|
 JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland 
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
|
 abortion 
#3713393 - 02/01/05 12:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
what you all feel about it?
--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------
"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
|
Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3713414 - 02/01/05 12:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Ambivalent.
--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.
You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite
Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
|
freddurgan
Techgnostic
Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
|
|
I used to be totally pro-choice let-people-do-what-they-want, but I feel now that the greater responsibility is in birth control. Do it right or don't have sex. If you get pregnant and don't want it, tough. Put them up for adoption. There are alot of loving people out there who will give the child a better home than a cooler filled with ice.
Let the child live. Life can be shitty sometimes but it's wildly interesting sometimes too. Just think if you were aborted.
|
zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3713500 - 02/01/05 12:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Should be legal, but should be rare.
--------------------
|
Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
|
|
its the same as conceiving, whether you chose to abort, and/or whether you chose to conceive, it got same moral 'issues'?
--------------------
--------------------
Disclaimer!?
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Gomp]
#3713927 - 02/01/05 02:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
If you don't like abortion don't have one. But for the rest of us, I'm tired of people arguing on what women should or should not do with thier own bodies. Whether or not abortion is legal, women will do it. If it's illegal we'll set up safe, supportive underground clinics. That needs to happen anyways, especially in coutries where they are expensive even when legal.
|
 Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: abortion [Re: NiamhNyx]
#3713940 - 02/01/05 02:58 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I agree, but it should still be an absolute last resort. My wife and I considered an abortion before the birth of our third child because we did not have the money to raise it, we thought. My wife decided against it at the very last moment, in the clinic moments before the procedure, and we now we have a beautiful, highly intelligent, well behaved teenage daughter. We found the money and it worked out. We knew that life was sacred and that there was no compelling medical issue involved...just money. Abortion is the right of the individual, but it is still the taking of life and must be carefully considered like the taking of all life.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
|
|
Fair enough Hue, the point here is that it needs to be an option, and the option of the woman involved. Having an abortion is clearly an intensely complicated and emotionally driven issue. It's not easy and it's not black and white. The point is the only person qualified to make the choice is the person who is prenant, and no one has any right to interfere in her decision or to be anything other than supportive of her needs.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: abortion [Re: NiamhNyx]
#3714152 - 02/01/05 04:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Is it immoral that billions of my highly-prized genetic material (sperm) has gone to waste dashed on the rocks of infertility, condoms and Saran Wrap?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Swami]
#3714381 - 02/01/05 04:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
is there a defrence from billions of your sperm from say, an adult?
is there a defrence from billions of your sperm from say, a child?
is there a defrence from billions of your sperm from say, new born baby?
is there a defrence from billions of your sperm from say, a fetus?
I think the point is, where would you draw the line? and should you have the same "line" for others to follow? I think we all like to blow are load, and we do it guilt free, but does doing something guilt free make it ok? killing someone in a war, they do it guiltlessly, does that make it ok?
--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------
"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
|
freddurgan
Techgnostic
Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3714435 - 02/01/05 04:58 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Well yeah but sperm arent in the process of becoming a human. They are just sperm. If the sperm is already in the egg then it's a different story.
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3714465 - 02/01/05 05:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"What do ya say we lighten things up and talk about abortion.." -Bill Hicks
I got some points that need to be made about this...
In conjunction with the slight belief in the 49th day theory, I would go as far to say that a fetus is a conscious being, to some degree, and if there were to be made a line to draw between the killing of a lump of cells and a life, I would draw it there... legally. However I have no problem with death. Death is just as important as life in the grand scheme of things. People equate the word death to thoughts of darkness, evil, non-existence and such, while I dont think that death is really any of those things....
I find it much more selfish to bring a child into this world with a family that doesnt want it, and feels necessary to struggle to care for it. If given the choice of being aborted, or living a miserable life by some immature single mother, going from dad to dad.
Furthermore, it is kind of ridiculous to think that you can take life from something that has yet to really experience life. Lets say that even if a soul or whatever is created or entered the second a sperm collides with an egg, it still has yet to really become a human being. IMHO, death is a part of life, it is a cycle, and it NEEDS to happen, and to me it doesnt matter if that is a marine on the battlefield, someone getting murdered, someone dying from a stroke at the age of 106 or a fetus being dismembered; AND why is there so much emphasis and focus on fetus death? seems that once you are born you are off the list, screw you , have a nice life or dont, we dont seem to care now that you have escaped the placenta. It is as important to have compassion for all life as it is to have compassion for all death.
|
MrBump
Third prize is you're fired
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 4,263
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3715301 - 02/01/05 07:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
a product of our throw-away, convienence driven society.
people (and i definetly am not pointing fingers at just women, a hell of a lot of men tuck tail and run when they find out theyve knocked a girl up) dont want the responsibility of childrearing but are incapable of treating the act of sex itself as a HUGE responsibility.
its really sad that with all the sex education info out there combined w/ all the products that nearly guaranty pregnancy-free sex that abortion is still a prevalent topic in America.
that being said, IMO it should be legal while in the first trimester...it provides a safe alternative to the back alley coat-hanger abortion.
