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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3724168 - 02/03/05 12:17 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Ok I dont use dolomite lime but... I was talking the oyster and eggshells. I am sure they buffer the PH, say you have 2 liter of peat with PH 5. Add 2 liter of powderized eggshells I think the PH will change then. Or will it stay at 5???? I dont think so....

And what I said was that it makes a difference if you put chunks of eggshells in or finely crushed. If you use "chunks" to have it work one should add it way before you start casing. Hence better use grounded shells when you want quick results.

Why I do use garden calcium cause its made for growing plants and works fast, comes in powder form etc.. And last but not least, I use peat, PH needs to go up!

Are we understanding each other?? :confused:


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3727656 - 02/04/05 12:08 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
And what I said was that it makes a difference if you put chunks of eggshells in or finely crushed. If you use "chunks" to have it work one should add it way before you start casing.





You are still missing the entire point that other people and I have been trying to explain to you. There is NO point in "aging" a casing layer to take advantage of buffering agents. The egg shells or oyster shells do not dissolve in the casing layer much, if at all over time...



The "long-term" buffering action of these ingredients is only seen when the Ph changes due to the mycelium excretions. These ingredients work to keep the Ph range up while the mycelium waste is continually working to lower it. When you add these ingredients the overall Ph changes immediately, and will stay at the same level no matter how long you "age" the casing layer before application....


Quote:

Are we understanding each other??




Obviously not...
This is the last time I try to explain this to you...
Read all the replies over again until you get it. The answers are there...


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InvisibleDK1
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3728527 - 02/04/05 02:35 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

try using 60/40 verm/coir mix with 15% carbon carbonate for casing substrate.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: SunshinePounder]
    #3729111 - 02/04/05 06:47 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I already get it. But am afraid you did not! :wink: But feel free to read the replies over again, and again, till you get it! :lol:

Shall we bet that if we ground up a liter of egg- or oystershells and mix that with a liter of peat, that the PH of the substrate will raise?

Do that experiment, and measure PH of the peat before and after the adding of the shellpowder.

Then you will see! :grin:

MF


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OfflineSunshinePounder
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3729283 - 02/04/05 09:40 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

WOW, this has been a great thread, I learned alot. I understand how the buffers work, mostly just because I may not be able to get oystershell.
And, that was I that first asked people to go on and the main reason for that is not for some of the experienced growers in this thread to do the searching and the reading for me, I can do that myself, but rather to hear first hand some of the obstacles that you have already overcome.
Thank you all, you've helped me understand what will work and what will not.

:sun:


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3729681 - 02/04/05 12:04 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Shall we bet that if we ground up a liter of egg- or oystershells and mix that with a liter of peat, that the PH of the substrate will raise?





That is an immediate change, and not one seen by aging the casing.

:rolleyes:


The main disagreement I have is with the statement that making the casing "in advance" will have the added benefit that the egg shells will "have more time to do work"... It simply does not work that way. The calcium carbonate (no matter the source) will raise the Ph initially (provided it can be raised). Then, over time as the mycelium continues to lower it due to acidic metabolites, the additional buffers will work to keep it in check until they are overwhelmed. Time has nothing to do with this factor. It simply cannot change any further no matter how long you "age" it.

Those are two totally different things - immediate and "long-term" buffering (which is what I am afraid you do not understand)...
Stop flipping back and forth between one thing and another...











---------------------

"It's better to close your mouth and be thought a fool, than to open it again and remove all doubt"


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OfflineSunshinePounder
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3729702 - 02/04/05 12:16 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Well, it is known that oyster and egg are long term, and things like hydrated lime are short acting.
The thing that is now in question is the action itself, which is still helping me more than any reading I could do, b/c I'm simply inexperienced with pH levels. The only other way for me to learn is to do it and possibly fail. All I'm intending is the words of the experienced and thus helping to reduce my chances for failure and raise my chances at better crops :grin:
That said,  based on what I have read, the buffer in the casing layer would  neutralize the  ph in  the existing medium and absorb any other changes over time. It's just the ingredients ability to neutralize. This may be right or wrong, just suggesting.

Thank you all again for your experiences...


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
Get yours

If I was the sun, I'd look for the shade~Liberty

Baby I love you, and you love me. Let's love each other to eternity~


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3729744 - 02/04/05 12:32 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe you can buy a dog to tell what, and what not, to do. Wont work here.

Grounded shells (or any grounded source of calcium) effect PH rather fast, not so grounded takes longer time. Thats why one should put it in before to have it effect the PH.


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3729800 - 02/04/05 12:48 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Maybe you can buy a dog to tell what, and what not, to do. Wont work here.




:wtf:

As I said:
"It's better to close your mouth and be thought a fool, than to open it again and remove all doubt"




Quote:

Thats why one should put it in before to have it effect the PH.




Obviously.
I never said to add it afterwards.
:rolleyes:


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3729897 - 02/04/05 01:18 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

ah wordgames huh

"As I said:
"It's better to close your mouth and be thought a fool, than to open it again and remove all doubt""

Why do you speak then? :lol:

"Thats why one should put it in before to have it effect the PH."

Before (not an hour atwar but days if not weeks all depending on how fine it is crushed/grounded) the casing is being used you little smartass. :tongue:

You really seem at war? :lol:

Peace.. :wink:


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730010 - 02/04/05 01:41 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Crushed egg/oystershell keep the pH from becoming to acidic after time, hydrated lime immediately raises pH NOW! these are two different animals and is why I always use a combination hydrated/long term buffer. Long term buffers work over time not immediately, thats why they have hydrated lime also :wink: GL guys


--------------------
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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: hyphae]
    #3730129 - 02/04/05 02:15 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

LOl

Thats why I said that when someone wants to increase PH with *eggshells* to add *eggshells* a certain time before the casing is being used. And it wouldnt surprise me that with fine grounded shells the time before it works is shorter.


