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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3695382 - 01/28/05 10:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think im coming off in the wrong way. Its not that its "wrong" per se. My point is that when a couple is presented in a children's cartoon show, it is usually totally devoid of sexual innuendo and most likely related to the parental/family structure. However, when people start intentionally inserting gay characters, while it may be devoid of sexual innuendo, thier intent is most likely to influence a response from the child about the relationship that will inevitably progress to the sexual conotations of the situation being questioned. Basically, they are not introducing gay characters just because it reflects real life and they think the child will best identify with this and, therefore, appreciate the cartoon. They are doing it to intentionally illicit a response as to the nature of the relationship from children in an attempt to further thier agenda of "adapting" these impressionable youths into a model of society that they think is best. I think that is wrong.

What ever happened to stuff like thundercats, fraggle rock, sesame street, superman....cartoons that really tried to influence root values like just being nice and helping everyone. Now we have to directly teach 5 year olds about homosexuality and racism? What happened to preserving the innocence of youth in the hopes of raising a generation that is better than us in every way?

I guess that the "progressives" will just have to find out that teaching children about differences will only make them differentiate. I believe that only by preserving our children's conceptions will we defeat prejudice and hatred. I mean, do children hate? do they have the same prejudices as adults? or are those just "differences" learned over time?


Edited by Catalysis (01/28/05 10:28 PM)


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: Catalysis]
    #3695744 - 01/28/05 11:50 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I have a number of points I would like to touch on in regards to your recent post. First I'd like to point out what I thought should be the obvious which is the fact that young children view the coupling of adult pairs in a different light than we as adults do. Many young children who do not yet have a grasp on the intricacies of sexual relationships will view my aforementioned example without regard and just "accept" it as being normal.

You spoke of preserving the innocence of youth. To do so you must keep them in the dark about the world. So it's the same as to say you want to preserve the ignorance of youth. This is not going to bring about the generation that is better than us in every way that you so hope for. How can we hope them to surpass us if we seek to hide from them the truths about the world which they will certainly find out one day for themselves and by then it may be too late for they have already formed their prejudices.

You also mentioned cartoons that influence root values like being nice and helping everyone. Doesn't everyone include homosexuals? Shouldn't they be allowed the "acceptance" I spoke of earlier? You said that you believed the only way to deafeat prejudiced and hatred was to preserve our children's conceptions. What conceptions are you referring to? That man and woman come together in marriage and make a family and that's the way it should be and anything outside of this union is somehow abnormal?

If this is your thinking that's fine. You certainly have the right to your own opinion. Because it is abnormal. It's un-natural. Some homosexuals may not like to hear this but it certainly isn't the way nature intended it.

But, whatever natures intentions are, it's irrelevant for we are complex emotional creatures. We are dealing with people and for one reason or another some of the people we inhabit this planet with prefer to be with a same sex partner and we need to learn to accept this and not judge them for thier choices. We also need to show our children from the start that it's normal that they will encounter these people and they are no different than anyone else but thier sexual orientation.

I can understand you wanting to protect your children and believe it or not I hold many of the same values as you. I personally want to see my children grow up, marry someone of the opposite sex, and start making me some grandchildren. But, what I want first and foremost is for them to be happy. And if happy for them is with a same sex partner then that's fine by me. And just to clue you in to a little about me, I'm a single heterosexual male with no children. I say this only to show you that I possess the very same morals and values that you do it just seems we only differ on the subject of child rearing. :smile:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: Catalysis]
    #3695775 - 01/28/05 11:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I guess that the "progressives" will just have to find out that teaching children about differences will only make them differentiate.

I don't follow your logic here. Should they have not put Gordon (the black guy), on Sesame Street, because it just taught kids to think black people are different?

I think they should include homosexual couples on children's programs, but they should be treated exactly the same as heterosexual couples are, that way, the children don't learn to see them as something strange and different, but just as other members of society.

I'm not sure your argument here has any real basis. Are you honestly suggesting that by not exposing children to the idea of homosexual couples, they're going to treat homosexual couples as more normal?

If that were true, wouldn't it mean that meeting a human who could fly would seem more normal now than if I hadn't been exposed to flying people in the past?


