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OfflineJCoke
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abortion
    #3713393 - 02/01/05 02:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

what you all feel about it?


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
    #3713414 - 02/01/05 02:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ambivalent.


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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: abortion [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3713433 - 02/01/05 02:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I used to be totally pro-choice let-people-do-what-they-want, but I feel now that the greater responsibility is in birth control. Do it right or don't have sex. If you get pregnant and don't want it, tough. Put them up for adoption. There are alot of loving people out there who will give the child a better home than a cooler filled with ice.

Let the child live. Life can be shitty sometimes but it's wildly interesting sometimes too. Just think if you were aborted.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
    #3713500 - 02/01/05 02:42 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Should be legal, but should be rare.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: abortion [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3713818 - 02/01/05 04:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

its the same as conceiving, whether you chose to abort, and/or whether you chose to conceive, it got same moral 'issues'?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: abortion [Re: Gomp]
    #3713927 - 02/01/05 04:50 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If you don't like abortion don't have one. But for the rest of us, I'm tired of people arguing on what women should or should not do with thier own bodies. Whether or not abortion is legal, women will do it. If it's illegal we'll set up safe, supportive underground clinics. That needs to happen anyways, especially in coutries where they are expensive even when legal.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: abortion [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3713940 - 02/01/05 04:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree, but it should still be an absolute last resort. My wife and I considered an abortion before the birth of our third child because we did not have the money to raise it, we thought. My wife decided against it at the very last moment, in the clinic moments before the procedure, and we now we have a beautiful, highly intelligent, well behaved teenage daughter. We found the money and it worked out. We knew that life was sacred and that there was no compelling medical issue involved...just money. Abortion is the right of the individual, but it is still the taking of life and must be carefully considered like the taking of all life.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: abortion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3713999 - 02/01/05 05:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Fair enough Hue, the point here is that it needs to be an option, and the option of the woman involved. Having an abortion is clearly an intensely complicated and emotionally driven issue. It's not easy and it's not black and white. The point is the only person qualified to make the choice is the person who is prenant, and no one has any right to interfere in her decision or to be anything other than supportive of her needs.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: abortion [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3714152 - 02/01/05 06:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Is it immoral that billions of my highly-prized genetic material (sperm) has gone to waste dashed on the rocks of infertility, condoms and Saran Wrap?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: abortion [Re: Swami]
    #3714381 - 02/01/05 06:48 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

is there a defrence from billions of your sperm from say, an adult?

is there a defrence from billions of your sperm from say, a child?

is there a defrence from billions of your sperm from say, new born baby?

is there a defrence from billions of your sperm from say, a fetus?

I think the point is, where would you draw the line? and should you have the same "line" for others to follow? I think we all like to blow are load, and we do it guilt free, but does doing something guilt free make it ok? killing someone in a war, they do it guiltlessly, does that make it ok?


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
    #3714435 - 02/01/05 06:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well yeah but sperm arent in the process of becoming a human. They are just sperm. If the sperm is already in the egg then it's a different story.


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Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
    #3714465 - 02/01/05 07:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"What do ya say we lighten things up and talk about abortion.." -Bill Hicks

I got some points that need to be made about this...

In conjunction with the slight belief in the 49th day theory, I would go as far to say that a fetus is a conscious being, to some degree, and if there were to be made a line to draw between the killing of a lump of cells and a life, I would draw it there... legally. However I have no problem with death. Death is just as important as life in the grand scheme of things. People equate the word death to thoughts of darkness, evil, non-existence and such, while I dont think that death is really any of those things....
I find it much more selfish to bring a child into this world with a family that doesnt want it, and feels necessary to struggle to care for it. If given the choice of being aborted, or living a miserable life by some immature single mother, going from dad to dad.
Furthermore, it is kind of ridiculous to think that you can take life from something that has yet to really experience life. Lets say that even if a soul or whatever is created or entered the second a sperm collides with an egg, it still has yet to really become a human being. IMHO, death is a part of life, it is a cycle, and it NEEDS to happen, and to me it doesnt matter if that is a marine on the battlefield, someone getting murdered, someone dying from a stroke at the age of 106 or a fetus being dismembered; AND why is there so much emphasis and focus on fetus death? seems that once you are born you are off the list, screw you , have a nice life or dont, we dont seem to care now that you have escaped the placenta. It is as important to have compassion for all life as it is to have compassion for all death.


