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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3698912 - 01/29/05 05:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

bump?


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3699069 - 01/29/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, aborts, why are aborts caused. Why dont we try and look at this from a more nature/survival aspect. You're a mass of mycellium looking to pass on your genetics, to do this your going to have to try hold out on producing mushrooms until your environmental conditions are optimal. So the days start to cool off a little bit, maybe getting a little sprinkle of rain everynow and again. So you decide to start producing mushrooms. Now a few days into fruiting the temp. sky rockets into the upper 90s maybe even into the 100s. The mass of mycellium sensing this extreme change in conditions is going to abort the pins that were growing. This can be a good example of alot of different scenarios, heavy rains, extremely low temps. etc. etc. This can also be directly linked to indoor cultivation. I like the point of different strains will be more finicky and may be more prone to aborts due to environmental changes and flucuations. Thats just my two cents on the subject.

Also im not saying that this is the absolute. Im sure there are some other reasons for aborts.


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"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Edited by hawksapprentice (01/29/05 06:31 PM)


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3699100 - 01/29/05 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hey hawk, <^> <^>...
j/k...:thumbup:, nothing better than meeting another point of view that acually makes some sort of sense...


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3699154 - 01/29/05 06:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

in cultivation we control all those factors, why then would we still have aborts?


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3699169 - 01/29/05 07:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe one my previous posts might explain?
That or it's just one of those anomalies that we just can't control then?....Who knows...lol...


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3699193 - 01/29/05 07:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And that is the reason i stressed the nature part of this. To explain the cause of aborts, well, so part of the nature theory will work with this also. It is the mycelliums goal to pass on the best genes it possibly can. And if one fruit was doing phenomenally better than the other pins/fruits then it would abort the ones that were doing poorly, and focus its energy into the remaining mushrooms. This would help explain the the cause of aborts in a controlled environment. Not that this is the only reason you would have aborts in cultivation.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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OfflineMycoJunkie
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3699473 - 01/29/05 08:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I hear too much h202 in your mist/dunk can cause aborts.


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: MycoJunkie]
    #3699670 - 01/29/05 09:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And thats why you use it in moderation. When dunking say your using quart jars, first dunk in the jar before casing i would use a capful of H2O2. Less for smaller size jars.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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Offlinegsmith
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: Mig]
    #3706858 - 01/31/05 10:44 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mig said:
Also, if the conditions were so far from optimal to cause massive aborts, is it reasonable that one mushroom would be able to flourish? I would *think* if they were that far off, none would survive... but I don't know that for sure.




Not true actually... you'd be surprised. I left a bunch of jars in a tub one time that I had just taken the substrate out of and cased. I guess one of the jars had a couple colonized rye kernels still in it, because when I finally got off my lazy ass three weeks later to clean out those jars, there was a single mushroom in one of them. It was about five inches tall, about as thick as a strand of spaghetti and had a cap the size of a tack that dropped a TON of spores. By the time I got to it, it was already cracker dry. A quick summary of the carefully balanced micro-climate I gave this thing:

- No light
- No air exchange
- No additional water beyond what was in those rye kernels
- No high RH
- No casing

sometimes these things will surprise you.


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3707421 - 01/31/05 02:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

IGnosticAbhorI said:

I'm not sure how myc. growth in it's early stages would cause thing but I'm thinking that maybe when you get rhizo's, it makes the cake lose some energy and maybe that's why your yields can't fully develop, but that's just what I've noticed and it may vary for others, just my .o2..





That is an incorrect observation. Rhizomorphic growth is what you want to see, it is directly related to healthy primordia development. There is no energy loss when you "get rhizo's", it is a sign that the mycelium is healthy and vigorous...


--------------------
To give is to live...