--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.
There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3715336 - 02/01/05 07:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'm all for it if it helps to reduce the population for future generations. I think people should try to go with birth control to begin with, but since that's never 100%, abortion always needs to be an option.
As long as the fetus is like a cancer growing inside the mother, it is the mother's decision I believe. After that cancer crawls out and joins the world he gets human rights, and there the line should be drawn.
--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: MrBump]
#3715506 - 02/01/05 07:49 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
thecornking said:
that being said, IMO it should be legal while in the first trimester...it provides a safe alternative to the back alley coat-hanger abortion.
I agree here.
--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------
"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: abortion [Re: Ravus]
#3715518 - 02/01/05 07:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"After that cancer crawls out and joins the world he gets human rights, and there the line should be drawn."
I don't know about that. I think abortion should be legal through the seventeenth year...it helps to keep those fetus' in line. My 3 fetus' are doing pretty good so they might make it.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Ravus]
#3715534 - 02/01/05 07:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ravus said:
As long as the fetus is like a cancer growing inside the mother, it is the mother's decision I believe. After that cancer crawls out and joins the world he gets human rights, and there the line should be drawn.
i'm sorry, I can't never look at a fetus and think of it as cancer.
I don't recall the name of the movie, but in it, it shows a real abortion, the fetus fights hard to avoid a sharp object coming towards it, and than the object hits it in it's chest, the fetus opens it's mouth wide, a silent scream.
fetus's are alive just like you and me.
--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------
"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
|
relativexistance
"beads, bees!?!?beads ....BEADS!!!"
Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 1,778
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3716164 - 02/01/05 09:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
You could argue that by birthing a child, the mother is giving them a right to life. However, if the child is unwanted and is conceived accidentally, the mother never gave that child the right to life, it just happened and the mother can do as she so pleases because she is the one that determines who she will give life to.
Either way I agree with thecornking and the first trimester idea.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3717128 - 02/02/05 12:55 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
From a moral standpoint, I'm against it in most cases, though I have fewer reservations about it if done during the first trimester. Politically, however, I think it would be better to keep it legal so it can be performed by trained doctors rather than amateurs with coat hangers.
--------------------
|
blaze2
The Witness
Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
|
|
first trimester for sure its fine, you have to realize that even tho it looks like a baby and has the potential to become a normal everyday person, in the first trimester it has little or no brain. Its about as smart as my iguana, adn thats not very smart. Its certainly not conscious of itself as babys dont even attaint that until the 4th or 5th year of life. In addition it should never be illegal for the victims of rape, and incest, or if it endangers the mothers life at all, or in the rare cases of severe birth defects, such as when the brain and spinal cord form outside the body in some fetus. Would you want to be born like that? I hope not. Might as well end it as soon as possible.
All that said it should be rare, and birthcontrol should be first. In texas you dont even have to find someone to adopt a baby you can leave the baby at a firestation, or hospital without fear of being prosecuted. Its called the baby moses law, and here in San Antonio its been used a few times. I think its a good option.
--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein
"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: blaze2]
#3717962 - 02/02/05 05:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Abortion Is not womans intimacy, it is a public issue because the baby or fetus is not possesion of the mother. It is a free individual.
The abilities of the fetus have nothing to do with it being a person or not. There are grown people that have no motoric functions and are just sitting there vegetating, yet they are considered persons. We feed them, they have rights and we give them shelter. We don't kill them
because they are expensive to take care of. Parents do not own their children or fetuses.
I'm not implying any morality here or saying we should do this or do that. I'm just pointing out the status of the fetus in the society.
If we chose to kill it, let it be, but we must be aware of what is it that we are killing and make sure we don't have double standards.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
|
|
> Parents do not own their children or fetuses.
Until born, a fetus is a parasite living off of a host.
> I'm just pointing out the status of the fetus in the society.
If it were this easy, there would be no debate over abortion.
--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.
|
Woland
The MercilessWarrior
Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 217
Loc: FL
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: NiamhNyx]
#3718175 - 02/02/05 08:11 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
"Having an abortion is clearly an intensely complicated and emotionally driven issue. It's not easy and it's not black and white."
heard that. I can't hardly think of a more emotional topic with more grey areas, except maybe suicide. 
|
blaze2
The Witness
Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Woland]
#3718558 - 02/02/05 10:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"The abilities of the fetus have nothing to do with it being a person or not. There are grown people that have no motoric functions and are just sitting there vegetating, yet they are considered persons. We feed them, they have rights and we give them shelter. We don't kill them"
I have no qaulms with with familys who want to euthanize a "vegtable" or "empty shell". These people dont even know they exist, and if they do what life is that really? who would want to live like that? Now on the other hand you have the people with illnessess, like ALS or MS etc, that in latter stages paralazation occurs, with severe pain, and other incomprehensible things. I think those people should have the right ot assisted suicide. It should be THEIR choice tho not a family members, and they should make the choice when it is clear that they are still concious of themselves, so there can be no doubt that it is their wish.
