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OfflineMig
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What causes aborts?
    #3691081 - 01/27/05 11:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The reason I ask is that many of my cakes (PF Tek) will sprout numerous pins, but will generally only have one mushroom grow to full size, and all the other pins end up aborting (a perfect example is my bulbous growth cake). I'm puzzled because if the environment was at fault (too low/high RH or temperature), why would a single mushroom flourish but all the rest abort? This leads me to wonder just why aborts happen to begin with...

And before I get the obligatory "search before you ask stupid questions" reply, I did search. I found tons of threads regarding aborts, but none that really explained what causes them.

Any insight to this, or links to threads that my searches didn't find, would be most appreciated.


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Offlinephantasm
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Mig]
    #3691153 - 01/27/05 11:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

to little Rh, to much water, not enough FAE, too low temps, too high temps, not enough nutrients basicly anything that makes your mushrooms unhappy

your single mushroom question is reasonable and while it does not make much sense some mushrooms are just stronger than others its like asking why one rose wilts before the others

-mike


--------------------
Only God Grows Amanita Muscaria


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OfflineFungus_Farmer
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Mig]
    #3691159 - 01/27/05 11:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't have an answer for you but I too have done a ton of research and haven't found any answers concerning aborts. (just backing you up here, and hoping for an answer as well.)


--------------------
Excerpt from one of my textbooks:
Therefore, between a then and its matching else, there cannot be an if statement without an else. Statements must be distinguished between those that are matched and those that are unmatched, where unmatched statements are else-less ifs and all other statements are matched.
I wonder if that would make more sense if I was tripping when I read it.


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Offline4hodmt
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: phantasm]
    #3691223 - 01/27/05 11:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

phantasm said:
basicly anything that makes your mushrooms unhappy


-mike






yeah, too little/much humidity, water, air exchange, nutrients, temperature, light. and that dosnt even include contams


--------------------
all posts made by 4hodmt are entirely ficticious. the user 4hodmt has noa ffiliation with any company, or organization; any endorsements made by 4hodmt are to be considered a joke. any similarity between a person (or story) 4hodmt is talking about is entirely happenstance. 4hodmt is not to be taken seriously under any circumstance. furthermore, he does not know what he is talking about. Please ignore anything 4hodmt has to say.


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OfflinePupenhause
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: 4hodmt]
    #3691376 - 01/28/05 12:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

my first flush was nearly all aborts. but 2nd and 3rd had lots of big yummy mushrooms.


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OfflineTweexican
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Pupenhause]
    #3691713 - 01/28/05 01:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i think everyone is really wondering what to do about aborts.


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OfflineCPT_InSaNo
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Tweexican]
    #3691847 - 01/28/05 02:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tweexican said:
i think everyone is really wondering what to do about aborts.





EAT THEM!!!!!  :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :mushroom2: :rocket:


--------------------
"We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been. Spiral out. Keep going, going..."
Tool, Lateralus




Anything in my above post is 100% fictional.

R.I.P. Hunter S. Thompson


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OfflineTweexican
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: CPT_InSaNo]
    #3692004 - 01/28/05 03:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

no no, not what to do WITH them, what to do about them. do you pick them early? do you hope for the best? anyone?


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InvisibleSHiZNO
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Tweexican]
    #3692021 - 01/28/05 03:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

unwanted pregnancy


pick aborts before they rot (cap will start turning black)


--------------------
...


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OfflineTweexican
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: SHiZNO]
    #3692079 - 01/28/05 03:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

thx


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Offlinephatboy
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Tweexican]
    #3692314 - 01/28/05 05:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

so, is it ok to eat aborts???


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Offlinegsmith
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: phatboy]
    #3692553 - 01/28/05 09:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes it's ok to eat aborts. please do... some people claim they're more potent than full grown shrooms. I myself have never noticed the difference.

When growing mushrooms indoors, they require a very delicately balanced micro-climate. Any change or deficiency in that climate can cause the mushroom to just stop growing. aborts can happen for any of the reasons listed above, and without a better description of your grow setup it would be hard for any of us to pin point a reason. aborts can also be caused by the strain itself. I just grew a thai strain that aborted more than half of the pins. It also had a ton of fat asses. I had one shroom that was wider than it was tall... but man did those shrooms kick ass.

but just to take a wild stab at a guess here... since you said you were using pf cakes, my guess is that your RH is too low or you didn't have a proper moisture content when you made the cake and the pins just ran out of steam.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: gsmith]
    #3693021 - 01/28/05 12:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The verm looks a bit dry to me...I'd say not enough water in the substrate or not enough misting...


