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Offlinenestafy
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Last seen: 22 years, 1 month
WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics*
    #369888 - 08/10/01 05:20 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Alright.. you may remember the 1st flush of this batch of shrooms, but holy shit! WTF happened?

my digi cam arrived on the scene today [ olympus d-510 Zoom ], and I managed to get the usb hookup working under linux.. so i can bring these pictures to you..

anyway, I'll post the overview pic..
then individual ones which I have questions on.

As far as the setup.

Thai Koh Samui in a DB 15 GAL Kit.. grown outdoors in the permanent shade. of SW Florida. was moved inside during the 2nd flush pinning for < 24 hrs, then moved back outside. ..

I posted my 1st flush pics & questions, which I though were nice, entitled:
Biggest Fucking Flush! Praises!

Anyway, after that flush.. I kinda toyed around..

I took a fork and scraped the surface.. then in a few areas, poked some small holes. Was this a good idea? The shrooms from my 1st flush dropped their spores all over the place, leaving a dark carpet over my growing surface. Then I moved the kit into darkness for 2 days before giving it light again. .. also there is @ 1/2" -> 3/4" space inbetween the sides of the container & the DB compost [ which formed by itself ] .. and shrooms are piling up crazy in there.

here are the pics





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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #369890 - 08/10/01 05:23 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)





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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #369891 - 08/10/01 05:25 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Question 1: What is up with the split caps / veil ?





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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #369896 - 08/10/01 05:28 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Question 2: Are those adhorts and Why do they Form?




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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #369898 - 08/10/01 05:30 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Question 3: Why are my shrooms growing as if they're trippin on themselves?





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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #369899 - 08/10/01 05:34 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Question 4: What should I do with these fat asses? How do I know if they're mature? What should I do with the other mushrooms growing down even further beneath the top?

Question 5: What happened to that little black mushroom off to the mid-top right side? Is it edible?





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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #369901 - 08/10/01 05:38 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Alright... hope those pictures help you guys figure out whats going on..
any comments are appreciated. Is it all that bad?
heh
anyway.. here is a summary of my questions:

Question 1: What is up with the split caps / veil ?
Question 2: Are those adhorts and Why do they Form?
Question 3: Why are my shrooms growing as if they're trippin on themselves?

Question 4: What should I do with these fat asses? How do I know if they're mature? What should I do with the other mushrooms growing down even further
beneath the top?

Question 5: What happened to that little black mushroom off to the mid-top right side? Is it edible?

Thanks guyz!
nesta




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InvisibleThorA
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #369913 - 08/10/01 06:04 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

1. Split caps usually are a sign of lack of moisture/humidity.
2. Aborts occur because not all shrooms grow up :smile: You'll notice them because they stop growing and start turning black. Pick them before they go black and you'll be safe.
3. Not too sure, it looks strange alright, maybe something to do with a moisture problem.
4. Pick the fat asses when the veil starts to break. The ones growing under the substrate should be picked, try to be carefull in not messing up the casing too much when you pick those out.
5. I'm guessing its an abort thats turning black.. Pick it out, its probably still edible, I can't see the pic your referring to.

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InvisibleMcMan
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: Thor]
    #369924 - 08/10/01 06:31 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)



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Invisibleisis
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: Thor]
    #369925 - 08/10/01 06:32 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with Thor. The mushies are probably growing best where there is more moisture and that would be on the sides.The only problem that I have with using this compost without a casing layer is the damage it does to your cropping surface when you harvest your mushrooms.I picked my flush of ecuadors, and even though I was very careful, it still put a hurting on the cropping surface.I seems to be growing back a bit and it's only been 24hrs so that is good. I do know that Koh Samui can look quite different from flush to flush.My first flush of KS grew small fat mushrooms. The second grew more like yourfirst ,but smaller. Good luck.



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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: Thor]
    #369962 - 08/10/01 10:06 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Thor->
Thanks for the tips. That "black shroom" I'm talking about is in the Question 4 picture [ the fat asses growing against the side ] .. on the right hand side .. it is REALLY SMALL. edible though? heh..

anyway.. who knows what I screwed up.. but I felt like I manhandled these mofos after the 1st flush.

Nesta




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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #369966 - 08/10/01 10:15 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

McMan:
Hey I really appreciate your response. You made a lot of sense about the evaporation rate.. although there is plenty of humidity in the air.. SW FL ( this thing is outside.. in the shade) the rate is evaporation rate is probably pretty high due to the 80 + degree weather, also.. I put this thing in the direct sunlight for @ 3 hours [ 3pm-6pm ] to try to get the caps going up.
Also.. this grain did kind of colonize slowly [ spawn bag ] .. one bag actually developed maggots or worms in it.. and I used 2 of them to colonize the 15lbs of compost. They actaully needed a 2nd dose of spore water to get them going.. after 2 weeks, I had no growth.. so I re-injected.. went on a @ 3 week vacation to the grand canyon.. and then came back & was amazed that they were colonized!

