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Offlinetheknighterrant
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turin shroud controversy nevers ends
    #3697676 - 01/29/05 11:43 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)



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The oldest and strongest emotion of man is fear. The oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.
--H.P. Lovecraft

Demented Piper Press


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: theknighterrant]
    #3697801 - 01/29/05 12:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I find it odd that people that have a religion centered on faith continually try to use science to proove their faith... seems to be a conflict of interest, at least to me.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlineskystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: Seuss]
    #3697810 - 01/29/05 12:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Why?the best way to prove something is through science


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: Seuss]
    #3697935 - 01/29/05 01:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Did you see my post on "Wanting it both ways"? If science bears it out, then the believers go "See? I told you so!" If science does NOT bear it out, they say "It doesn't matter. It is matter of faith, not proof."

This double-standard is espoused on these boards continously on everything from miracle healing to alien visitation to telekinesis.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblePaou
Seeker

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Transcendence
Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: Swami]
    #3697953 - 01/29/05 01:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

What if you have faith, but allow for the possibility of proof? I have faith in String Theory, even though there is no empirical evidence for it. But I believe that one day they may find such evidence.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: Swami]
    #3697960 - 01/29/05 01:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

When has science ever disproven religion?


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


Edited by skystone (01/29/05 01:12 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: skystone]
    #3698020 - 01/29/05 01:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Why?the best way to prove something is through science




Uh, because proof and faith are at opposite ends of the spectrum. With proof there is no need for faith and with faith there is no need for proof. Again, I find it odd that people that profess to have such faith seem to have a need for proof as well. Perhaps their faith isn't as solid as they would like us to believe.

Quote:

I have faith in String Theory, even though there is no empirical evidence for it. But I believe that one day they may find such evidence.




... continue your thought a bit further. If string theory is proven, then you no longer have faith in it as the faith is negated by the proof.

Maybe I am making something out of nothing, but it seems to me there is a large double standard here.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: Seuss]
    #3698054 - 01/29/05 01:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

There are vials of "Saint's blood" in some old churches in Italy. These semi-solids turn to liquid on occasion (when temp and humidity are right) and are used in healing masses. When scientifically tested, there was nothing human or blood-like found in these pigments.

Does that change the believers' minds? Hell, er heaven no!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblePaou
Seeker

Registered: 09/23/04
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: skystone]
    #3698070 - 01/29/05 01:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
When has science ever disproven religion?



Do the names Galileo or Darwin mean anything to you?


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Offlineskystone
stop the motion
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: Seuss]
    #3698072 - 01/29/05 01:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well if you look at religion as an act of faith, then it is oposite from science.

But I look at religion as a databank of some knowledge. Methods of collecting that knowledge are unknown. Science can get to that same knowledge or to different knowledge.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: theknighterrant]
    #3698088 - 01/29/05 01:36 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

There is much factual evidence that the Shroud of Turin was a commisioned work created by Leonardo DaVinci. Forensic examinations have led some scientists to believe this...and that it bears his likeness as Jesus.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (01/29/05 03:49 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: theknighterrant]
    #3698633 - 01/29/05 04:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I started reading books on the Shroud since the late 1970's and I have grown tired of the apparent human error (like taking contaminated fringe areas). Nova had an interesting TV show that first illustrated the topolgy of the form - that it was not painted as a flat surface, and that the individual threads are permeated not just surface-colored. Also, a lot of pollen belonging to the Crown-of-Thorns plant which grows in the Middle East, and which takes it name from the Biblical account of the thorny crown shoved onto Jesus' head, was found around the head and shoulders section of the Shround. Very interesting. Many faithful wish to make a leap of faith and simply believe that this 'relic' is physical evidence of a 'radiant resurrection' of the corpus of Jesus of Nazareth. Leaps of faith are not applicable to tangible, empirical evidence such as this. Primitive silver-salt photography? Super-genius painting technique? Transcendental/Theurgical/Miraculous phenomenon (the Real thing)? Or, perhaps, a 'glitch in the Matrix.'

