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 OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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 Re: abortion  [Re: blaze2]
#3717962 - 02/02/05 05:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Abortion Is not womans intimacy, it is a public issue because the baby or fetus is not possesion of the mother. It is a free individual.
The abilities of the fetus have nothing to do with it being a person or not. There are grown people that have no motoric functions and are just sitting there vegetating, yet they are considered persons. We feed them, they have rights and we give them shelter. We don't kill them
because they are expensive to take care of. Parents do not own their children or fetuses.
I'm not implying any morality here or saying we should do this or do that. I'm just pointing out the status of the fetus in the society.
If we chose to kill it, let it be, but we must be aware of what is it that we are killing and make sure we don't have double standards.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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> Parents do not own their children or fetuses.
Until born, a fetus is a parasite living off of a host.
> I'm just pointing out the status of the fetus in the society.
If it were this easy, there would be no debate over abortion.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Woland
The MercilessWarrior
Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 217
Loc: FL
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: abortion [Re: NiamhNyx]
#3718175 - 02/02/05 08:11 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
"Having an abortion is clearly an intensely complicated and emotionally driven issue. It's not easy and it's not black and white."
heard that. I can't hardly think of a more emotional topic with more grey areas, except maybe suicide. 
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blaze2
The Witness
Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: abortion [Re: Woland]
#3718558 - 02/02/05 10:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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"The abilities of the fetus have nothing to do with it being a person or not. There are grown people that have no motoric functions and are just sitting there vegetating, yet they are considered persons. We feed them, they have rights and we give them shelter. We don't kill them"
I have no qaulms with with familys who want to euthanize a "vegtable" or "empty shell". These people dont even know they exist, and if they do what life is that really? who would want to live like that? Now on the other hand you have the people with illnessess, like ALS or MS etc, that in latter stages paralazation occurs, with severe pain, and other incomprehensible things. I think those people should have the right ot assisted suicide. It should be THEIR choice tho not a family members, and they should make the choice when it is clear that they are still concious of themselves, so there can be no doubt that it is their wish.
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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein
"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: abortion [Re: blaze2]
#3719589 - 02/02/05 02:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I never said anything for or against abortion. I'm just saying we need to equalise the fetus in our minds to a vegetable-person sitting in the chair.
Only the fetus has the potential to be a human being.
And now I am saying something against abortion:
There is no substitue for life. Life of a slave, life of a tortured man, hungry man, is still life, and no matter how hard it may be for some there is always potential for happyness. Materialism is a passing fassion, not an eternal value, yet we think the child should not be born into a poor family because the lack of material possesions would make it and the family suffer. But that child could be born to be someone that doesn't care if he is poor or rich or hungry of fatt and fed, or could be the next messiah, someone like Marthin Luther King, or Timothy Leary that could push our civilisation one step further.
Man, the eternal slave of its wishes, desires and emotions and logic. Will he ever find peace that way? I doubt it.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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I still see this matter coming down to trying villify death. It seems that in some societies, and mainly america, we have been conditioned to think that death is a bad thing, and end to something. This is just one idea on death, which is something we have absolutely 0% knowledge on.
"If you are so pro-life, don't blick Med-clinics, lock arms, and block cemetaries" -Bill Hicks
I feel that one day, and that day is coming quick, that we will be forced to add to the Bill of rights or make a Law which legally determines down to the second in which a sperm+egg becomes a human being. More laws that dictate the "right to life" or how we are somewhat "forced" to remain living will only dampen the vitality and happiness of those who enjoy life. It is illegal in America right now, to commit suicide. I find this one of the most hilarious things ever! that a group of people got together, and voted on whether or not I have the ability to choose if i want to live or not... Do you see where more legislation and this pro-life thinking can lead to? much much more of this behaviour.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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wow, i should have done some spell checking on that one, i blame the cigarette in my hand for that though... sorry
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TheShroomHermit
Divine Hermit of the Everything
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 7,575
Loc: border of Canada and Mexi...
Last seen: 9 months, 29 days
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3720678 - 02/02/05 07:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Pro-choice, the women has the ultimate decision but the man involved also needs to figure out whether or not he wants to be a father. In my opinion, it's just as bad telling a women she can't choose to have an abortion as it is telling a man that he can't choose whether of not he wants to raise it. A person who resents having a child may not take care of it well.
Also, for those of you painting the picture that you should have the child anyways and give it up for adoption, consider how complex these kids grow up to be. Why didn't my parents want me? Who were they? Am I not good enough? etc. I also heard someone comment that there are plenty of good people out there who will scoop up these unwanted kids, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH!