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineHambo
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3693112 - 01/28/05 01:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe you could try picking any mushrooms that look like theyre going to go supersize and hog all the water/nutes for the flush, before all the other pins turn into aborts? Maybe that mushhroom is using all the energy the myc can produce.

I dunno. But if you did that and they still all aborted, you wouldn't even have the big shroom after.

As it happens, this occured on the few cakes I bothered trying to grow from on the mex strain. But not so with the Thai PB strain I am currently playing with. (shrug)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Hambo]
    #3693216 - 01/28/05 01:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Switching strains can help sometimes... They lied when they said all cubies are the same. All cubies will give you different results though so dont expect to find out which strain will work best for you without actually trying them all.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMig
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Mig]
    #3693435 - 01/28/05 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for all suggestions folks! However, I'm not really trying to diagnose my particular setup, but merely trying to understand the cause of aborts in general. Kind of like "long skinny stems are almost always caused by too little O2" or "split caps are almost always caused by too low of RH".

In any case, the concensus seems to be that aborts are not caused by anything in particular, and can be caused by anything. Would this be a correct statement?

Also, if the conditions were so far from optimal to cause massive aborts, is it reasonable that one mushroom would be able to flourish? I would *think* if they were that far off, none would survive... but I don't know that for sure.


Edited by Mig (01/28/05 08:50 PM)


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Mig]
    #3693633 - 01/28/05 03:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I've had that problem before. Seems like it has to do w/ myc. growth I would think. Typically when my rh is to low i get split caps, and not a lot of abhort, i do however pick everything off as soon as several or most mushies mature. So rh hasnt really effected mine.

My cakes get rhizomorphic (Creep strain) and for some reason the don't produce many mature mushroons, I do however get lots and lots of abhorts.

A foaf's cakes (malabar) get really fluffy, so it's not agressive growth and takes a bit longer to colonize than mine. Well he's had beautiful pinsets and minimal abhorts. I'm not sure how myc. growth in it's early stages would cause thing but I'm thinking that maybe when you get rhizo's, it makes the cake lose some energy and maybe that's why your yields can't fully develop, but that's just what I've noticed and it may vary for others, just my .o2..

-Gl

-Gnostic


Edited by IGnosticAbhorI (01/28/05 03:24 PM)


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OfflineFungus_Farmer
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3695186 - 01/28/05 09:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My cakes get rhizomorphic (Creep strain) and for some reason the don't produce many mature mushroons, I do however get lots and lots of abhorts.

A foaf's cakes (malabar) get really fluffy, so it's not agressive growth and takes a bit longer to colonize than mine. Well he's had beautiful pinsets and minimal abhorts. I'm not sure how myc. growth in it's early stages would cause thing but I'm thinking that maybe when you get rhizo's, it makes the cake lose some energy and maybe that's why your yields can't fully develop, but that's just what I've noticed and it may vary for others, just my .o2..




That's a damn interesting hypothesis, one of the most original, insightful comments I've seen on this forum. Makes so much sense, in fact, that I'd be surprised if it weren't true. This is something worth investigating, for anyone who's interested. If we shroomers of today can figure it out, then the shroomers a couple years from now will have one more useful bit of knowledge that we weren't lucky enough to start out with, and were forced to learn the hard way.


--------------------
Excerpt from one of my textbooks:
Therefore, between a then and its matching else, there cannot be an if statement without an else. Statements must be distinguished between those that are matched and those that are unmatched, where unmatched statements are else-less ifs and all other statements are matched.
I wonder if that would make more sense if I was tripping when I read it.


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OfflineShroomwhisperer
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Mig]
    #3695915 - 01/29/05 12:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Great job posting the grow log!

From the pic's I'd say the cakes do not have enough water to support proper fruiting. From my friend's experience, you can not over water mushrooms, my friend keeps his cakes in a half inch of standing water and mist twice a day.

Given enough water reserve and humidity, the main reason for the entire cake to abort is a bad strain, senesence. However, there are many variables. Your strain looks fine. To answer your question would require a thesis. Most strains produce abundant aborts even thought they fruit very well.

The old PF strain would pin above 95% RH, but abort unless fruiting below 95% RH. EQ's love to fruit at 95% RH+.