The mycelia colonized the DB compost w/ STRONG rhizomorphic characteristics.. but the spawn bag [ although i only saw it when finished ] was a more fluffy, bright white .

I need to transfer your knowledge into stone man ;) ... thanks for the pointers!




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InvisibleMcMan
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: nestafy]
    #369989 - 08/10/01 11:52 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)



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Invisibleisis
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #369996 - 08/11/01 12:19 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the post McMan. Great info for us that do multi-spore innoculations.



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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #370160 - 08/11/01 11:10 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

McMan:
Man.. very logical statement.. had I the experience, I may have stumbled across figuring that out. The only problem I guess is instructions. You see, the 15lb kit comes with 4 spawn bags w/ filter patches, full of pre-sterilized rye-berries. I was going to do 2 batches of diff shrooms, so I innoculated 2 bags w/ PESA, 2 w/ TKS. Well.. they colonized.. and then I cut them open.. crumbled thoroughly & mixed w/ the DB compost... which colonized. And those are the instructions Ryche gives out. So, what I gather from you.. The 2 spawn bags contain a different mycelia.. one which is more dominant than the other. When they are mixed in the compost.. They colonate their prospective areas.. The weaker mycelia probably colonizes less space due to its slow growth, but all-in-all takes up space to begin with & most likely will not fruit, or have a weak one in that. The stronger mycelia could have used this space to spread into & fruit. Is that correct?
IF SO, now I need to devise a plan on a different spawn process.. and the spawn bags are certainly not choice, because how am I going to inject grain through a tiny hole, and feel that if I open them... contams will find their way in there.

Nesta




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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #370620 - 08/12/01 12:07 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

McMan:
Also.. what is the prefered substrate & method for your "master spawn -> f2 spawn" process... is a pressure cooker needed?

Thanks!
nesta




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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #381637 - 08/29/01 05:51 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Most everyting McMan is saying here is correct and outlined very well in Stamets TMC and GGMM .
Using master spawn from a pure strain isolation, or from the dominant strain from a multi spore inoculation, will certainly aid in optimal results and somewhat better flushes then if only using multi-spore inoculation.

But this also requires more work and more equiptment, which most ppl do not have. Its also more suited to other species then cubensis.
-Clyde- and I rarely use pure strain isolation ourselves any more since the results really were not worth all the xtra effort to us and we have to test everything from multi-spore inoculation anyway. The spores we sell you are the exact same sproes we use so everything has to be tested.


A couple of thoughts is that one, we are not gearing these kits for people to start making master spawn. Most people that are buying the kits are not interested in buying all this extra equiptment and sterilizing their own grain etc..... and using these advanced techniques.

Also we do not promote pure strain isolation or master spawn because it is NOT necessary for cubensis.
Most of this has been written for harder to grow species, the edible and medicinal mushroom mushrooms.
As you can see from all the kick ass pics we post, 90% of those are from multi spore inoculation.
Cubensis is the most forgiving species of mushroom on this earth probably. Its by far the easiest mushroom to grow of substantial value.

Only 1 bag of colonized grain is needed to spawn these DB kits. One bag is all we use most of the time. And yes, we recommend you use the best bag of grain. Which ever one has colonized the fastest and had nice healthy looking mycelium, ie. rhizomorphic growth, then that is the one to use. Yet in our instructions, we recommend you use all the bags of colonized spawn. The additional spawn will act as more substrate, additional nutriants for the dominant strain. When we use more then one bag, we usually see about a 10-20% increase in mushroom production. Usually what happens is the 2nd through 4th flushes tend to produce more mushrooms.
Many times in the latter stages of fruiting, when we harvest them they will be attached to clumps of grain from using the additional grain spawn. The instructions the DB kit is Version 1 and I need to spend some time updated it with more detailed questions I have received since we started this.

-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 08/29/01 06:55 PM.

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 08/29/01 07:24 PM.

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 08/29/01 07:34 PM.

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 08/30/01 04:07 PM.

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 09/09/01 11:22 AM.



--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #381676 - 08/29/01 06:40 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Nestafy...thanks for posting those pics... glad to hear the kit finally worked out for you. Were seeing about a 95% success rate among our customers.. nothing is perfect :smile: I thought you were going to fall into that 5% but you stuck with it and look at the results  :smile:

If you or anyone is really interested in master spawn, pick up a copy of Stamets "The Mushroom Cultivator" he describes this process in detail. But seriously, its not needed for cubensis. As you can see we grow in bulk and we dont use this method. Not to say it wrong,... it is correct, just not needed for cubensis.