I believe in Resurrection - I just don't know what exactly THE Resurrection of Jesus was/is. Having Gnostic tendencies, I tend not to adhere strictly to a 'resusitation' of the physical corpus of Jesus idea of Resurrection, although I am not in a position to state that it did not happen. The singular claim for Resurrection - even before the Gospel accounts portrayed it in the popular PR 'empty-tomb narratives' - was the basis for Christianity. Paul's writings were all about his encounter with the Resurrected Christ - NOT with a 'reanimated, transformed corpus,' but with Light and Sound [in the form of Words]. Resurrection in the earlier Osirus mythos and other myths suggest that Resurrection is a return to self-awareness in a post-mortem, other-worldly state of being.

Resurrection taken seriously calls one's conventional view of reality into question. It is very much a Matrix-like realization. The most-dense and most powerful 'illusion' consists in physical reality, the Kabbalist sphere Malkuth [Kingdom]. As soon as we experience less physical, more substantial-seeming mental states (certain high psychedelic states for example), replete with their own degree of certitude, and the more distance one puts between our then transcendental ego and the mundane physical world, the easier it is to entertain the possibility of Resurrection (whatever it may be).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineskystone
stop the motion
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: skystone]
    #3698864 - 01/29/05 05:08 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If you search the entire room and find nothing, that is not a proof that there isn't anything in the room.

You can not prove non-existence. You can only prove existence.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: Seuss]
    #3699313 - 01/29/05 07:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If string theory is proven, then you no longer have faith in it as the faith is negated by the proof.




I disagree. Proof would reaffirm faith, not negate it. Should empirical evidence confirm that string theory is correct, then those who held it to be true as a matter of faith would be proven correct in their faith.

Faith and 'proof' are two ways to subjectively affirm that something is true. One is a bottom up approach and the other is a top down approach. However all apprehension of knowledge requires some amount of faith; faith and proof are two sides of the same coin. Even the scientists must have faith, faith in his instruments, faith in his senses, and faith in the scientific method.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: Seuss]
    #3699429 - 01/29/05 08:25 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i believe it was people trying to disprove the authenticity via science, rather than believers trying to prove it


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Offlinecrazyman
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: theknighterrant]
    #3700439 - 01/30/05 01:20 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The shroud is not what it's made out to be. IF "they" layed a shroud on top of Jesus, or any man, the cloth would have conformed to his 3-dimensional face.....After you took the shroud off of his face, then layed the shroud out flat, like it's displayed, then the facial image would be retarded, or stretched-looking. The image on the shroud isn't that way. That instantly negates that the image was produced by laying or wrapping the face/corpse with cloth.... IF it was Jesus' image or any other mans', they would have had to have a flat 2-dimensional face to produce the image the shroud gives.

And IF you really have faith in the religion, (or any ), of Christianity, then why would you need "proof". That negates the concept of faith.


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I want to live in Northern Exposure. Ed Chigliak would be my pal.



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Offlinetheknighterrant
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: theknighterrant]
    #3701767 - 01/30/05 11:38 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

hmm, i didn't think that this would become such an interesting discussion. keep it up guys!

tke


--------------------
The oldest and strongest emotion of man is fear. The oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.
--H.P. Lovecraft

Demented Piper Press


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: crazyman]
    #3701835 - 01/30/05 11:57 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

and it doesn't look warped at all to you? It does to me.. No one looks like that.

As for people needing that proof for faith- they don't. It's just a curiosity to them- if you found an object that was described as your favorite dead artists' long lost inspiration, wouldn't you be curious? The shroud has nothing to do with faith- no one will renounce their faith because they found out a little shroud supposedly with jesus' image was fabricated.


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InvisibleClark
Bar RoomSuperman

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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: vampirism]
    #3701863 - 01/30/05 12:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

To me, the most humorous aspect of this patent fraud is the way one forearm is grossly extended in order to cover the figure's willie johnson.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: turin shroud controversy nevers ends [Re: skystone]
    #3701870 - 01/30/05 12:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
Why?the best way to prove something is through science




how, would one, prove, that one is proving anything, by proving it?
faith? intent? replication? I could go on, now couldn't I.. :heart:
thank you for listening. :eek:


(I'm happy! sue me)


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Disclaimer!?


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