Put your cakes in standing water, mist 2 to 4 times a day as required, spray the top of the cake to saturation twice a day, stand back and wait.


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Shroomwhisperer]
    #3695944 - 01/29/05 12:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Too much water= Contams and overlay during fruiting...

And I agree about the variables but bad strain? I don't think that hypothesis is a very good one. Unless you're talking about it being contamed. or something to that effect.

And put your cakes in standing water?!?!?!...I don't mean to sound like a dick but if you're going to do that then why not throw them in some green mold while you're at it. Standing water has BAD written all over it. But, if that's what you think will help, go for it. Good luck on w/e you decide to do. just my .o2..I'll search for a link in a sec. to help further prove what i'm saying, Gl


-Gnostic

Edit: Here's that info. I promised. It's located here inside of "The Magic Mushrooms Grower's Guide"

Link: http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/3372/sty/print/spl/0/par/3372/

I've also heard of some people using standing water, but they Always had a mixed solution w/ h202, but it's wasn't really worth it from what i've seen. Enjoy :cheers:



Edited by IGnosticAbhorI (01/29/05 12:57 AM)


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3698912 - 01/29/05 05:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

bump?


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3699069 - 01/29/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, aborts, why are aborts caused. Why dont we try and look at this from a more nature/survival aspect. You're a mass of mycellium looking to pass on your genetics, to do this your going to have to try hold out on producing mushrooms until your environmental conditions are optimal. So the days start to cool off a little bit, maybe getting a little sprinkle of rain everynow and again. So you decide to start producing mushrooms. Now a few days into fruiting the temp. sky rockets into the upper 90s maybe even into the 100s. The mass of mycellium sensing this extreme change in conditions is going to abort the pins that were growing. This can be a good example of alot of different scenarios, heavy rains, extremely low temps. etc. etc. This can also be directly linked to indoor cultivation. I like the point of different strains will be more finicky and may be more prone to aborts due to environmental changes and flucuations. Thats just my two cents on the subject.

Also im not saying that this is the absolute. Im sure there are some other reasons for aborts.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Edited by hawksapprentice (01/29/05 06:31 PM)


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3699100 - 01/29/05 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hey hawk, <^> <^>...
j/k...:thumbup:, nothing better than meeting another point of view that acually makes some sort of sense...


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3699154 - 01/29/05 06:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

in cultivation we control all those factors, why then would we still have aborts?


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3699169 - 01/29/05 07:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe one my previous posts might explain?
That or it's just one of those anomalies that we just can't control then?....Who knows...lol...


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3699193 - 01/29/05 07:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And that is the reason i stressed the nature part of this. To explain the cause of aborts, well, so part of the nature theory will work with this also. It is the mycelliums goal to pass on the best genes it possibly can. And if one fruit was doing phenomenally better than the other pins/fruits then it would abort the ones that were doing poorly, and focus its energy into the remaining mushrooms. This would help explain the the cause of aborts in a controlled environment. Not that this is the only reason you would have aborts in cultivation.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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OfflineMycoJunkie
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3699473 - 01/29/05 08:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I hear too much h202 in your mist/dunk can cause aborts.


--------------------
:cussing::whip:


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: MycoJunkie]
    #3699670 - 01/29/05 09:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And thats why you use it in moderation. When dunking say your using quart jars, first dunk in the jar before casing i would use a capful of H2O2. Less for smaller size jars.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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Offlinegsmith
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Mig]
    #3706858 - 01/31/05 10:44 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mig said:
Also, if the conditions were so far from optimal to cause massive aborts, is it reasonable that one mushroom would be able to flourish? I would *think* if they were that far off, none would survive... but I don't know that for sure.




Not true actually... you'd be surprised. I left a bunch of jars in a tub one time that I had just taken the substrate out of and cased. I guess one of the jars had a couple colonized rye kernels still in it, because when I finally got off my lazy ass three weeks later to clean out those jars, there was a single mushroom in one of them. It was about five inches tall, about as thick as a strand of spaghetti and had a cap the size of a tack that dropped a TON of spores. By the time I got to it, it was already cracker dry. A quick summary of the carefully balanced micro-climate I gave this thing:

- No light
- No air exchange
- No additional water beyond what was in those rye kernels
- No high RH
- No casing

sometimes these things will surprise you.