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730311 - 02/04/05 02:56 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Thats why I said that when someone wants to increase PH with *eggshells* to add *eggshells* a certain time before the casing is being used..




Could you please elaborate on why eggshells effect the casing when you let it age, and how?

How long should the casing be aged for them to be effective?

Are there any actual facts behind this statement?


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: hyphae]
    #3730432 - 02/04/05 03:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Crushed egg/oystershell keep the pH from becoming to acidic after time




This means that it will not change the pH over time but cause it to stay where it is over time. It doesnt matter how long you let it sit for...if you add crushed egg shells and they dont kick in for 20 flushes, then they dont kick in for 20 flushes... Its not a time issue, its the issue of it taking that amount of mushrooms to grow before it starts to affect it.

If you choose to add eggshells youd need to powder them. You can not choose to just crush them and let it sit overtime. If you do your experiment and add calcium carbonate to some peat and see if it changes over time, you'll see it doesnt because its not water soluable.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3730521 - 02/04/05 03:27 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The long term buffer agent capacities of eggshells? Dont you know that yourself? :wink:

The more it is grounded the sooner it can be used by the substrate.  Why would we crush our oystershells and eggshells if it did not help? If you dont crush it its a super long term buffer! :grin: So the more you crush/ground it the shorter time it takes to eccet the casing.

How long how short? I havent got a clue.....

When do eggshells start doing their job according to you then? Can you prove that they cannot raise PH?

Etc etc.. :wink: You are just being argumentative and seem not wanting to see how simple it is.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730627 - 02/04/05 03:44 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
The more it is grounded the sooner it can be used by the substrate.  Why would we crush our oystershells and eggshells if it did not help? If you dont crush it its a super long term buffer! :grin: So the more you crush/ground it the shorter time it takes to eccet the casing.




EXACTLY!

The more its grounded the sooner it can be used by the SUBSTRATE. It needs to be used by the SUBSTRATE though. How will it do that sitting in jars aging?

Honestly I think it is you who dont relize how simple this is and are just being argumentative..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3730726 - 02/04/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

OMG if you dont have that fine grounded shells it needs more time before the substrate can use it. You can let it "age" in the jars if you want. Nothing wrong with making your casing material in large quantities.
The only point I am making is that:
1. oyster/ eggshells affect PH
2. the more it is grounded the faster it works. So if you only have eggshells as a buffer and crush the mby hand, to have it change the PH over lets say 2 weeks you must add it NOW. If you dont crush your shells then you might want to make the casing layer a year in afvance.. :wink:

Some people have a hard time believing that. And i am not gonna explain AGAIN! :grin: :wink:

MF


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730783 - 02/04/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I dont want it explained. I want to see PROOF. A pH test done on a jar of casing mix the day after it was made will be the same pH in months from that day with the addition of calcium carbonate before making it. Letting it sit in the jars WONT raise pH

Some people have a hard time believing that. I'm sure it will be explained AGAIN though. :smile:


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3730942 - 02/04/05 04:37 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
I havent got a clue.....





That is clearly evident...


Quote:

When do eggshells start doing their job according to you then?




They start working when the Ph of the casing layer is affected by the mycelium waste accumulating. Once the Ph of the casing layer is adjusted, it stays that way until something acts upon it. This something is the mycelium waste in our case, which is acidic. The buildup of this waste (and the resulting lowering of the Ph) will be offset by the "long-term" buffering agents, which only become effective under these circumstances...

In the case of calcium carbonate, there is a maximum Ph which can be reached which is roughly neutral. When these materials combine, the acidic casing mix (peat) will dissolve a portion of the buffer, creating a "pocket" around each particle with a raised Ph level. Because this "pocket" surrounds the calcium carbonate particle, it cannot be dissolved any further, and thus cannot raise the Ph of adjacent casing material any further. This "pocket theory" is assuming maximum Ph has not been reached or exceeded with other ingredients such as hydrated lime, in which case it would also remain ineffective. However, when the mycelium excretes acidic waste byproducts, the calcium carbonate particles become effective, as the acidic conditions will allow them to be soluble once again. Calcium carbonate is soluble under conditions with a Ph lower than neutral. It is only under these circumstances that "long-term" buffers have an effect, because the acidic conditions permit them to be dissolved...


The "long-term" buffering agents will do nothing when the casing is just sitting (aging). Once the Ph hits a certain point, it simply cannot be raised any further by these types of ingredients. There is a maximum which is not overcome by time (age), or no matter how much they are "grounded".


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Edited by ATWAR (02/04/05 04:43 PM)


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OfflineSunshinePounder
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Re: ok, I'm confused... [Re: ATWAR]
    #3731087 - 02/04/05 05:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

It's a good thing I'm with ya, otherwise I would be confused. But I understand what we are talking about. I would like to get a test kit (even if just to get a feel for pH) and test and see how it works for sure. At this point, I don't know, but I do know what I'm gonna use for casing ingredients :thumbup:
Thanks all


--------------------
My [url=www.http://tinyurl.com/6valr target=_blank]Unitarian Jihad Name[/url] is: Sister Claymore of The Short Path
Get yours

If I was the sun, I'd look for the shade~Liberty

Baby I love you, and you love me. Let's love each other to eternity~


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