--------------------
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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3695838 - 01/29/05 12:17 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Well here im in the position of not wholly agreeing with either side of the argument.  I disagree that we should intentionally incorperate these issues of prejudice into our children's entertainment, however you guys are correct in saying that homosexuality is not a bad thing.  Im trying to convey that i agree with that.  Actually I completely agree 100% with you on child rearing and if my (hypothetical) child is happy being gay, thats great.  Both my cousin and one of my step-sisters are homosexual and I have great relationships with them and they are very happy.  I am (maybe badly) trying to convey that this is less of a "hot button" issue of progressive parenting than it is simply an inappropriate incorporation of issues that really don't need to be addressed at that age, in my opinion.

Also, I understand your point about gordon on sesame street and i disagree with adding a black guy if its just for the sake of having "that one black guy" so kids can adapt to it.  Shit, Ernie was like orange and Bert was yellow.  Cookie monster was fucking blue for christ sake lol. Who was "the white guy"?  Should they have made characters with malcom X crosses and ku klux klan hoods to demonstrate racism better?  Where does it stop?

edit: and yes, ive heard about them trying to put an HIV positive character on sesame street.  In my mind, they have totally lost thier way.  Pretty soon they are going to have the marine puppet and the muslim so they can "get with the times" because they are just so progressive.  :rolleyes:

Maybe if we introduce are kids to racial and social divisions at an earlier age they will somehow learn that we are all the same.  Im not sure how but i guess that is the trend so we will see how it turns out.


Edited by Catalysis (01/29/05 12:39 AM)


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3696079 - 01/29/05 01:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

13eetleJuice said:
That's a mighty fine comparison of gay relationships to the Klu Klux Klan. Oh yes, of course you're absolutely correct. Those damn gays are just as evil and as much a plague on the human race as a bunch of redneck white supremesists running around in bedsheets stringing up "them niggers" from oak trees. [/endsarcasm]




i'm not saying that they must portray them in a positive light. do you want your kids exposed to that at a young age, or would you rather them preserve thier 'innocence' until they are old enough to understand what you are explaining to them?


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: SoopaX]
    #3696083 - 01/29/05 01:40 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sure plenty of kids saw the South Park episode that had the KKK in it.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: Paou]
    #3696084 - 01/29/05 01:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Was it funded by tax dollars?


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: SoopaX]
    #3696091 - 01/29/05 01:43 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

No. Was this? I didn't catch that part.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: Paou]
    #3696097 - 01/29/05 01:46 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Well its PBS so i think they are a government funded channel but im not sure about the details.

Quote:

i'm not saying that they must portray them in a positive light. do you want your kids exposed to that at a young age, or would you rather them preserve thier 'innocence' until they are old enough to understand what you are explaining to them?




Thats my problem. I think the whole point of some of this is to try and expose the kids to this stuff BEFORE they are old enough to understand it so we can "mold" them into the people we want them to be.


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: SoopaX]
    #3696098 - 01/29/05 01:46 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
Quote:

13eetleJuice said:
That's a mighty fine comparison of gay relationships to the Klu Klux Klan. Oh yes, of course you're absolutely correct. Those damn gays are just as evil and as much a plague on the human race as a bunch of redneck white supremesists running around in bedsheets stringing up "them niggers" from oak trees. [/endsarcasm]




i'm not saying that they must portray them in a positive light. do you want your kids exposed to that at a young age, or would you rather them preserve thier 'innocence' until they are old enough to understand what you are explaining to them?




I've already answered that question in post #3695744. Feel free to read it if you'd actually like to know the answer. I however feel you assumed this an obvious answer and meant it as a rhetorical question. Nevertheless we do share a difference in opinion but hey, that's a good thing. Democracy in action. Majority rules and all that shit. I'm all for it. *goes off to wave the flag*


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: Paou]
    #3696121 - 01/29/05 01:57 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Yes. Southpark is also explicitly not for children, while this was. Apples and Garlic cloves.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3696125 - 01/29/05 01:59 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

13eetleJuice said:
No, I don't see your point. Whats the difference if in a cartoon as the kids are out playing and riding thier bikes down the street they pass by a married heterosexual couple on the sidewalk and say the female has her arm around her husbands waist and he has his arm around her shoulders and they are both facing in the direction of the street watching the children but obviously sharing a moment of casual embrace between one another. Now, take that same scenario and insert a homosexual couple who are doing this very same thing. How is this example, any different, wrong, or in threat of this honor system you speak of?




