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OfflineEllis Dee
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Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen
    #371914 - 08/14/01 04:50 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Blood on Their Hands
E. Ralph Hostetter
Monday, Aug. 13, 2001
The preamble to my Constitution does not read, "We the insects, reptiles and
rodents of the United States . do hereby ordain ."
My Constitution still reads "We, the people of the United States . do hereby
ordain ."

However, in the parlance of the radical left-wing extremists in the
endangered-species movement, "We the people" has become an anachronism.

Further, my Constitution guarantees the God-given right to life and the
natural right to property for all Americans.

However, in violation of sacred trusts guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution,
Tom Craven, 30, Devin Weaver, 21, Jessica Johnson, 19, and Karen
Fitzpatrick, 18, lie dead today, most certainly the victims of an
unconstitutional law (the Endangered Species Act) that has placed protection
of a few fish identified as "endangered species" above human life itself.

Insanity must rule in the halls of Congress to openly condone such a blatant
violation not only of the U.S. Constitution, which all congressmen swore to
uphold, but every moral law in the universe.

The cause of these tragic deaths began with a 25-acre forest fire in the
early morning of July 10, near the Chewuch River, in Washington's Northern
Cascade Range.

Under the authority of the Endangered Species Act, the Chewuch River had
been identified as the "protected" home of several species of salmon and
trout.

A massive cover-up of the incident followed for weeks. The only electronic
news media today that will mention it is Fox News.

Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth (the big boss) said he heard "a whisper"
of the incident on Monday, July 30. Twenty days later.

The rest of the story now reveals that at 5:30 a.m. on July 10, the fire
protection authorities near the Chewuch River ordered a helicopter water
drop to douse the 25-acre fire.

What ensued was a debate between fire protection authorities and
endangered-species representatives lasting for many hours. The
endangered-species people objected to the water drop, arguing that three
fish types, identified as endangered, might be dipped up in the water by the
helicopters and taken to douse the fire.

By the time the first water arrived at 3 p.m., eight and one-half hours
later, the fire had extended to the point that shortly thereafter it
"exploded" and the original 25-acre fire swept to 2,500 acres within three
hours.

By 5:25 p.m. all four firefighters were dead.

For years, an expired Endangered Species Act has not been renewed after its
mandated 10 years of existence, nor has the concept been abolished. The weak
leadership of both parties in Congress is afraid to renew the act and
terrified of abolishing it. The Greens (Watermelon Marxists) have
intimidated them into inaction. The courts are treating the law case by
case, mainly on issues involving property rights.

Hundreds upon hundreds of property rights cases involving the Endangered
Species Act exist. However, courts have turned a blind eye to the rights of
the property owner.

But now human life has been taken.

The Endangered Species Act, passed originally to save America's Symbol of
Liberty, the bald eagle, has been reduced to nothing more than an oppressive
weapon to abuse the American people. The law has taken on a God-like aura
protecting species as yet undiscovered.

The bald eagle has been saved.

Congress must act to kill this venomous snake, the Endangered Species Act,
that lies in wait to destroy not only American property rights but now, even
life itself.




--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinezetek
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Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #371972 - 08/14/01 04:50 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Rail Gun, Where did you copy and paste this horseshit from? This is a perfect example of Radical-right wing nutzology, trying to to take something that is good and turning it into some left-wing conspiracy against people.

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Offlinesir_shroom_alot
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Registered: 03/26/01
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Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: zetek]
    #371973 - 08/14/01 04:50 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I feel nothin but sadness for thos firefighters but those fish don't deserve to die soo the government can pt out a fire it probably started, or caused do to pollution and such. We humans think we own the place, im glad, we out number everything compared to our size

first u get the money, then u get the Weemen!
Wee men? what the hell are u talking about!
i said woman; no u didn't man!

~Ur PAYING ME IN HAIR CLIPPINGS! WHAT ARE U cRAZY?


--------------------
first u get the money, then u get the Weemen!
Wee men? what the hell are u talking about!
i said woman; no u didn't man!

~Ur PAYING ME IN HAIR CLIPPINGS! WHAT ARE U cRAZY?


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,044
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 3 hours, 32 minutes
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: zetek]
    #371975 - 08/14/01 04:50 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

zetek, the screwed up thing here is that 4 brave firefighters SACRIFICED THEIR LIVES FOR A FISH!!!! Don't you find anything troubleing about human beings dieing to protect the lives of fish?

The familis of these brave firemen have lost a loved one. And for what gain? For a frickin dumb fish. If the left wing environmetalist extremists had not made the law they made these brave men and women would still be alive. No one is to blame for their death except the environmentalists.

zetec, if you think the law is so right would you be willing to give your life for a fish?

BTW, it was cut and pasted from alt.politics.democrats



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineNorShroom
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 216
Loc: Kongsberg in Norway
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #371984 - 08/15/01 12:18 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Why couldnt they scoop up the water?`
I mean if it was a helicopter with a water bag then there
would be little chance of scooping up a fish from an entire lake.
That law needs to bee adjusted with an emergency type of
paragraph, but abolishing it would mean that there would be
no protection for endangered wildlife.
Seriously why does one need to remove it, does it interfere
with the economic interests of someone that owns a piece
of Bush`s ass? Power, oil corporations etc...?