Also, to those who think that abortion is murder... it's not. There is clearly a difference between cracking an egg for your breakfast and going out to the backyard with and axe and cutting off a chickens head. This developing clump of cells is alive, it plays a parasitic role on it's host. If anyone could make the choice, it would be the woman... not you, or your freinds, or your church. And certainly not the fetus. Bottom line, murdering a child before it is born is like popping a balloon before it has air in it.
When the adverse effects of overpopulation become more apparent, abortion may become a necessary and enforced practise. Or, we will have a great war to kill off the surplus... which is a contradiction the pro-lifers refuse to examine.
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JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland 
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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hello, your name is life on earth
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"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
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 shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3721779 - 02/02/05 09:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is very simple for me.
A fetus is undergoing cell division and multiplication and is therefore alive.
The fetus has unique human DNA, and is therefore human.
Abortion destroys a unique human life. Destroying human life is wrong.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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So if a sperm has unique DNA, would you consider flushing them down the toilet a destruction of human life?
Odd at the double standards people use anyway, they feel bad about a reflexive fetus in the womb being flushed out, but when they eat the constant meat of animals that have been raised in small cages their whole lives and then brutally slaughtered, they say that's life. I could see PETA being able to be completely anti-abortion without being hypocrites, but a regular meat-lover? They obviously don't care about life, and I'm willing to bet that seeing animals screaming as their throats get slit in front of them would sicken them more than an ultrasound video of a fetus.
Not that I'm a vegetarian, but I'm also not against the death of a fetus if a woman chooses it.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: abortion [Re: Ravus]
#3722011 - 02/02/05 10:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
So if a sperm has unique DNA, would you consider flushing them down the toilet a destruction of human life?
Maybe my simplicity was too complex for you ravus.
Let us review.
A fetus is undergoing cell division and multiplication and is therefore alive.
A sperm cell does not undergo cell division and reproduction.
A fetus has unique human DNA, and is therefore human.
A sperm cell does not have unique human DNA. It only carries half of the DNA required to produce a unique human.
So to answer your question. No; flushing sperm down the toilet is not the destruction of human life.
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MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
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I agree Shroomydan. But can you justify making this decision for another human being? I sure can't. I am pro-choice because I will never tell another human being what to do with their own body. I don't agree with abortion. But it's not my choice to make for others.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
No; flushing sperm down the toilet is not the destruction of human life.
I just wanted you to say it.
I'm glad that's the case, because otherwise I couldn't sleep at night knowing I had let quite a few girls swallow my children! 
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: abortion [Re: MOTH]
#3722329 - 02/02/05 10:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am pro-choice because I will never tell another human being what to do with their own body.
A preborn baby is not the body of the mother; it is a unique human life. As such I believe it deserves equal protection under the law. I am pro-choice too, but I don't think freedom of choice should give anybody the legal right to kill anybody else. We don't allow parents to kill there children after they are born, so why before? It seems to me that all the arguments for abortion could easily be used to justify infanticide.
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barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3722589 - 02/02/05 11:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think woman should be able to decide if they want to have the child or not and it shouldn't be any other way. I don't like to see potential life thrown away like that though because who knows what amazing things that child may accomplish later in life. All the people you look up to and respect might not even had existed like Leary and Mckenna, etc. and seeing the things those people do makes me think any child has the utmost potential to do something great for man kind. But who knows maybe that childs energy is just passed onto another if they are killed in the womb.
touchie subject i guess but the bottom line is woman should be allowed to make their own decision about a child in their womb, death or life.
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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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PsiloSimon
amateurmycologist
Registered: 02/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: the universe
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
#3723530 - 02/03/05 04:51 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm glad that we have the choice to legally have an abortion, otherwise a lot people would still be trying to do it themselves.
I believe that a fetus is nothing more than a potential individual.
This rule applies to everything:
If you try to make something that is natural illegal, you will have corruption.
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IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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I guess since abortions would be done this way or that way be it legal or not, all we can do by making it illegal is punish people and not prevent it. And we don't need more punishment in this society.
The woman will have a ghost of a dead child (motephircally) behind her and a really bad memory, at least in her subconsciousness. It would be cruel to punish her wil jail.
But the event of abortion is something we should cry over, and not feel relieved when it's done. Every life is a miracle.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Quote:
This is very simple for me.
A fetus is undergoing cell division and multiplication and is therefore alive.
The fetus has unique human DNA, and is therefore human.
Abortion destroys a unique human life. Destroying human life is wrong.
I agree with almost everything you said. What bothers me is when pro-lifers try to change the definitions used to expand existing laws into new areas. "Lets all pretend that a fetus is a baby, and since it is illegal to murder a baby, it is illegal to have an abortion." To me, this is very wrong. If we want to outlaw abortion, then make murding a fetus illegal, don't try and change the definitions of the word.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Quote:
We don't allow parents to kill there children after they are born, so why before?
because the fetus is not a child, it is a fetus.
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