--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein
"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: blaze2]
#3719589 - 02/02/05 02:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I never said anything for or against abortion. I'm just saying we need to equalise the fetus in our minds to a vegetable-person sitting in the chair.
Only the fetus has the potential to be a human being.
And now I am saying something against abortion:
There is no substitue for life. Life of a slave, life of a tortured man, hungry man, is still life, and no matter how hard it may be for some there is always potential for happyness. Materialism is a passing fassion, not an eternal value, yet we think the child should not be born into a poor family because the lack of material possesions would make it and the family suffer. But that child could be born to be someone that doesn't care if he is poor or rich or hungry of fatt and fed, or could be the next messiah, someone like Marthin Luther King, or Timothy Leary that could push our civilisation one step further.
Man, the eternal slave of its wishes, desires and emotions and logic. Will he ever find peace that way? I doubt it.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
I still see this matter coming down to trying villify death. It seems that in some societies, and mainly america, we have been conditioned to think that death is a bad thing, and end to something. This is just one idea on death, which is something we have absolutely 0% knowledge on.
"If you are so pro-life, don't blick Med-clinics, lock arms, and block cemetaries" -Bill Hicks
I feel that one day, and that day is coming quick, that we will be forced to add to the Bill of rights or make a Law which legally determines down to the second in which a sperm+egg becomes a human being. More laws that dictate the "right to life" or how we are somewhat "forced" to remain living will only dampen the vitality and happiness of those who enjoy life. It is illegal in America right now, to commit suicide. I find this one of the most hilarious things ever! that a group of people got together, and voted on whether or not I have the ability to choose if i want to live or not... Do you see where more legislation and this pro-life thinking can lead to? much much more of this behaviour.
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
wow, i should have done some spell checking on that one, i blame the cigarette in my hand for that though... sorry
|
TheShroomHermit
Divine Hermit of the Everything
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 7,575
Loc: border of Canada and Mexi...
Last seen: 9 months, 29 days
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3720678 - 02/02/05 07:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Pro-choice, the women has the ultimate decision but the man involved also needs to figure out whether or not he wants to be a father. In my opinion, it's just as bad telling a women she can't choose to have an abortion as it is telling a man that he can't choose whether of not he wants to raise it. A person who resents having a child may not take care of it well.
Also, for those of you painting the picture that you should have the child anyways and give it up for adoption, consider how complex these kids grow up to be. Why didn't my parents want me? Who were they? Am I not good enough? etc. I also heard someone comment that there are plenty of good people out there who will scoop up these unwanted kids, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH!
Also, to those who think that abortion is murder... it's not. There is clearly a difference between cracking an egg for your breakfast and going out to the backyard with and axe and cutting off a chickens head. This developing clump of cells is alive, it plays a parasitic role on it's host. If anyone could make the choice, it would be the woman... not you, or your freinds, or your church. And certainly not the fetus. Bottom line, murdering a child before it is born is like popping a balloon before it has air in it.
When the adverse effects of overpopulation become more apparent, abortion may become a necessary and enforced practise. Or, we will have a great war to kill off the surplus... which is a contradiction the pro-lifers refuse to examine.
|
JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
|
|
--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------
"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
|
shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3721779 - 02/02/05 09:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
This is very simple for me.
A fetus is undergoing cell division and multiplication and is therefore alive.
The fetus has unique human DNA, and is therefore human.
Abortion destroys a unique human life. Destroying human life is wrong.
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
|
So if a sperm has unique DNA, would you consider flushing them down the toilet a destruction of human life?
Odd at the double standards people use anyway, they feel bad about a reflexive fetus in the womb being flushed out, but when they eat the constant meat of animals that have been raised in small cages their whole lives and then brutally slaughtered, they say that's life. I could see PETA being able to be completely anti-abortion without being hypocrites, but a regular meat-lover? They obviously don't care about life, and I'm willing to bet that seeing animals screaming as their throats get slit in front of them would sicken them more than an ultrasound video of a fetus.
Not that I'm a vegetarian, but I'm also not against the death of a fetus if a woman chooses it.
--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
|
Re: abortion [Re: Ravus]
#3722011 - 02/02/05 10:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So if a sperm has unique DNA, would you consider flushing them down the toilet a destruction of human life?
Maybe my simplicity was too complex for you ravus.
Let us review.
A fetus is undergoing cell division and multiplication and is therefore alive.
A sperm cell does not undergo cell division and reproduction.
A fetus has unique human DNA, and is therefore human.
