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OfflineMegaloMello
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Registered: 01/20/05
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What is Matter?
    #3713915 - 02/01/05 04:48 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

hey yos,
I read this interesting idea earlier today that put the notion of matter itself into question, rather than questioning the subjective perspective of matter. Basically they were suggesting that what makes matter REAL is only our abilities to experience it through our senses. That you can't really know for sure whether something IS as you sense it to be. Take away something's form, scent, sound, texture...and what have you got?

It's not particularly a concept I've never thought about, but it struck me as interesting, especially the way the argument was worded.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What is Matter? [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3715320 - 02/01/05 09:13 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed, it is true. When you look up at the stars, you are not actually seeing the stars, rather there is just an area in the back of your brain that processes vision and gives the illusion that you are seeing something outside yourself. It is a persistent illusion though, as if we could hypothetically take our brains out of our head while keeping them attached and unhindered, we could actually "see" the area where our vision is processed. Weird eh?

Along with this, if you had the technology, you could simulate that area of the brain to make you see something that is not there. In fact, if you had the technology, you could put a brain in a glass tank, attach it to a computer, and the brain could live its whole life under the illusion that it had a body. It would look down and see a body, it would bend down and smell a rose, it would go to work, have sex, have kids, fall in love, grow old and die without ever moving out from the tank.

Everything that exists has only existed in our brains as far as we know, and since that is also something that exists, who's to say it's not also an illusion? This philosophy of the illusion of perception does make life a bit pointless and dreary though, so most people tend to ignore it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: What is Matter? [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3715398 - 02/01/05 09:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MegaloMello said:
... they were suggesting that what makes matter REAL is only our abilities to experience it through our senses.



** Sniff, sniff ** Doesn't pass the sniff test. If this were so, you wouldn't be able to kill someone if they were unconscious (none of their senses registering in their brain) now would you? I mean since they would not be experiencing the brick pounding into their skull... snipers would have to make sure their targets heard the crack of the gun by always using sub-sonic ammo, a high powered laser being used to vaporize someone from behind wouldn't work, etc., etc.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: What is Matter? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3717242 - 02/02/05 03:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

matter is real, how we percieve it is real. you guys are forgetting that you arent seeing the object you look at you are seeing hte light it reflects, and that hits your retina. Its all very real. Now we as humans dont get to "see" anything in any other manner, and that limits us, but it doesnt make what we do see any less real. A blind person can still stub his toe on the coffee table.

Now if you really want to get Philosophic, you start to wonder if ANYTHING is real, what if this entire world its whole existance is nothing but a dream of a person in a different world, what if we are a computer program, or perhaps we are sitting in the petrie dish of a some other civilazation. Maybe our entire universe rests inside an atom that makes up a pile of dog-shit, and if thats true then every atom in our world could be another universe. You start to wonder if thats true then where does it end? surely everything has a beginning and an end, doesnt it?


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is Matter? [Re: blaze2]
    #3718479 - 02/02/05 12:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What is Matter?
-The substances out of which a thing is and/or can be made?
-That which has mass and occupies space?
-Essential nature; essence?
-A material of a particular kind of constitution?
-Density?


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Offlinegnrm23
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Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: Gomp]
    #3718510 - 02/02/05 12:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

indo-european "root word" (seed syllable)

MTR

matter
matrix (womb)
mother
matriculate
meter
matya (russki/polska)
maya (illusion & the mother of siddharta?)

~

i'm sure there's more out there (anybody got an OED ?)

~
~
~
so is the underlying Q really:
is there an objective reality, or is it all subjective?

(or is it more:
what is the physical nature of matter?)

(so, should we ask the high energy physicists? eg: see the book _the god particle_ & find out about the search for higgs' boson (& why we should (should have?) fund the SSC down texas way)...
(& what about capra, zukav, wolf, sarafatti, bentov, & all?)
or should we ask the buddha? (& would he answer? :wink: )


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is Matter? [Re: gnrm23]
    #3718608 - 02/02/05 12:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

a perception of mass?


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Edited by Gomp (02/02/05 12:52 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: gnrm23]
    #3718626 - 02/02/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

we seem to be roughed in for a certain kind of matter
did any one see that last New Scientist article about the blind painter? (New Scientist - 29 January 2005 )Esref Armagan. The 51-year-old native of Istanbul, Turkey, who has been blind from birth?

apparently when he paints he constructs a reality that is much like our own, and he sees it - His visual cortex lights up to the same extent as that of a sighted person.

you could say that the senses matter, but the senses are in the brain, so what matters is the mind.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3718752 - 02/02/05 01:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

you could say that the senses matter, but the senses are in the brain, so what matters is the mind.

ARE the senses in the brain?

I think the brain reads the senses...but the sensory organs themselves are separate from the brain itself.

