02/03/05 03:55 AM)


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3723474 - 02/03/05 05:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Its logic.

If you dont crush them it takes much longer for the shells to penetrate the soil. Hence the long term, its is kinda stored. Then you have to wait weeks if not longer before something in PH changes. The more crushed they are the more instant they work. The more crushed the less "stored" and the more available to the mushrooms and other plants.

I use garden calcium, a sort of powder. Mixed through the peat real good it is an instand worker buffering immediatly.

Also I read very often you can use crushed oystershells alone as a PH buffer in teh casing.

But as mentioned I use garden calcium.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3723644 - 02/03/05 08:40 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Crush the eggshells? That won't do much of anything guys! Powderize them and they will be available as a long term buffer trust me. Chucks of eggshells don't breakdown for along time, A real long time! Long after your 20th flush to put it simply. GL


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3723659 - 02/03/05 08:48 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

thats what I said, when using crushed eggshells put them in some time before you need the casing.
Depending on how fine you crushed (powderize if you like) them it will take some time before it has effect on PH...


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3723977 - 02/03/05 11:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Its logic.

If you dont crush them it takes much longer for the shells to penetrate the soil. Hence the long term, its is kinda stored. Then you have to wait weeks if not longer before something in PH changes. The more crushed they are the more instant they work. The more crushed the less "stored" and the more available to the mushrooms and other plants.

I use garden calcium, a sort of powder. Mixed through the peat real good it is an instand worker buffering immediatly.

Also I read very often you can use crushed oystershells alone as a PH buffer in teh casing.

But as mentioned I use garden calcium.




Thats not how they work. I've been reading up on dolimite lime for some gardening usage..they say that no matter how much you add, it will put the pH at 7. It will rasie it if need be or lower it...it will put it to 7 everytime though. So I think the long term buffers wouldnt doo any more to start working since they arent really doing anything to begin with other then holding the pH right at 7. The pH won't go up or down the longer the casing mix sits there whether its in a jar or applied to a casing with mushrooms growing through it secreting acid. I think this is what Atwar was getting at...aging it wont do anything..its ready to use after mixing it in and PCing (or sterilizing however)


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Invisibletripndicular
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: hyphae]
    #3724074 - 02/03/05 11:46 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Crush the eggshells? That won't do much of anything guys! Powderize them and they will be available as a long term buffer trust me. Chucks of eggshells don't breakdown for  along time, A real long time! Long after your 20th flush to put it simply. GL




Thanx Hyphae that was exactally what I was going to say .
There are much better more reliable sources of buffering agents , ones that do the job when you need it done , like in 2nd and 3rd flushes .
20th flush LOL now you got all thees poor souls wondering "how do I get 20 flushes?" :wink:


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3724168 - 02/03/05 12:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ok I dont use dolomite lime but... I was talking the oyster and eggshells. I am sure they buffer the PH, say you have 2 liter of peat with PH 5. Add 2 liter of powderized eggshells I think the PH will change then. Or will it stay at 5???? I dont think so....

And what I said was that it makes a difference if you put chunks of eggshells in or finely crushed. If you use "chunks" to have it work one should add it way before you start casing. Hence better use grounded shells when you want quick results.

Why I do use garden calcium cause its made for growing plants and works fast, comes in powder form etc.. And last but not least, I use peat, PH needs to go up!

Are we understanding each other?? :confused:


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3727656 - 02/04/05 12:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
And what I said was that it makes a difference if you put chunks of eggshells in or finely crushed. If you use "chunks" to have it work one should add it way before you start casing.





You are still missing the entire point that other people and I have been trying to explain to you. There is NO point in "aging" a casing layer to take advantage of buffering agents. The egg shells or oyster shells do not dissolve in the casing layer much, if at all over time...



The "long-term" buffering action of these ingredients is only seen when the Ph changes due to the mycelium excretions. These ingredients work to keep the Ph range up while the mycelium waste is continually working to lower it. When you add these ingredients the overall Ph changes immediately, and will stay at the same level no matter how long you "age" the casing layer before application....


Quote:

Are we understanding each other??




Obviously not...
This is the last time I try to explain this to you...
Read all the replies over again until you get it. The answers are there...


--------------------
To give is to live...



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InvisibleDK1
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3728527 - 02/04/05 02:35 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

try using 60/40 verm/coir mix with 15% carbon carbonate for casing substrate.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3729111 - 02/04/05 06:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I already get it. But am afraid you did not! :wink: But feel free to read the replies over again, and again, till you get it! :lol:

Shall we bet that if we ground up a liter of egg- or oystershells and mix that with a liter of peat, that the PH of the substrate will raise?