A sperm cell does not have unique human DNA. It only carries half of the DNA required to produce a unique human.
So to answer your question. No; flushing sperm down the toilet is not the destruction of human life.
|
MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
|
|
I agree Shroomydan. But can you justify making this decision for another human being? I sure can't. I am pro-choice because I will never tell another human being what to do with their own body. I don't agree with abortion. But it's not my choice to make for others.
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
|
Quote:
No; flushing sperm down the toilet is not the destruction of human life.
I just wanted you to say it.
I'm glad that's the case, because otherwise I couldn't sleep at night knowing I had let quite a few girls swallow my children! 
--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
|
Re: abortion [Re: MOTH]
#3722329 - 02/02/05 10:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I am pro-choice because I will never tell another human being what to do with their own body.
A preborn baby is not the body of the mother; it is a unique human life. As such I believe it deserves equal protection under the law. I am pro-choice too, but I don't think freedom of choice should give anybody the legal right to kill anybody else. We don't allow parents to kill there children after they are born, so why before? It seems to me that all the arguments for abortion could easily be used to justify infanticide.
|
barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3722589 - 02/02/05 11:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I think woman should be able to decide if they want to have the child or not and it shouldn't be any other way. I don't like to see potential life thrown away like that though because who knows what amazing things that child may accomplish later in life. All the people you look up to and respect might not even had existed like Leary and Mckenna, etc. and seeing the things those people do makes me think any child has the utmost potential to do something great for man kind. But who knows maybe that childs energy is just passed onto another if they are killed in the womb.
touchie subject i guess but the bottom line is woman should be allowed to make their own decision about a child in their womb, death or life.
--------------------
"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
|
PsiloSimon
amateurmycologist
Registered: 02/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: the universe
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
|
Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3723530 - 02/03/05 04:51 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'm glad that we have the choice to legally have an abortion, otherwise a lot people would still be trying to do it themselves.
I believe that a fetus is nothing more than a potential individual.
This rule applies to everything:
If you try to make something that is natural illegal, you will have corruption.
--------------------
IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
I guess since abortions would be done this way or that way be it legal or not, all we can do by making it illegal is punish people and not prevent it. And we don't need more punishment in this society.
The woman will have a ghost of a dead child (motephircally) behind her and a really bad memory, at least in her subconsciousness. It would be cruel to punish her wil jail.
But the event of abortion is something we should cry over, and not feel relieved when it's done. Every life is a miracle.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
|
|
Quote:
This is very simple for me.
A fetus is undergoing cell division and multiplication and is therefore alive.
The fetus has unique human DNA, and is therefore human.
Abortion destroys a unique human life. Destroying human life is wrong.
I agree with almost everything you said. What bothers me is when pro-lifers try to change the definitions used to expand existing laws into new areas. "Lets all pretend that a fetus is a baby, and since it is illegal to murder a baby, it is illegal to have an abortion." To me, this is very wrong. If we want to outlaw abortion, then make murding a fetus illegal, don't try and change the definitions of the word.
--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.
|
Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
|
|
Quote:
We don't allow parents to kill there children after they are born, so why before?
because the fetus is not a child, it is a fetus.
|
gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
|
Re: abortion [Re: Vvellum]
#3724160 - 02/03/05 10:14 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"a fetus is a gamete's method of producing more gametes"
(attributed to lazarus long)
~
gametes (from spematogeniesis or oogenesis)
fuse (if conditions are "right") to form zygote (aka "fertlization")
zyote implants (if condions are right) into wall of womb (endometrium) or elsewhere (oh oh - define: ectopic preganacy)
zygote alters maternal chemistry to avoid rejection of "foreign tissue" to become embryo
embryo develops over the course of a few weeks to become fetus (jewish law says that the fetus is human when it "quickens in the womb" - like, when the mother can feel the baby kicking)(& u.s.a. lawyers struggle to decide when the developing fetus ("unborn child") is capable of surviving ex utero)
fetus is delivered via mother's labor (or via doctor's C-section) to become neonate... (i.e. "newborn")
~
now, if "abortion" is technically the ending of a pregnancy (& a non-viable offspring) prior to full term (9 months)...
well...
most sex acts do not result in fertilization...
ok...
but IF "human life begins with "conception" (= gametal fusion = fertilization)
well, most fertilizations do not implant in uterine wall (or implant elswhere, bad news for mom)...
and many implants are sloughed off at the womans next period ("something" wasn't right - either with the genetic material itself, or with the "fallow field" of her endometrium...) or with the coming of her next menses (many "skipped periods" are in fact early "stillbirth" events...)
and even as the fetus is developing further along, women still can "lose the baby" (medical risks to mother: a medical abortion/pregnancy termination is about as risky to the woamn as is carrying the child to full term & delivering)
SO --- since most fertilizations do not result in live births, the world's number one "abortionist" is god himself...
so go picket jehovah's house instead of the doctor's clinic, mmmkay?