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
    #3715301 - 02/01/05 09:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

a product of our throw-away, convienence driven society.

people (and i definetly am not pointing fingers at just women, a hell of a lot of men tuck tail and run when they find out theyve knocked a girl up) dont want the responsibility of childrearing but are incapable of treating the act of sex itself as a HUGE responsibility.

its really sad that with all the sex education info out there combined w/ all the products that nearly guaranty pregnancy-free sex that abortion is still a prevalent topic in America.

that being said, IMO it should be legal while in the first trimester...it provides a safe alternative to the back alley coat-hanger abortion.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
    #3715336 - 02/01/05 09:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm all for it if it helps to reduce the population for future generations. I think people should try to go with birth control to begin with, but since that's never 100%, abortion always needs to be an option.

As long as the fetus is like a cancer growing inside the mother, it is the mother's decision I believe. After that cancer crawls out and joins the world he gets human rights, and there the line should be drawn.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: abortion [Re: MrBump]
    #3715506 - 02/01/05 09:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thecornking said:
that being said, IMO it should be legal while in the first trimester...it provides a safe alternative to the back alley coat-hanger abortion.




I agree here.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: abortion [Re: Ravus]
    #3715518 - 02/01/05 09:51 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"After that cancer crawls out and joins the world he gets human rights, and there the line should be drawn."

I don't know about that. I think abortion should be legal through the seventeenth year...it helps to keep those fetus' in line. My 3 fetus' are doing pretty good so they might make it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: abortion [Re: Ravus]
    #3715534 - 02/01/05 09:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
As long as the fetus is like a cancer growing inside the mother, it is the mother's decision I believe. After that cancer crawls out and joins the world he gets human rights, and there the line should be drawn.




i'm sorry, I can't never look at a fetus and think of it as cancer.

I don't recall the name of the movie, but in it, it shows a real abortion, the fetus fights hard to avoid a sharp object coming towards it, and than the object hits it in it's chest, the fetus opens it's mouth wide, a silent scream.

fetus's are alive just like you and me.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
    #3716164 - 02/01/05 11:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You could argue that by birthing a child, the mother is giving them a right to life. However, if the child is unwanted and is conceived accidentally, the mother never gave that child the right to life, it just happened and the mother can do as she so pleases because she is the one that determines who she will give life to.

Either way I agree with thecornking and the first trimester idea.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: abortion [Re: JCoke]
    #3717128 - 02/02/05 02:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

From a moral standpoint, I'm against it in most cases, though I have fewer reservations about it if done during the first trimester. Politically, however, I think it would be better to keep it legal so it can be performed by trained doctors rather than amateurs with coat hangers.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: abortion [Re: Silversoul]
    #3717302 - 02/02/05 03:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

first trimester for sure its fine, you have to realize that even tho it looks like a baby and has the potential to become a normal everyday person, in the first trimester it has little or no brain. Its about as smart as my iguana, adn thats not very smart. Its certainly not conscious of itself as babys dont even attaint that until the 4th or 5th year of life. In addition it should never be illegal for the victims of rape, and incest, or if it endangers the mothers life at all, or in the rare cases of severe birth defects, such as when the brain and spinal cord form outside the body in some fetus. Would you want to be born like that? I hope not. Might as well end it as soon as possible.

All that said it should be rare, and birthcontrol should be first. In texas you dont even have to find someone to adopt a baby you can leave the baby at a firestation, or hospital without fear of being prosecuted. Its called the baby moses law, and here in San Antonio its been used a few times. I think its a good option.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

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