-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #381692 - 08/29/01 07:12 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

McMan... you have made some statements here that I really disagree with, along with many that are technically correct.

And dont anyone get this wrong.. this is not a pissing contest.

Ok.. McMan... you stated
This is very important.... mixing two different grain spawns together will not produce results as expected. Only
one of the strains from the grain spawn will colonize and go onto producing fruits. Even if you use the same
syringe or inoculum for both batches of grain, they will each end up with a different germ pore match than the
other and that means that they will be two independent strains that will no longer work toegether as one.

end quote

Ok..I'm going to do some rambling here......dont take all this as quotes from Mcman.

Both strains will colonize. Eventually, yes, the dominant strain will fruit. But the mycelium will still work together to utilize the nutriants. Both strains do go on to colonize....eventually the stronger dominates.. the weaker of the 2 does not just die off or not grow. There could be 6 of them growing together and the other 3 will not just die off. The mycelium will work together in their network. The weaker will send information to the dominant.. it will send nutriants more then anything. It will help abosrb water. The weaker has already used space and nutriants. It does not just go away.... they work together.
Mycelium is smart.... Stamets continually stressed this at the Telluride conference this year.
And not just from Stamets expressing this, I've seen it myself over many of many flushes. The whole mycelium network combines to work as one and help ensure survival... fruits..thus spores.

Uuumm.... ok.. next question. McMan... where are you getting this term, germ pore matching as in the contents you are using it.

A germ pore is the dimple on the end of a spore. It has nothing to do with sexing..its merely the end where the life creation starts. Its similiar to the dimple on the end of a marijuana seed, its the end where the root grows from.



-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 08/29/01 08:33 PM.

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 08/30/01 04:11 PM.



--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #381697 - 08/29/01 07:24 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Ok....this is the big statement I have a real problem with. Most everything else is technically correct.

If you spread a syringe out to 6 jars you should get one real good match out of the bunch
and that is the one that you want to keep as a grain spawn master. A good percentage of
the weaker matches or jars will most likely never even make it to the fruiting stage, no
matter how hard you try!! For that reason, you can toss the rest of the weaker matches or
jars and prepare more fresh ones to spawn with the master jar. A tbl spoon of colonized
grain from the master will spawn a full jar of fresh prepared grain and be fully run by the 7th
day easy.

end quote

This is so wrong. In fact is absolute bullshit and for a man of your intelligence I'm shocked you even posted this. Look at all the cake growers for years and years. They inocualte 12 jars from a single syringes. Usually a good 11 out of 12 colonized and fruit. A few faster then others. But most all of them colonize and fruit.
HOw many of us here have inoculated 6 jars from a syringe and only seen 1 fruit. 1 out of 6 ?????

So ok.... lets mix them in a casing. The mycelium all works together to colonize and fruit. Thus what I talked about above.

I hope I did not come off to strong here, because I have learned to respect McMan as a valuable part of our community in many way. But some of this information is wrong.




-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 08/29/01 08:29 PM.



--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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Invisibleisis
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #381709 - 08/29/01 07:43 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

McMan,I understand what you are saying,but I used multispore innoculations with my DB project.I used three different bags of rye berries and got killer flushes. I understand isolating the strain and the benefits there off,but my ecuadors couldn't have given me better flushes( IMO ).I'm speaking solely on their ability to fruit. They went mad fruiting.
So,I don't think in this particular project a pure strain would have yielded better results.The thought of a pure strain yielding better results in this case would be so freaking impressive.I'm not saying that it couldn't happen.I'm just saying I was impressed with how my ecuador multispore innoculation fruited.



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Offlinenestafy
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: isis]
    #381737 - 08/29/01 08:28 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

would it make sense for me to do a multi-spore spawn inocculation, and then a master spawn innoculation next to it & photograph the results + stages?

man.. I've been gone for awhile




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Invisibleisis
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: nestafy]
    #381749 - 08/29/01 08:44 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I think it depends on the strain.Like with KS maybe that would be useful.If you want, you can isolate the strain you like and see if you get consistant results. I've done both,but not side by side.I'm pleased enough with the results of multispore innoculations that I don't find it neccessary.It's certainly fun to work with agar and create master spawns,but I don't think it will create a great benefit for me. Multispore is so convinient.
But go for it.It's fun and you'll learn so much from it. If you are interested in learning more,it's a great way to go.You can't go wrong by gaining knowledge.