"If you treat an individual as he is, he will stay as he is,
but if you treat him as he ought to be and could be,
he will become as he ought to be and could be"
-Goethe


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/24/00
Posts: 4,113
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #372097 - 08/15/01 04:09 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

It would be an interesting article, but there's too much goddamn fluff and bullshit and rhetoric.

If the facts are truly damning, then why the rhetoric?

http://www.captainjackmusic.com


--------------------
-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #372100 - 08/15/01 04:30 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Is there any proof of these facts? Any reference articles that are credible?

I think its clever if anything.

---
ACK CHOOIE UNF ACK CHOOIE UNF UNF UNF UNF UNF


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OfflinePhyl
old hand
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #372137 - 08/15/01 07:01 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

SACRIFICED THEIR LIVES FOR A FISH!!!!
No they didn't it's just bullshit right wing sensationalist journalism. The two issues (The deaths and the fish) are totally separate. You cannot say that if they had scooped the water the firefighters would definately have lived. Their deaths are due to unforseen complications with the fire, not the lack of water being dropped. What would have happened of the lake wasn't there?

I think it's sad that an entire subspecies of animals is deemed less important than 4 human lives. If the story was different and all the fish were killed but the fire was put out, I doubt the fish wowul dhave even got a mention in the press.

Take care

Phil



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Offlinezetek
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Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Phyl]
    #372184 - 08/15/01 09:11 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

This is horseshit started by Rush Limbaugh:
(the following is cut and pasted)

RUSH: A Congressman's call for an investigation into the deaths of four Washington State firefighters,
killed while fighting a forest fire on July 10, 2001, triggered a strong, indignant response from the Truth Detector.
Rep. Scott McInnis of Colorado raised allegations that fire-fighting helicopters may have been prevented from
getting water from certain nearby rivers because they were "protected" by the Endangered Species Act.

"The fact is that the environmentalist wackos have grown into a political steamroller that threatens lives,
threatens property, and threatens the American way of life! Can you believe this? Four human beings are dead because helicopters didn't get permission soon enough to scoop up water from a river in which lived some protected fish!
It is a direct?don't tell me this is unintended consequences! The people involved in formulating this kind of policy
know full well where this is going to lead?it's their intent! The whole movement?animal rights movement,
environmental wacko movement?the whole movement is designed to de-emphasize the primacy of human life!"
[Listen to Rush: Files /Audio 2001 / Aug 01 Firefighter Deaths]

REALITY: To the rest of the world this was an unproved accusation, but Rush treated it as incontrovertible fact?four dead because of the Endangered Species Act. Period. But Rush was wrong. Period.

Here?s how the story started. From an August 1, 2001 Seattle Post-Intelligencer article:

Rep. Scott McInnis of Colorado said he had "unverified" reports that an emergency request for a water drop to
assist firefighters in the Okanogan National Forest was delayed for at least two hours while officials examined
whether they could pull water from the Chewuch River without violating the Endangered Species Act?.McInnis,
an opponent of some aspects of the Endangered Species Act?repeatedly acknowledged his account "is strictly an allegation." http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/33458_fire01.shtml

The first indication this allegation didn?t ring true was the improbable amount of time that elapsed between the deaths (July 10) and the first published allegations (August 1) that the ESA was in some way to blame. Over three weeks. If four brave young fire fighters died because pilots were prevented by the ESA from scooping water from a river, the outcry from those on the scene?from the helicopter pilots on down?would surely have been loud and clear. And it would have been instantaneous.

The truth, of course, is not what Rush said happened. From an August 1, 2001 article in the Seattle Times:

"A nearly two-hour delay did occur that day, but not because of the strictures of ESA," said Elton Thomas, fire-management officer for the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests. "Water can be plucked from a river without permission from wildlife agencies during such an incident, Thomas said." http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/display?slug=fishfire01m&date=20010801

The US Fish and Wildlife Service confirmed that policy in a press release: ?wildland fires represent an emergency under the Endangered Species Act and that in no circumstances is emergency response to be delayed or
obstructed because of Endangered Species Act considerations. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service policy expressly states,
"Under no circumstances should a Service representative obstruct an emergency response decision....where human life is at stake." In the case of the Thirtymile Fire, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and National Marine Fisheries Service
officials were informed of Forest Service procedures to suppress ongoing fires on July 10 during an interagency briefing on local fires at the Wenatchee/Okanagan National Forest Office in Wenatchee, Washington. The U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service and the National Marine Fisheries Service did not impose any limitations on the effort to fight the Thirtymile Fire. http://news.fws.gov/newsreleases/display.cfm?NewsID=5EA65E19-9E63-41A9-A6E880DF5E71089D



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,044
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Last seen: 3 hours, 32 minutes
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen *DELETED* [Re: zetek]
    #372193 - 08/15/01 09:25 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Rail_Gun