Do that experiment, and measure PH of the peat before and after the adding of the shellpowder.

Then you will see! :grin:

MF


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OfflineSunshinePounder
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3729283 - 02/04/05 09:40 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

WOW, this has been a great thread, I learned alot. I understand how the buffers work, mostly just because I may not be able to get oystershell.
And, that was I that first asked people to go on and the main reason for that is not for some of the experienced growers in this thread to do the searching and the reading for me, I can do that myself, but rather to hear first hand some of the obstacles that you have already overcome.
Thank you all, you've helped me understand what will work and what will not.

:sun:


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
Get yours

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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3729681 - 02/04/05 12:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Shall we bet that if we ground up a liter of egg- or oystershells and mix that with a liter of peat, that the PH of the substrate will raise?





That is an immediate change, and not one seen by aging the casing.

:rolleyes:


The main disagreement I have is with the statement that making the casing "in advance" will have the added benefit that the egg shells will "have more time to do work"... It simply does not work that way. The calcium carbonate (no matter the source) will raise the Ph initially (provided it can be raised). Then, over time as the mycelium continues to lower it due to acidic metabolites, the additional buffers will work to keep it in check until they are overwhelmed. Time has nothing to do with this factor. It simply cannot change any further no matter how long you "age" it.

Those are two totally different things - immediate and "long-term" buffering (which is what I am afraid you do not understand)...
Stop flipping back and forth between one thing and another...











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OfflineSunshinePounder
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3729702 - 02/04/05 12:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well, it is known that oyster and egg are long term, and things like hydrated lime are short acting.
The thing that is now in question is the action itself, which is still helping me more than any reading I could do, b/c I'm simply inexperienced with pH levels. The only other way for me to learn is to do it and possibly fail. All I'm intending is the words of the experienced and thus helping to reduce my chances for failure and raise my chances at better crops :grin:
That said,  based on what I have read, the buffer in the casing layer would  neutralize the  ph in  the existing medium and absorb any other changes over time. It's just the ingredients ability to neutralize. This may be right or wrong, just suggesting.

Thank you all again for your experiences...


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3729744 - 02/04/05 12:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe you can buy a dog to tell what, and what not, to do. Wont work here.

Grounded shells (or any grounded source of calcium) effect PH rather fast, not so grounded takes longer time. Thats why one should put it in before to have it effect the PH.


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3729800 - 02/04/05 12:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Maybe you can buy a dog to tell what, and what not, to do. Wont work here.




:wtf:

As I said:
"It's better to close your mouth and be thought a fool, than to open it again and remove all doubt"




Quote:

Thats why one should put it in before to have it effect the PH.




Obviously.
I never said to add it afterwards.
:rolleyes:


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3729897 - 02/04/05 01:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

ah wordgames huh

"As I said:
"It's better to close your mouth and be thought a fool, than to open it again and remove all doubt""

Why do you speak then? :lol:

"Thats why one should put it in before to have it effect the PH."

Before (not an hour atwar but days if not weeks all depending on how fine it is crushed/grounded) the casing is being used you little smartass. :tongue:

You really seem at war? :lol:

Peace.. :wink:


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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730010 - 02/04/05 01:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Crushed egg/oystershell keep the pH from becoming to acidic after time, hydrated lime immediately raises pH NOW! these are two different animals and is why I always use a combination hydrated/long term buffer. Long term buffers work over time not immediately, thats why they have hydrated lime also :wink: GL guys


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Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: hyphae]
    #3730129 - 02/04/05 02:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

LOl

Thats why I said that when someone wants to increase PH with *eggshells* to add *eggshells* a certain time before the casing is being used. And it wouldnt surprise me that with fine grounded shells the time before it works is shorter.


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730311 - 02/04/05 02:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Thats why I said that when someone wants to increase PH with *eggshells* to add *eggshells* a certain time before the casing is being used..




Could you please elaborate on why eggshells effect the casing when you let it age, and how?

How long should the casing be aged for them to be effective?

Are there any actual facts behind this statement?


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: hyphae]
    #3730432 - 02/04/05 03:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Crushed egg/oystershell keep the pH from becoming to acidic after time




This means that it will not change the pH over time but cause it to stay where it is over time. It doesnt matter how long you let it sit for...if you add crushed egg shells and they dont kick in for 20 flushes, then they dont kick in for 20 flushes... Its not a time issue, its the issue of it taking that amount of mushrooms to grow before it starts to affect it.