--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: gnrm23]
#3725670 - 02/03/05 05:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Destroying human life is wrong? who told you this? was it our government? which seems to have no respect for life..... was it God? who killed millions according to the bible..... sure, it all soudns great and idealistic to say that "no one should ever kill anyone else" , but get real. What about the people whose culture is ambivalent to murder, and show no remorse for such acts? are they wrong? maybe in your eyes they are, but that is just one opinion. Go along in your merry little reality, and believe what you want to, i am all for that, but dont start trying to press your views of right and wrong, good and evil upon other people.
Shroomydan, your logic is completely flawed also.... let me show you...
a cow undergoes cell division and multiplication and is therefor alive.
A cow has unique cow DNA, and is therefor a cow.
Hamburgers destroy a unique cow. therefor, eating hamburgers is wrong!
and this is where you get PETA fundamentalists.
|
shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
|
|
Quote:
Destroying human life is wrong? who told you this? was it our government?
This is one of those things which I know without being told. If you don't know that it's wrong to kill people then you have a very serious problem.
Quote:
What about the people whose culture is ambivalent to murder, and show no remorse for such acts?
What culture? There is no such thing as a civilization which allows murder, of adults anyway. In ancient times infanticide was legal in some cultures, but we have evolved beyond that. Once again, if you think it's OK to kill people, then you have a very serious problem.
Quote:
Go along in your merry little reality, and believe what you want to, i am all for that, but dont start trying to press your views of right and wrong, good and evil upon other people.
If you haven't noticed, this is a public forum where we discuss philosophical and spiritual issues. If you can't handle a little bit of logic because it threatens your world view, then you may be in the wrong place. I am not oppressing you; if you don't like what I am saying then you have the option not to read my words. You can go on your merry little way believing what ever you want.
Quote:
Shroomydan, your logic is completely flawed also.... let me show you...
a cow undergoes cell division and multiplication and is therefor alive.
A cow has unique cow DNA, and is therefor a cow.
Hamburgers destroy a unique cow. therefor, eating hamburgers is wrong!
and this is where you get PETA fundamentalists.
No my friend, your logic is flawed. Destroying cow life does not equal destroying human life. I didn't say that destroying bovine life is wrong, I said destroying human life is wrong. If you are saying that there is no difference between cows and people, then once again you have a very serious problem.
|
shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
|
Re: abortion [Re: gnrm23]
#3728323 - 02/03/05 11:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
now, if "abortion" is technically the ending of a pregnancy (& a non-viable offspring) prior to full term (9 months)...
well...
most sex acts do not result in fertilization...
ok...
but IF "human life begins with "conception" (= gametal fusion = fertilization)
well, most fertilizations do not implant in uterine wall (or implant elswhere, bad news for mom)...
and many implants are sloughed off at the womans next period ("something" wasn't right - either with the genetic material itself, or with the "fallow field" of her endometrium...) or with the coming of her next menses (many "skipped periods" are in fact early "stillbirth" events...)
and even as the fetus is developing further along, women still can "lose the baby" (medical risks to mother: a medical abortion/pregnancy termination is about as risky to the woamn as is carrying the child to full term & delivering)
SO --- since most fertilizations do not result in live births, the world's number one "abortionist" is god himself...
so go picket jehovah's house instead of the doctor's clinic, mmmkay?
This is equivolent to saying that because some people get struck by lightning, then its Ok to shoot people in the head. Please. 
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
shroomydan said:
Quote:
Destroying human life is wrong? who told you this? was it our government?
This is one of those things which I know without being told. If you don't know that it's wrong to kill people then you have a very serious problem.
So no one told you killing was wrong? You just figured this out on your own, eh? No cultural conditioning involved whatsoever? HA!
Quote:
Quote:
What about the people whose culture is ambivalent to murder, and show no remorse for such acts?
What culture? There is no such thing as a civilization which allows murder, of adults anyway. In ancient times infanticide was legal in some cultures, but we have evolved beyond that. Once again, if you think it's OK to kill people, then you have a very serious problem.
I have no problem killing people in certain situations. If I caught a guy raping a woman, especially one who I'm close to, I'd have no problem putting a bullet in the back of his head. Just wondering, do you believe war is always wrong? How about self-defense?
Quote:
Quote:
Shroomydan, your logic is completely flawed also.... let me show you...
a cow undergoes cell division and multiplication and is therefor alive.
A cow has unique cow DNA, and is therefor a cow.
Hamburgers destroy a unique cow. therefor, eating hamburgers is wrong!
and this is where you get PETA fundamentalists.
No my friend, your logic is flawed. Destroying cow life does not equal destroying human life. I didn't say that destroying bovine life is wrong, I said destroying human life is wrong. If you are saying that there is no difference between cows and people, then once again you have a very serious problem.