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InvisibleMcMan
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: isis]
    #382276 - 08/30/01 05:34 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)



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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #389283 - 09/09/01 10:16 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Yes you have stimulted some thought. But you have also stimulated some very confusing thought.
I just read what you wrote on your site as per link above. It basically says the same thing you posted above.
And its still wrong :smile:

There is no such thing as "germ pore matching". In all the books of mushroom cultivation I have read over the years I have never come across this phrase. A "germ pore" is nothing more then a word used to describe the dimple on the end of the spore. I refer you to P. Stamets Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms (3rd edition). page 67 & 68. There is even a picture of a germ pore, the dimple. So where are you getting this phrase ? What book? I would like to read this. You have extensivly used this phrase here and on your website.


I think, the term your trying to create here, your actually referring to something from the mating of compatible hyphae, creating kikaryotic mycelium.

This one paragraph and school of thought you are projecting here McMan is really bothering me because its just not true.
You state
Ok.. McMan... you stated
                  This is very important.... mixing two different grain spawns together will not produce results
                  as expected. Only
                  one of the strains from the grain spawn will colonize and go onto producing fruits. Even if
                  you use the same
                  syringe or inoculum for both batches of grain, they will each end up with a different germ
                  pore match than the
                  other and that means that they will be two independent strains that will no longer work
                  toegether as one.

There is so much to this subject I could go on and on. I think anyone interested in this should read Chapter 9, The Mushroom Life Cycle, in Stamets MMGG.

As stated above, how many people only see 1 out of 7 jars go on to fruit?
Long before we started using compost, we used multi-spore inoculation of grain for years.
Usually they all colonize very evenly, only a few would be a few days lagging, and perhaps one out of 20 would not colonize at all. Regardless, putting all the colonized cakes whole in a casing was used. They all colonize together, creating a mycelium network, and work together to fruit together. The mycelium works toghether. And after just re-reading Chapter 9, its not only the dominant strain that fruits. Not only are they working together, but the non-dominat strains create their own niche's in the domain and fruit as well. And along the way they exchange genetic material.
Its all outlined in Chapter 9.

McMan, if what you were saying was true, flushes like this could never have been produced.



Not the front trays, those are 2nd flush.

The back trays. We use to grow like this. These are all 1/2 pint cakes of birdseed, started from multi-spore inoculation, and all the cakes layed whole next to each other to fill up the tray. About 30 1/2 pint cakes.

As you can see, more then 80% of the surface area fruited. All of this mycelium worked together from every colonized grain jar to produce fruits. If what you were saying were true, only 1 out of 30 of these jars went on to fruit. Its just not true. There is probably a good 3 or 4 strains in here fruiting to ensure survival, and all of them worked together to exchange information, nutriants etc... to fruit.

I dont know what more to say except I think you leading people into the wrong direction of thought.
Especially with cubensis, all these elaborate techniques are not needed. Multi-spore inoculation produces tremendous results.






-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores
www.thehawkseye.com/dbkits.html
Dung Brothers Premium Mushroom Compost Kits

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 09/09/01 11:21 AM.

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 09/09/01 11:32 AM.

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 09/09/01 11:52 AM.

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 09/09/01 12:01 PM.



--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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InvisibleMy Third Eye
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #389289 - 09/09/01 10:26 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

what he was getting across was still pretty understandable even if he didnt use the correct terms..

The light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so
We cannot see to reach an end crippling our communication


--------------------
suddenly a flaming stealth banana split the sky
like one would hope but never really expect
to see in a place like this.
Cutting right angle donuts on a dime
and stopping right at my Birkenstocks,
and me yelping...Holy fucking shit!


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OfflineMycoGlowFlow
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: My Third Eye]
    #389429 - 09/09/01 02:09 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

sorry to be useless but, i like your new icon third eye!

drugs are good, and when you do them people think that your cool


--------------------
(the key-strokes that have completed everything ever typed on this user name have been a random coincidence, except for the words in this notation)


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InvisibleMcMan
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: MycoGlowFlow]
    #390196 - 09/10/01 12:15 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)



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Registered: 03/01/01
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Re: WACK FLUSH! HELP.. *pics* [Re: McMan]
    #412485 - 10/03/01 12:57 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Go back and read the damn thread again. You missed a lot. And I was only using 9 out of 10 as a figure, not a quote. And you still have not changed your new phrase you tried to make up, germ pore matching, no such thing. I asked you which book you got that from, its in none of my books, Its misinformation I brought to your attention and you still have not addressed it.

I wonder if I took the time to read all your other threads here how much misinformation or new phrases you have created. I know you are very knowledgeable in many ways, and we all make mistakes as aspiring ametuer mycologiest, but at least correct the information when you are corrected.

-Peace-
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.thehawkseye.com>www.thehawkseye.com</a>
Sacred Mushroom Spores
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.thehawkseye.com/dbkits/dbkits.html>www.thehawkseye.com/dbkits/dbkits.html</a>
Dung Brothers Premium Mushroom Compost Kits

Edited by Ryche Hawk on 10/03/01 01:58 PM.



--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



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