If you choose to add eggshells youd need to powder them. You can not choose to just crush them and let it sit overtime. If you do your experiment and add calcium carbonate to some peat and see if it changes over time, you'll see it doesnt because its not water soluable.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3730521 - 02/04/05 03:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The long term buffer agent capacities of eggshells? Dont you know that yourself? :wink:

The more it is grounded the sooner it can be used by the substrate.  Why would we crush our oystershells and eggshells if it did not help? If you dont crush it its a super long term buffer! :grin: So the more you crush/ground it the shorter time it takes to eccet the casing.

How long how short? I havent got a clue.....

When do eggshells start doing their job according to you then? Can you prove that they cannot raise PH?

Etc etc.. :wink: You are just being argumentative and seem not wanting to see how simple it is.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730627 - 02/04/05 03:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
The more it is grounded the sooner it can be used by the substrate.  Why would we crush our oystershells and eggshells if it did not help? If you dont crush it its a super long term buffer! :grin: So the more you crush/ground it the shorter time it takes to eccet the casing.




EXACTLY!

The more its grounded the sooner it can be used by the SUBSTRATE. It needs to be used by the SUBSTRATE though. How will it do that sitting in jars aging?

Honestly I think it is you who dont relize how simple this is and are just being argumentative..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3730726 - 02/04/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

OMG if you dont have that fine grounded shells it needs more time before the substrate can use it. You can let it "age" in the jars if you want. Nothing wrong with making your casing material in large quantities.
The only point I am making is that:
1. oyster/ eggshells affect PH
2. the more it is grounded the faster it works. So if you only have eggshells as a buffer and crush the mby hand, to have it change the PH over lets say 2 weeks you must add it NOW. If you dont crush your shells then you might want to make the casing layer a year in afvance.. :wink:

Some people have a hard time believing that. And i am not gonna explain AGAIN! :grin: :wink:

MF


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730783 - 02/04/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I dont want it explained. I want to see PROOF. A pH test done on a jar of casing mix the day after it was made will be the same pH in months from that day with the addition of calcium carbonate before making it. Letting it sit in the jars WONT raise pH

Some people have a hard time believing that. I'm sure it will be explained AGAIN though. :smile:


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730942 - 02/04/05 04:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
I havent got a clue.....





That is clearly evident...


Quote:

When do eggshells start doing their job according to you then?




They start working when the Ph of the casing layer is affected by the mycelium waste accumulating. Once the Ph of the casing layer is adjusted, it stays that way until something acts upon it. This something is the mycelium waste in our case, which is acidic. The buildup of this waste (and the resulting lowering of the Ph) will be offset by the "long-term" buffering agents, which only become effective under these circumstances...

In the case of calcium carbonate, there is a maximum Ph which can be reached which is roughly neutral. When these materials combine, the acidic casing mix (peat) will dissolve a portion of the buffer, creating a "pocket" around each particle with a raised Ph level. Because this "pocket" surrounds the calcium carbonate particle, it cannot be dissolved any further, and thus cannot raise the Ph of adjacent casing material any further. This "pocket theory" is assuming maximum Ph has not been reached or exceeded with other ingredients such as hydrated lime, in which case it would also remain ineffective. However, when the mycelium excretes acidic waste byproducts, the calcium carbonate particles become effective, as the acidic conditions will allow them to be soluble once again. Calcium carbonate is soluble under conditions with a Ph lower than neutral. It is only under these circumstances that "long-term" buffers have an effect, because the acidic conditions permit them to be dissolved...


The "long-term" buffering agents will do nothing when the casing is just sitting (aging). Once the Ph hits a certain point, it simply cannot be raised any further by these types of ingredients. There is a maximum which is not overcome by time (age), or no matter how much they are "grounded".


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Edited by ATWAR (02/04/05 04:43 PM)


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OfflineSunshinePounder
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3731087 - 02/04/05 05:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It's a good thing I'm with ya, otherwise I would be confused. But I understand what we are talking about. I would like to get a test kit (even if just to get a feel for pH) and test and see how it works for sure. At this point, I don't know, but I do know what I'm gonna use for casing ingredients :thumbup:
Thanks all


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
Get yours

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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3731428 - 02/04/05 06:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Then proof it! :laugh:

That dude at war said that it didnt affect PH. I aint gonna proof it for you, dont feel for it, but I am sure that PH before adding eggshellpowder to your peat will be different then after you add it.