Explain what differences between humans and cows make it ok to kill one but not the other.
--------------------
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
yeah, make way for the high and the mighty. On a purly cosmic level you are no more important than a cow. Along with this pro-life mentality comes this moral pretentiousness and this self-important notion that has been instilled in them. How can you say that one consciousness is more important than another consciousness? Im sure there are or will be other conscious beings that dwarf our intelligence and capability as we do cows. Dont get too self important on us now, your just an animal on a small rock.
And no cultures think that killing is ok? ever heard of fundamentalist muslims? cannibals? David Mcvey?
At one point in time someone had to say "OK, we are all goign to have to AGREE, not to kill each other, because it has gotten pretty hard trying to make this tribe grow..... so, no more killing, ok?".
If you seriously think that the first man, or whatever sub-human evolution product, was just enlightened to KNOWING that killing is wrong, then you have a serious problem.
Now, i know you mean no harm, but you need to really subject your worldview to some speculation. It is kind of hard, and takes some practice. It is easy to go around questioning everyones way of life, and their logic, but try looking at your own, point that gun at yourself and see what type of argument you can make with yourself.
|
JacquesSauniere
mr
Registered: 07/19/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
|
|
along with fundamentalist muslims, the izreali army
oh and ever heard of the crusades? or you just skipped history classes at school
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
Killing a man is wrong because he doesn't want to die.
There is no law or morality that commands you not to kill. It is simply wrong because the man doesn't want to be killed.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Killing a man is wrong because he doesn't want to die.
There is no law or morality that commands you not to kill. It is simply wrong because the man doesn't want to be killed.
Nor does any living thing. Frankly, I don't want to have to work for money, but that doesn't make work wrong.
--------------------
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
That is totally different.
You are working not because someone forces you, but because
you want to gains something from it. You work to get money. If you didn't want to have money and wanted to beg and live in a dumpster you could to that.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (02/04/05 10:08 AM)
|
gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
|
|
Quote:
shroomydan said:
This is equivolent to saying that because some people get struck by lightning, then its Ok to shoot people in the head. Please.
this is NOT "equivolent" to that...
please!
--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
|
Does the dumpster come furnished? I want one with carpeting.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Swami]
#3729750 - 02/04/05 10:35 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I don't know, I guess you could bring your own stuff
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
|
Re: abortion [Re: gnrm23]
#3729844 - 02/04/05 11:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
> SO --- since most fertilizations do not result in live births, the world's number one "abortionist" is god himself...
This is correct... though I would replace 'god' with 'mother nature', but regardless of terminology, the facts are correct... in humans, most fertilizations do not result in live births. The ratios are so bad that it is amazing that woman get pregnant at all.
> This is equivolent to saying that because some people get struck by lightning, then its Ok to shoot people in the head.
Once again we have changed the definition of whatever is growing inside the womans body and pushed it into the realm of a living person. It isn't that I think abortions should be legal or illegal, but I sure wish people would leave the terminology alone and change the laws rather than leaving the laws alone and trying to change the terminology instead.
--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.
|
Zekebomb
sociophagus
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Seuss]
#3730602 - 02/04/05 01:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
in humans, most fertilizations do not result in live births.
how in God's glorious name do they know that? isn't that like saying "there's a race of invisible, immaterial humanoid beings who live all around us, constantly right near us, but we'll never know it because they can't be seen or touched."
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Zekebomb]
#3731549 - 02/04/05 04:47 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
OK, lets say you were put in an airtight box for 30 minutes with another person in there... and there is only enough oxygen for one person to breathe for 30 minutes, but since there are two, the oxygen will run out in 15 minutes. Would you kill this other person? would you kill yourself? or would you just let both of you die?
Lets say this airtight box is your uterus, and the two people in it are twinsd growing inside of you. The doctor tells you , that to ensure the life of one child, you will have to choose to kill one, or have both of them die..... which do you choose? either way your choice has ended what you deem to be a life.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: abortion [Re: Zekebomb]
#3731661 - 02/04/05 05:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Zekebomb said:
in humans, most fertilizations do not result in live births.
how in God's glorious name do they know that? isn't that like saying "there's a race of invisible, immaterial humanoid beings who live all around us, constantly right near us, but we'll never know it because they can't be seen or touched."
It's called a miscarriage, and it's quite easily identifiable.
--------------------
|
Clark
Bar RoomSuperman
Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 179
|
|
This seems to be a moderately contentious issue.
Phew! I have to go grab some sleep now. Bringing blazing insight like that to this forum is exhausting work!
--------------------
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Clark]
#3733406 - 02/04/05 11:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
My girlfriend was pregnant a few months back. She was constantly sick, and it was not viable at all for us to have a child then (she was on the birth control shot thing but she still got pregnant). So we were going to have an abortion, despite how expensive it is to do it. Fortunately, she miscarried THREE little babies (no wonder her body just couldn't handle it). It certainly wasn't the most pleasant experience for her, well, not me, either (having to bury one's miscarried child because it wouldn't go down the toilet is sorta fucked up  ), but it saved us a lot of money, not having to abort, that is. 