As for "what is matter"...matter is anything with mass. That's the simple physics explanation :wink:

Our consciousness is SEVERAL steps removed from the matter itself that we "perceive". First, as I said, our sensory organs are separate from our CNS (the eyes are the CLOSEST sensory organs to actually being a part of the brain...but even here there are separations). Your brain is not "feeling" the keys under your fingers...your fingers "feel" the keys, and your brain then interprets the patterns of nerve firings from your fingers as "feeling" the keys. In each case: your sensory organ enters an "excited" state, which produces a PATTERN of nerve activity which your brain then reads, interprets, and integrates the interpretation into your "reality".

Further, it is not the MATTER itself which we are able to sense. We sense FORCE, not MATTER. Your eyes do not "see" a tree, directly...they "see" certain wavelengths of Electromagnetic force which are REFLECTED by the tree. Your hand does not feel the tree bark, your hand "feels" the electromagnetic force that repels your hand from the surface of the tree bark.

We sense forces, and then use this sensory information to construct a (hopefully) accurate view of the actual matter in the world around us.


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: trendal]
    #3718941 - 02/02/05 02:19 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

a funny thing happens
we can build an image of the world by slapping a stick against the floor, the wall, and furniture.
or we can get a good picture from an electrode screen on our tongue which is rendering video into electrical pulses.
sure the senses operate (they are primary data collection) and they extend into sensory maps, but then they can be shunted all over the brain to develop "reality"

the main map seems to use a visual 3-d kind of layout, it's funny but kind of standard and maybe should be expected.

personally I adore the pre-perceptive sensory stuff, the kind that is really raw and before the picture is made. there is something shareable in that too


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3718955 - 02/02/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

How can you perceive, or even be aware of, pre-perceptive sensory information?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineMegaloMello
potatoe.

Registered: 01/20/05
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: trendal]
    #3724045 - 02/03/05 11:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe it's just the IDEA of sensory information existing before it is perceived? Ya know, does it even exist yet, if it has yet to be sensed in any way/shape/form? Tree falling in the forest kinda deal?

btw...some of these posts amuse me. I post a highly philosophical theory on matter with the focus on perception being the basis for physical manifestation, and people come back w/ describing it in basic materialistic terms. That gets away from the point, ya silly billies... :smirk:

Cassie


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3724163 - 02/03/05 12:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes but that is because there ARE "materialistic" explainations for matter. Its not a "open for debate" issue. So when you bring up a Philosophical point of view on the subject there is no point, because it has already been explained. Philosphy is about pondering things about which we have no answers, and on this subject there are. Thats why you got "materialistic" responses also known as the TRUTH.... Peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMegaloMello
potatoe.

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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: blaze2]
    #3724541 - 02/03/05 02:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

...the TRUTH...as you know it to be...

there are limits to a materialistic viewpoint...it's just one way of looking at it, that's just generally found to be the safest assumption...


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ride...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3724588 - 02/03/05 02:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> Basically they were suggesting that what makes matter REAL is only our abilities to experience it through our senses.

Ah yes, the old, "If a tree falls in the forest with nobody around to hear, does it still make a sound?"...

Another interesting aspect of matter is the amount of empty space in solid matter. If we were to expand the nucleus of an atom to the size of a baseball and place it at the center of a football stadium, the electrons that orbit the nucleus would circle the stadium in the parking lot. Everything between the nucleus and the electrons is empty space. What we consider solid matter is almost all empty space.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3724596 - 02/03/05 02:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What makes anything REAL then? The fact that you perceive it. No, the fact that it exists. Can matter really not exist and we are actually all delusional plugged into some matrix machine? Highly doubtful, that's why you have gotten "matterialistic" viewpoints. I should hope you get "matter"ialistic viewpoints, because there really is no evidence to suggest otherwise. The only reason to think otherwise would be based strickley off of faith and faith is a matter that doesn't really lead to any conclusive discussion.


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OfflineMegaloMello
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: relativexistance]
    #3724652 - 02/03/05 02:59 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:smile: relativexistance, ey? Existance, relative to what, may I ask?

The only point to topics such as this one is to THINK. Outside the box, preferably. Perception is dependant on external stimuli and vise versa. One can't REALLY say with certainty that matter just IS, and that's all there is to it.

You say "the fact that it exists" makes something real. What is that really saying? Something exists because it exists?

:stoned:


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3724721 - 02/03/05 03:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

hehe well at this moment, relative to the common physical conceptions of man's existance. :wink:

The way I see it matter is simply just condensed energy. This energy itself isn't a physical thing either, more or less some sort of arrangement/displacement/frequency of something else, possibly a plane of existance. Either way I don't know, the only thing I know is matter exists, if it didn't we wouldn't exist. Also I don't necessarily mean it physically exists, more along the lines that there is something whether or not we can properly interpret it's actual essence.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: relativexistance]
    #3727040 - 02/03/05 10:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

faith is a matter

/me cocks eyebrow


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Matter Musings (after alan watts) [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3727626 - 02/04/05 12:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Matter is the void; it is 'nothing.' It is the space between the light; the space between Ideas.


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