Lets say that it's five people who are planning an orgy. All of them are hugging and kissing each other in a way that would be acceptable for children to view heterosexual couples. Good or bad? Or too "mature' for their mindsets?


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: SoopaX]
    #3696132 - 01/29/05 02:03 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What is acceptable is subjective to who you ask but whatever is acceptable in a cartoon for a heterosexual couple should be acceptable for a homosexual couple. If you can't see this then you have a prejudice against homosexuals whether you realize it or not. That is all.


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3696140 - 01/29/05 02:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Watch Ren & Stimpy sometime. It's full of homosexual undertones.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3696141 - 01/29/05 02:06 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So what about four men all kissing and hugging. Acceptable or not?


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: SoopaX]
    #3696162 - 01/29/05 02:18 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I'm not sure what context you're referring too when you say "all kissing and huggin". Are they doing so in a loving embrace such as you might see a married couple do at the front door just before the man gets in the car heads off to work? Or are they doing so in a fashion that might resemble a teenage boy and girl going at it with groping hands, heavy breathing, and lots of tongue?

It's still irellevant either way. If something is deemed by you as acceptable for a hetero couple but the very same thing is not acceptable for a homo couple then you have prejudices. And it's ok if you do. You are entitled to your opinion and I would expect someone who harbors prejudices against others to want to teach this same thing to thier children. And that's fine as well. That is what is so great about this country. It doesn't however make it right.


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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3697055 - 01/29/05 07:28 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

:loveeyes: 13eetlejuice :heartpump: 

I love reading your posts.:oogle:


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: StonedShroom]
    #3697529 - 01/29/05 10:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What if the eposode got taken off the air because an interracial couple happend in to the show? Whould that change things?

What about showing a black person as anything other then 'the help'.

Basicly, the people in power currently want gay people to be viewed as a plague, the second class citizans. This is accomplished by things like making sure any refference to gay's in children's media is contested. (to make sure that it is preceived as dirty, or not sutable for children because it it incorrect)

The part about this whole non cence that really gets me, is that they justify disrespecting gays because they have a 'choice' in the matter. It would be like telling black people to become more pure, like Michael Jackson.

"Ya see nows, them could take the high road and bleach there personality away, but they just gotsta be a mockery and keeps there nigger coloured skin."


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: Catalysis]
    #3697640 - 01/29/05 11:35 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)


Also, I understand your point about gordon on sesame street and i disagree with adding a black guy if its just for the sake of having "that one black guy" so kids can adapt to it. Shit, Ernie was like orange and Bert was yellow. Cookie monster was fucking blue for christ sake lol. Who was "the white guy"? Should they have made characters with malcom X crosses and ku klux klan hoods to demonstrate racism better? Where does it stop?


The point isn't to show differences though, or to demonstrate racism. It's to present the similarities. Gordon was certainly black, but he was a friendly Seasame Street dude, just like all the other people on the show. They didn't bring him on and say "this is the BLACK GUY".

We've reached a point in time where we've been so innundated with political correctness that it's started to seem ridiculous, and people are lashing out against it. But they forget that there are some benefits. It's stupid to have a multicultural cast on a sitcom just so that you can represent all ethnic groups, but it's not stupid to have a few different people on a children's show, so that children learn not to treat outsiders suspiciously when they grow old.

It's important to remember that, despite its faults, political correctness began to address a very real set of problems, and by directly attacking political correctness in children's television, we're promoting those problems rather than addressing the negative issues related to political correctness.

Who was "the white guy"?

David and Mr. Hooper were both white.

HIV positive muppets, and a muslim muppet would be silly because it's trying to explain complex issues to kids. Having people that look different, or have different kinds of families is fine, but there's no way a five year old is going to pick up the details of religious or health issues.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bush Administration Yanked PBS Cartoon for Showing Lesbian Couples [Re: SoopaX]
    #3697654 - 01/29/05 11:38 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Lets say that it's five people who are planning an orgy. All of them are hugging and kissing each other in a way that would be acceptable for children to view heterosexual couples. Good or bad? Or too "mature' for their mindsets?

That's a dumb question. "Planning an orgy" in a manner that would be acceptable for children to view if they were heterosexual couples?

Do you even think before typing?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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