Maybe you are not sure, I dont care, anymore!  People like at war, getting hostile and dirty, trying to hit with words and sick comments cause I have my opinion. Not discussing the topic but trying to "win" points with sick comments in the margin.

Not interested in discussing with such dudes. Hence even you start yelling PROOF IT and such. I turn it the other way around. PROOF I AM WRONG, YOUR YELLING AND SNEAKY TACTICS DONT CUT WOOD.

So for me case closed, the ones who wanna use eggshells as an immediate buffer be sure to powder them real fine. Better to use other calcium sources to raise the PH instantly.


--------------------


Edited by MushroomFriend (02/04/05 06:32 PM)


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3731435 - 02/04/05 06:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I aint gonna read more of you shit, succes at war! :lol:

Consider yourself ignored.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3731572 - 02/04/05 06:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Simply crushing egg/oystershells will have little to no buffer effect as they don't really break down over time, you need to powderize them in order for them to be effective. It's really that simple :wink:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3731604 - 02/04/05 06:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I just really dont understand what you dont get MF. Eggshells will not work without acid. Peat IS acidic so it will work right when you add it to raise pH but only up to 7. If you leave it set and add no more acidity, then the pH WONT change. Sorry man, it wont. I've done it, and after months (I dont remember how many..around 3) there was no change (were talking coir here but same principals should apply) in pH. The buffer only starts to continue working again when its exposed to acid. Calcium carbonate isnt water soluable because water is neutral. But it is soluable in peat water (acidic) and will start to work. Atwar (who is a chick by the way) never said it didnt change the pH of peat, she said it doesnt CONTINUE to change the pH of peat while sitting in the jar. It needs to be applied to the substrate before it will start working again so it can get the acid.

Thats why HYDRATED lime is used if you want all effects to be instant...its soluable in water.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: hyphae]
    #3731717 - 02/04/05 07:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

YEP


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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3731734 - 02/04/05 07:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
Atwar (who is a chick by the way) never said it didnt change the pH of peat, she said it doesnt CONTINUE to change the pH of peat while sitting in the jar.




Thank you for pointing that out scatmanrav. While I do not really like the term "chick", I do prefer it to "dude"...


I would really like to know where it is that I said "that it didn't affect PH". I tried to find it, but I couldn't. It really is hard to try to explain something to somebody who doesn't even bother to read the replies, nor bother to understand them...
:rolleyes:

Calcium carbonate does indeed effect Ph (which is exactly why we use it as a buffer, obviously). But I fail to see how aging a casing layer could provide any advantage over just making it with the correct Ph from the beginning (even if it did work in the way that was claimed). Obviously some individuals have a hard time understanding simple concepts such as "long-term buffer" and how they work. Even when the concept is provided by multiple people, explained multiple ways... Should I feel bad that I am "ignored"? No, I don't think so... On the contrary, I feel bad for this individual, as they appear to have a serious learning impediment...




The egg shells do more work...
:lol:


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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3731793 - 02/04/05 07:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Caveat; I'm a noob and am really happy with my success so far.

I'm using verm/peat 50/50 with crushed egg shells. I bake the shells until they turn brown before crushing by hand. Baking burns off the semipermeable membrane inside, which otherwise might add nutrition to the casing. It also makes the shells crumble splendidly. The result contains both crushed and powdered bits of shell. It's a nice variety of particle sizes. Unbaked shells probably don't produce a homogeneous particle size either, but I haven't tried it.

The 50/50 tek on this site starts with hydrated lime, and later is updated to say that you don't need it. That's what I followed and it's working so far. Will I see 20 flushes? Stand by.....


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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ticktock]
    #3731857 - 02/04/05 08:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I started to get a little nervous about this thread at one point. But now it is complete, it is everything I hoped it would be.
Thank you all for a great conversation about casing layer ingredients and pH levels and adjustment techniques.
Seeing as ticktock vouches for pete and egg (I can get this locally), I will begin on this. Of course next time I go to the big city, I will pick up some coco.
5 ALL AROUND :cheers:


--------------------
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Get yours

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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3731870 - 02/04/05 08:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Peat is good ssp! :thumbup:


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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3731989 - 02/04/05 08:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:grin:


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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3734196 - 02/05/05 06:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup: :wink:


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