--------------------
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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3707421 - 01/31/05 02:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

IGnosticAbhorI said:

I'm not sure how myc. growth in it's early stages would cause thing but I'm thinking that maybe when you get rhizo's, it makes the cake lose some energy and maybe that's why your yields can't fully develop, but that's just what I've noticed and it may vary for others, just my .o2..





That is an incorrect observation. Rhizomorphic growth is what you want to see, it is directly related to healthy primordia development. There is no energy loss when you "get rhizo's", it is a sign that the mycelium is healthy and vigorous...


--------------------
To give is to live...



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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: ATWAR]
    #3707818 - 01/31/05 04:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ATWAR....then would you care to explain why i've gotten 3 mature mushies and lots of abhort in optimal conditions? Whereas a friend who uses the same procedures BUT has different looking cakes (fluffy myc. and not rhizo's..less energy wasted perhaps? and his colonize about 4 days quicker) gets nothing but mature mushies and monsters...sometimes an abhort here and there, but makes me look like a noob....

and Gsmith...Perhaps it was...as how hawk put it...nature's way of trying to preserve life....perhaps the cake saw that its life was coming to an end and tried its hardest to get spores out...?Procreation?...It's just another LOGICAL Hypothesis....

if you guys dont make any obvious guesses then how will you ever get any better at explaining anything? Saying"oh well, b/c it jus does", doesn't really cut it for some people...but hey/ thats jus my .02...good luck everybody

-Gnostic

O and by the way...I know what rhiomorphic growth is and what it means...but look at my observations and tell me what u would think...It SEEMS like my cakes as using lots of energy Elsewhere, somewhere Other than matureing mushies...damn, its jus an observation lol...gnostic out


Edited by IGnosticAbhorI (01/31/05 04:31 PM)


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3710985 - 02/01/05 01:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

IGnosticAbhorI said:
ATWAR....then would you care to explain why i've gotten 3 mature mushies and lots of abhort in optimal conditions? Whereas a friend who uses the same procedures BUT has different looking cakes (fluffy myc. and not rhizo's..less energy wasted perhaps? and his colonize about 4 days quicker) gets nothing but mature mushies and monsters...sometimes an abhort here and there, but makes me look like a noob....





So basically you are using the exact same isolate, with perfectly duplicated conditions? Doubtful...
The LOGICAL explanation to the cause has already been posted in this thread: It could be a number of things.

The observation in growth differences is an indication to me that his conditions are more optimal than yours. When you work with multi-spore you will have varying results (you also stated two different strains). There are many things that can lead to aborts, but the primary reason I believe them to happen is simply the fact that we can generate huge pinsets in our artificial environment. It is basically impossible for all these mushrooms to develop with the existing nutritional and water content at the time they set. It is a simple fact that if there are more primordia than can be supported by the growth medium, they will abort (some species enter a "resting stage"). Then with the common multi-spore grow you have different colonies of mycelium, each either fights for the nutrients or can share them with neighbor colonies. The strongest survive to fruit, the weaker sub-strains abort.




I don't understand how you came to the "logical" conclusion that rhizomorphic growth wastes energy. This is completely wrong. The rhizomorphic growth is what rips through the subtrate to get that "energy"... Nutrient pipelines...
:confused:


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Invisiblemetasin
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: ATWAR]
    #3711425 - 02/01/05 03:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So what gnostics is trying to say is that his rhizomorphic growth is great for colonization but he finds tomentose growth after birth to be the key to successful fruiting.


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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: metasin]
    #3711426 - 02/01/05 03:16 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I find that happening after a dunk quite often actually.
I <3 teh fuzz


Edited by recondite (02/01/05 03:28 AM)


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: metasin]
    #3711870 - 02/01/05 06:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thankx recondite for wording that better lol

And yes, many many variables and yea, it's hard to produce so many at once...even with the most nutrious subs. (poo,straw ect ect), And he really doesn't have more optimal temps. but then again I need a control and such to experiment to conclude my hypothesis...but w/e....it's just a guess, who knows...lol...good luck to ya in your grows...:cheers:


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3712122 - 02/01/05 08:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Tomentose or rhizo has nothing to do with aborts, I don't know how that got into the equation but thats getting off track. many variables do play a roll and optimum conditions will lessen the chances considerably. I've personally seen the majority of aborts from dryer conditions (less than near saturation) and fruiting temps that are higher than optimum. As far as anyone duplicating conditions, hardly possible, when labs do controlled experiments they good to great lengths to assure there as close to the median as possible, hard for a home grower to duplicate. just my $.02


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