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #372201 - 08/15/01 10:00 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"The familis of these brave firemen have lost a loved one. And for what gain? For a frickin dumb fish. "

The point is, we live in a balanced ecosystem. The EPA and various other government agencies exist to protect this ecosystem which humans depend on for our lives. We need to keep the ecosystem as balanced as possible so that our food chain is not adversely affected. If a fish species dies out, it has an effect throughout the ecosystem. This effect cannot be accurately measured. If we knock out some species, it could cause massive shocks throughout that animal's food chain, possibly causing human starvations around the globe. The lower down the food chain a species is, the more it has the potential to affect us. Generally, that also means that the smaller (and less apparently significant) the animal is, the more its extinction tends to affect larger animals such as humans. Thus, a fish has more of an effect on the system than does an American Bald Eagle.

Even if it were true that the water drop was held up by some rule in the ESA, and even if a water drop could have saved their lives, your firemen would not have died 'for a fricken dumb fish'. They would have died to protect and preserve the human race.

Anyway, after having looked into this further, I see that it was not government rules that caused deaths that day. The government rules specifically permit human-life saving action to be taken. What caused those deaths (if a water drop could indeed have saved those folks - which I seriously doubt) was the fact that people 'thought' that ESA rules 'might' have prevented a water drop. Those kinds of fears are built up by people like Rush Limbaugh, who make money from selling fear of government regulation. If anyone can be deemed responsible for those people's deaths, it's Rush Limbaugh and all the other anti-government wackos out there, as well as all the wacko conspiracy theorists that buy their anti-government bullshit.

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
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Edited by Beery on 08/15/01 09:41 AM.



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Offlinezetek
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Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
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Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #372203 - 08/15/01 10:00 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

they were killed as the direct result of the Endangered Species Act.




The delay was not caused by the ESA, it was caused by inept dispatchers.

"A nearly two-hour delay did occur that day, but not because of the strictures of ESA," said Elton Thomas, fire-management officer for the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests. "Water can be plucked from a river without permission from wildlife agencies during such an incident, Thomas said."

The Endangered Species Act doesn't kill people, people kill people.

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Edited by zetek on 08/15/01 09:02 AM.



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OfflinePhyl
old hand
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #372206 - 08/15/01 10:07 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

So you see, they were killed as the direct result of the Endangered Species Act

Bollocks. They were killed because the fire became out of control. Whether this would have happened if the water was dropped is irrelivent. Fire fighting is dangerous and unfortunately some fire fighters do get killed when fires are out of control. It's a shame, but it happens. There is no need to place blame on anyone, and to blame a totally unrealted law is totally nonsensical.

If a child runs onto a road from between two parked cars without looking and is hit and killed by a car, would you blame the owner of the parked cars for the accident because they obscuring the view of the child and the driver? Of course not. The child should have looked before running onto the road, just as the fire fighters should have ensured they were in as safe a position as possible to fight the fire. Yes it sucks that they died, but their safety whilst fighting the fire was their own responsibility, and I'm sure they didn't put themselves in a potentially life threatening position because they thought there might be some water being dropped on them and then they'd be alright. If they did, then I'd simply put their deaths down to evolution.

I'm sure there are situation where virtually every law can cause harm or death to individuals, but to abolish every law because of this would be crazy. Most laws, including the endangered species law, do far more good than harm.

Honestly I'm perplexed by you attitude toward this. What do you have against the endangered species law? Does it stop you hunting certain animals, or is it that you place the lives of a few people higher than that of an entire species of animals?

Take care

Phil



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Offlinezetek
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Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #372214 - 08/15/01 10:22 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

If the left wing environmetalist extremists had not made the law they made these brave men and women would still be alive. No one is to blame for their death except the environmentalists.




Richard Nixon signed the ESA into law, therefore it must be his fault, right?


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
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Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: zetek]
    #372886 - 08/16/01 08:59 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

It has come to my attention that E. Ralph Hostetter is a hack with very little credibility. I apolagize to everyone that spent their time reading through this thread.

Regards, RG



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhyl
old hand
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #372887 - 08/16/01 09:08 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

No offence dude, but could you not see that when you originally read the article. It's so full of holes that it's in danger of falling to pieces.



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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,044
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 3 hours, 32 minutes
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Phyl]
    #373477 - 08/17/01 04:34 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know man. I just saw the dead firemen thing and it caught my attention and held it. And I reposted it. Sorry for taking up everyones time with the story.

Nah, who am I kidding , it's all Rush Limbaugh's fault!!! j/k



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleHarry_Ballsonia
journeyman
Registered: 04/25/01
Posts: 45
Loc: Florida
Re: Environmentalists MURDERED 4 brave firemen [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #373551 - 08/17/01 08:17 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

It has come to my attention that you are a hack with very little credibility.

I really wish you'd make up your mind what you are and what you believe.

There are 2 things in life i enjoy....sex and ah?....well one thing i guess.............................


--------------------
There are 2 things in life i enjoy....sex and ah?....well one thing i guess.............................


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