If any of you do not find humor in the above anecdote, you are all bizarre people.
I wonder why we don't sit around and question the moral ramifications of cats eating their young...
 
Peace. 
--------------------
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
|
Zekebomb
sociophagus
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
|
|
when our cat has kittens, she tried to eat her first one... and we intervened. was that wrong? should we have left it up to the Fates whether that first of four kittens survived?
UPDATE: we kept two of the kittens, gave the other to good homes, and then moved. we left the mom cat with a friend for various complicated reasons. One month after we moved, one of our two cats was eaten by a cougar. The surviving one? you guessed it, she's the one we saved. Oh my God, it's so meaningful
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Zekebomb]
#3734403 - 02/05/05 06:37 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
A cat has no control over her behaviour, she has no duality, no complexity, she is what she is. A man is able to separate himself from himself. If a cat is hungry she will go and eat, it is impossible for a cat to be hungry and decide not to eat.
But a man can because he has distanced himself from his impulses.
That is why man is able to create morality which serves him and his brethren.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
Yeah, morality is an invention created so that society can function. Apes do it also. You also need to rephrase that second to last sentence.... Man has the ABILITY to distance himself from his impulses and instant gratification, but an overwhelming majority, have not. You still seem to think that you are above everything else because you are a human. I have seen this argument a lot. They think that the complexity of our relationships, thoughts and society is proof that we are in fact superior beings to all else on this earth or solar system. If anything, it seems to me that the cats, the deers, and every species other than man has got it figured out. They are stable on their own, work symbiotically with the earth and its surroundings, go with the ebb and flow of everything, and their world is only put into turmoil when humans come into the picture. We have become so "advanced" that we no longer need to struggle to live, or eat, or sleep. So with all this time on our hands, we sit around and debate crap like this, as if it really matters in the grand scheme of things.
|
Zekebomb
sociophagus
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
|
|
don't think it was hunger that impelled her to eat her own offspring... she didn't try to eat the other three. she seemed really confused and wacked-out
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Zekebomb]
#3735266 - 02/05/05 01:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I know it's not hunger. But it's still instincs. Animals like that can't do anything but follow urges and instincts. Cats brain is like a CPU, it does think and process, but there is nobody inside it to experience it all. A brain that doesn't know it thinks
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
Who is to say that everything you do isnt all just an urge or an instinct? maybe to you , a choice seems like one avenue of approach, but who is to say that all of your instincts and urges havent already chosen that for you? Maybe there is just the illusion of choice, and all your actions are predestined. I dont believe this however, but I was just trying to go with your logic on this one.
How did we get from the morality of abortion to the consciousness of cats anyway?
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
We are more complex than other beings on this planet.
Our abilities are far greater than those of any other organism here.
So are we superior? Well, that's subjective, depends on what isyour definition of superior. But we are the most advanced life forms here.
Cats do not live without cars because they chose not to having figured the meaning of life or something. They simply can't make them.
How do I know it's not instinct? Well there can't be two sets of oposite instincts in one animal. It makes no sense.
So one instinct tells you to have sex, and another one tells you
to live in celibacy. What kind of instinct would that be? What is its purpuse in nature?
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
Cats havent made cars because they have yet to "make up" a reason to make them...lol, and that to me is just as much of an advancement. I dont see how the construction of cars can be a justification of distancing ourselves from other animals.
And, i wish you would rephrase that last part, read it out loud, maybe it is just me, but I can make no sense of it.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
So you think that cats are as intelligent and aware as we are, and the only reason they don't have manufacture and society is because they don't need it?
the last part...
you say, what if our distance from our impulses is an impulse itself right? What if the fact that we control our instincts is an instict on its own, but we just think it's free will? That was your idea..
and I responded like this:
Celibacy is a voluntary abstinency from sex. Sex is an impulse imposed on us by nature. And in your theory, the will to not have sex must be some kind of instinct too because we have no free will.
And I say, why would there be an instinct that would make us choose
celibacy instead of sex when we actually want to have sex by nature?
What purpuse would this abstinency instinct serve in evolution?
Be basic idea in nature is to push violently your genes and fight so that the best man's genes at the end of the day get into a woman and spawn more of creatures like you.
Celibacy can not be an instinct because it against evolution
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
What if celibacy is an evolved instinct instilled in a few to gradually slow the amassing and density of mankind.I dont necessarily believe that, but you have to ask yourself that question if you are going to play with evolution. Also, just because we have the ability to destroy ourselves or go against evolving we are better than animals?