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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: ATWAR]
    #3707818 - 01/31/05 04:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ATWAR....then would you care to explain why i've gotten 3 mature mushies and lots of abhort in optimal conditions? Whereas a friend who uses the same procedures BUT has different looking cakes (fluffy myc. and not rhizo's..less energy wasted perhaps? and his colonize about 4 days quicker) gets nothing but mature mushies and monsters...sometimes an abhort here and there, but makes me look like a noob....

and Gsmith...Perhaps it was...as how hawk put it...nature's way of trying to preserve life....perhaps the cake saw that its life was coming to an end and tried its hardest to get spores out...?Procreation?...It's just another LOGICAL Hypothesis....

if you guys dont make any obvious guesses then how will you ever get any better at explaining anything? Saying"oh well, b/c it jus does", doesn't really cut it for some people...but hey/ thats jus my .02...good luck everybody

-Gnostic

O and by the way...I know what rhiomorphic growth is and what it means...but look at my observations and tell me what u would think...It SEEMS like my cakes as using lots of energy Elsewhere, somewhere Other than matureing mushies...damn, its jus an observation lol...gnostic out


Edited by IGnosticAbhorI (01/31/05 04:31 PM)


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3710985 - 02/01/05 01:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

IGnosticAbhorI said:
ATWAR....then would you care to explain why i've gotten 3 mature mushies and lots of abhort in optimal conditions? Whereas a friend who uses the same procedures BUT has different looking cakes (fluffy myc. and not rhizo's..less energy wasted perhaps? and his colonize about 4 days quicker) gets nothing but mature mushies and monsters...sometimes an abhort here and there, but makes me look like a noob....





So basically you are using the exact same isolate, with perfectly duplicated conditions? Doubtful...
The LOGICAL explanation to the cause has already been posted in this thread: It could be a number of things.

The observation in growth differences is an indication to me that his conditions are more optimal than yours. When you work with multi-spore you will have varying results (you also stated two different strains). There are many things that can lead to aborts, but the primary reason I believe them to happen is simply the fact that we can generate huge pinsets in our artificial environment. It is basically impossible for all these mushrooms to develop with the existing nutritional and water content at the time they set. It is a simple fact that if there are more primordia than can be supported by the growth medium, they will abort (some species enter a "resting stage"). Then with the common multi-spore grow you have different colonies of mycelium, each either fights for the nutrients or can share them with neighbor colonies. The strongest survive to fruit, the weaker sub-strains abort.




I don't understand how you came to the "logical" conclusion that rhizomorphic growth wastes energy. This is completely wrong. The rhizomorphic growth is what rips through the subtrate to get that "energy"... Nutrient pipelines...
:confused:


--------------------
To give is to live...



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Invisiblemetasin
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: ATWAR]
    #3711425 - 02/01/05 03:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So what gnostics is trying to say is that his rhizomorphic growth is great for colonization but he finds tomentose growth after birth to be the key to successful fruiting.


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Invisiblemetasin
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: metasin]
    #3711426 - 02/01/05 03:16 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I find that happening after a dunk quite often actually.
I <3 teh fuzz


Edited by recondite (02/01/05 03:28 AM)


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: metasin]
    #3711870 - 02/01/05 06:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thankx recondite for wording that better lol

And yes, many many variables and yea, it's hard to produce so many at once...even with the most nutrious subs. (poo,straw ect ect), And he really doesn't have more optimal temps. but then again I need a control and such to experiment to conclude my hypothesis...but w/e....it's just a guess, who knows...lol...good luck to ya in your grows...:cheers:


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: What causes aborts? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3712122 - 02/01/05 08:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Tomentose or rhizo has nothing to do with aborts, I don't know how that got into the equation but thats getting off track. many variables do play a roll and optimum conditions will lessen the chances considerably. I've personally seen the majority of aborts from dryer conditions (less than near saturation) and fruiting temps that are higher than optimum. As far as anyone duplicating conditions, hardly possible, when labs do controlled experiments they good to great lengths to assure there as close to the median as possible, hard for a home grower to duplicate. just my $.02


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