** I am just playing devils advocate here for a while, i enjoy this topic and while no ones mind will probably change from this it is still fun to argue the points. PLAY BALL!
|
Zekebomb
sociophagus
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
|
|
hey now, cats may not be as intelligent and sophisticated and conscious as humans, but they are somewhat intelligent and sophisticated and conscious. Moreso than a bird or a lizard or a fish, or moss, or a rock. Am I right? Cats are on Team Mammal, just like us. they are allies.
and don't b so quick to have such drastically different standards for value-judging the actions of cats and humans.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
Re: abortion [Re: Zekebomb]
#3739858 - 02/06/05 06:45 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Of course, they are indeed quite intelligent in the animal world, but to think they don't have technology just because they don't have the need is a bit silly.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
Instincts are universal for a species. If there were instincts
in just some beings for celibacy, these genes would die a long time ago because they couldn't be passed on to new generations.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
Well, a vow of celibacy doesnt always start at the beginning of someones life. I dont know if i have heard of anyone that was born celibate. Maybe they didnt have sex up until the vow and thus died not having passed their genetic material along. Most people, i am willing to bet, that have taken a vow of celibacy, have cheated on that vow.... take for instance how the succubus came along. These priests and nuns made up some demonic story about demons "raping" them in the night and how the devil made them enjoy it so much. Thousands of nuns were "sent away" to get abortions so as not to sully the name of christianity and catholocism. Seems that christians have a double standard....no, that couldnt be right....
Man has an urge to procreate, and sooner or later, 99% of those people will falter in their celibacy. Hell, i bet Mother Teresa even got bagged a couple of times in her days.
|
infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
|
 Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3741180 - 02/06/05 03:09 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I have a question for the pro-lifers.
I asked this in an earlier thread:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post2370693
but its worth repeating here:
someone throws two things at you -
a baby and a box containing a thousand embryos in test tubes.
which one do you catch?
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
Yes, but not all brake their vows. And it isn't because of some genetic mutation or something.
In the old days a "decent" human would not have sex untill marriage, and if he didn't get married he would not have sex. So you can say
that really serious religious people that ended up in celibacy never actually had sex.
And besides, your argument even further draws this issue away from the instinct concept, because now you have three instincts.
One is for sex, then the other one is against sex, and the third one
is the one that brakes the second one. now that's a mess, that's a big bess of contradicting instincts that would drive an animal crazy.
People simply act on information. If you give information to a human that he is going to live after his death and that he doesn't need
to enjoy this life, he will process this information and act on it.
This is not instinct. This is simple thinking.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
I am pro-life but those fetuses that I would try to save can't fit instide test tubes. I am against killing developed fetuses that can react and feel.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
You seriously think that if someone says they didnt do smoething, that means they didnt do something? I have known a good many cokeheads, past and present. Every single cokehead, i have ever met says, "man, coke, im glad i dont do that shit anymore" and 30 seconds later go blow an 8ball. Sure, it is a concept that we have created called decent, and on the surface we attempt to adhere to that, but deep down, there isnt much that can stop us from mating and havign a good time.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
So are you saying that every man in history of people (30 billion people so far) had sex if he was physically capable?
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
PinkFloydRocks
Stranger
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 26
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
|
|
In my opinion it is better for a fetus to be killed before it can feel or think than it is to have it and put it up for adoption where it will probably never get adopted and live its life moving from foster home to foster home. We already have to many people in the foster systems to deal with. finally, Teenage girls are going to have abortions whether their legal or not to keep their parents from finding out. I think it is best to be done safely.
--------------------
"A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do." -Bob Dylan
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted."
-John Lennon
"I am not only a pacifist but a militant pacifist. I am willing to fight for peace. Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war."
-Albert Einstein
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
So are you saying that every man in history of people (30 billion people so far) had sex if he was physically capable?
um... yeah. Now maybe not with another human being, but sometimes goats start to look good....lol. Im sure there are a handful, maybe 10-20 people in the 30 billion that have been able to have sex, but refrained their entire life.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
That is higly unlikely. I can name you one for starters. It's my uncle. I mean what are the chances that he is one of those 30 you are speaking of in 30 billion.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
So, you can honestly without flinching in the least, say that your uncle has never put his penis in anything resembling a vagina? Have you been with him everywhere he went? I can tell you that i have never had sex (which isnt true), but does that make it so? Why would your uncle tell you about his sex life or lack of anyway? even if he is a priest, doesnt mean he cant lie to save face.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
|
My sister lived with him in his childhood, and she can testify that he never had a girlfriend. then when she left home, he was living with his mother, he didn't have any female friends, much less a girlfriend. Now she has died, and he does not talk with humans and lives alone in his dirty apartment, and lives on social wellfare.
And he is an old man right now.
I am as sure that he never had sex as I would be sure that by cat has never been in America. Now, both could be true, but it is pointless to consider it.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
1 2 3 4 5 all )
johnm214
fireworks_god
OrgoneConclusion
wyldeman007
Freedom
Swami
Ped
Basilides